Need help IDing Sword found on battlefield.

[Gen. Breckinridge]

This sword was recently found on the Civil War battlefield at Marion VA. I don't think that a CW sword could have lasted this long in this good condition and think it is probably a WWI or later sword that was lost, maybe by some kid playing with it. My hunting buddy thinks it is a reproduction. It measures 38" overall and has a brass insert in the blade near the hilt that says PROOF on it. The scabbard is in fairly good condition with only one place rusted through. We soaked it in oil for several days before knocking the scabbard off and revealing the blade. Although rusted the blade is in pretty good condition. There are no other marks other than the PROOF on the brass insert that we can find. The brass insert is set into a hole in the blade but the hole does not go all the way through the blade. That's about all I can tell you about it. Any info will be apprecitated.

 

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[NGE]

Well said BB! Not to be continued.........NGE

 

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[texan connection]

Excellent work SWR

 

[Montana Jim]

As long as it's not like the "dem boards" discussion we'll all be okay.

Excellent sword and great possibilities about it's history!

I wonder why the leather is gone... The leather up here in Montana lasts forever on top of the ground... I find shoe leather well over 130 years old.

Maybe being fishskin has something to do with it? Here are some nice pictures of the grip:

Fish skin? How very interesting...

Those are great pics.

Now... I've re-read all the posts again and have to agree the questions SWR raised are good ones. It's so easy to imagine the particulars about the items posted here, but really - all we can ever usually do is assume about their past.

The what's are easy, the when, why and who's are almost always speculation.

Not every bullet was fired during a war - more where fired at food and such... you know what I mean?

 

[La Beep]

Hmm....

Europe and the American Civil War

The war had a direct bearing on the United States' foreign relations and the relations that were most important were those with the two dominant powers of Europe, England and France. Each country was a monarchy, and a monarchy does not ordinarily like to see a rebellion succeed in any land. (The example may prove contagious.) Yet the war had not progressed very far before it was clear that the ruling classes in each of these two countries sympathized strongly with the Confederacy-so strongly that with just a little prodding they might be moved to intervene and bring about Southern independence by force of arms. The South was, after all, an aristocracy, and the fact that it had a broad democratic base was easily overlooked at a distance of three thousand miles. Europe's aristocracies had never been happy about the prodigious success of the Yankee democracy. If the nation now broke into halves, proving that democracy did not contain the stuff of survival, the rulers of Europe would be well pleased.

 

[ivan salis]

ah thank you swr for providing the visual "proof" via the link you recemtly provided that my ID was 100% spot on -- 1827 /1845 "rifle regiment" with "proof" insert -- so my information was not misinformation at all as to the ID.

now as far as the "possible" id as to who carried it goes -- that was solely my veiw -- as you say "it not CSA marked" -- which another one of the artilcles you provided said was the way folks used to deemed if a sword it was "rebel" or not -- it said that method was a "inadquite and often inaccurate" way to do it.

I must say that I agree with SWR's nitpicking approach on this (thats why SWR used this approach -- he just loves to be "right" all the time )--using this approach unless something was "found etched in the blade --it is unprovible" thus prove it --prove it-- prove it-- over and over again --- since you can not with out a name etched on it or other 100% for sure csa markings--say --this sword without any doubt belong to a confederate officer once upon a time. however with that being said

I grant that SWR has the right to question my ID of the find ( which has been shown to be 100% correct) and my thoughts on who carried it ( on which we disageree --so be it)-- healthy debate demands that it be so.

However I do question SWR' s "attack mode" and negative tone evident form his first post where he stated *"they allow you to dig on a battlefield"? --* thus he questioned both the legality of the find and the finder's morals -- by basically saying ---oh your hunting illegally aren't you? -- this type of attack was totally uncalled for and if I'm not wrong is a voilation of "terms of use" rules -- where it clearly states that members ARE NOT to question others finds personally BUT are to inform the MOD's who check up on such matters. ( *since it was later proved the find was indeed legally found -- I think an apology is due from SWR to the finder of the item for the "insult" put forth )

I respectfully think that you you can say this -- due to historically known factors --and the swords placement upon the battlefeild where it found -- there is a much higher % of probility that this sword is confederate rather than union. this I would "stick to my guns" on. and is my unchanging point of veiw --to which I am entitled. -- strictly my own personal thoughts on the subject nothing more.---- with which most folks tend to agree it seems.

 

[rgecy]

Without some document to prove its existince or some record of its loss, there is absolutely no way to prove it came from that site or was carried by Union, Confederate, or my great, great grandmother's cousin's, nefew's, brother twice removed!

Certainly using Ivans theory will most like lead you in the right direction, but there are still so many variables that there is no way you can absolutely say with 100% certainty it came from here or there. But, like Ivan said, you can with good percentage say it most likely came from a Confederate Officer who was either killed or captured.

For me though, I would like to see picts of it being dug out of the ground. Actually, I am not so sure that it is a period piece. That area of the country is known to have moist soil conditions and this piece looks like it has been down there for maybe 10 years if that. I have more rust on my truck! I am definitely skeptical seeing how pristine the condition is.

Gen. Breckenridge, it its definitely a great find, but please have someone authenticate it. It could add alot more to its value and would certainly help resolve this debate.

Good luck and keep the finds coming!

RGecy

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I believe this may be a feud between two members. It happens. It needs to be dropped for the good of the site. I have had a "feud" type of experience myself with someone else and we agreed to delete and ignore each other.

Great find Gen. Breckinridge. Great ID Ivan.

I think it is possibly Confederate, but not proven. I think everyone realizes this.





Could we hear more details of this find.? ...depth, ...detector used, ...etc. Did I miss it?

 

[Gen. Breckinridge]

At some time between the war and when the sword was found there was a barn at the sight that the sword was found. It is no longer there but the sword was found mostly on top of the ground and must have been in the barn for a while. The land has grown up in briars and weeds with some small trees standing where the barn once stood. As best I can tell the barn was torn down some time in the 1940s. I was using a Whites MXT detector when the sword was found, and like I said above it was mostly on top of the ground but under bush and weeds. This is, as it has always been, private land and I was the only person that I know of that had permission to hunt there. Recently the land has been sold and it is in corporate hands. A new building will be going up on the site in the spring as well as a large parking lot so anything remaining will be lost.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

interesting... thank you for the story... i still say banner.

 

[Alchemy]

Fascinating thread, watching ivan & SWR square off. I’ve actually lost interest in the sword (j/k )

With what I’ve read it would seem to me there is a greater probability of it being a Confederate then not. But, I’d only give it a 60 to 70% chance because SWR also brings interesting facts.

Unless the owner of this sword were going to try to document it, sell it or put it on loan to a museum, with the information of it being a Confederate sword as fact, what possible difference could it make?

If a paper is attached to it stating that it “may” be Confederate, with a bit of history on the area it was found, let people draw their own conclusions or do their own fact finding. Keep it factual and not say for fact who it belonged to, then everyone is happy to just view it and think about our history

If the owner were to list it on eBay it would in fact “not” be pulled if they were to say it “may or could be Confederate”, with giving the history of where it was found (all or as much of the history one can find...staying within documented facts)

I simply see it as a wonderful find, I enjoyed reading the history of the area it was found in and find the probability of it being from a Confederate soldier very interesting.

 

[CRUSADER]

If the owner were to list it on eBay it would in fact “not” be pulled if they were to say it “may or could be Confederate”, with giving the history of where it was found (all or as much of the history one can find...staying within documented facts)

I agree with what your saying, but ebay was not a good example. You can claim what you want on ebay & as long as they get there share then very few things get pulled. Especially when it come to fake relics etc I have seen many fakes reported & ebay do nothing.

 

[kansas coin hunter]

i know its a jonny reb sword my uncle found one in ga nice find on the sword i sayyyyyyyy banner allway

 

[detector de metales]

I think the "Bear Theory" is probable.. LOL
Nice Find Gen!
Amazing.. Let yourself dream.. immerse yourself in the history!
Happy Hunting
J2

 

[ipsilateral]

This is an unbelievable find. I have no trouble at all believing that it is authentic and from the Battle at Marion. I have found things in the Virginia soil that are Revolutionary War period that looked even better than this. So, no doubt it is real. I personally would be psyched to find this. It's great. Just think about the man who carried it and what it took to wrest it from his grip. This is truly a fantastic thing to dig up. Most of us will never find a battle relic of this caliber.

One thing: someone said it doesn't have "providence". I would completely disagree with that. Provenance, however, I think can be established.

Cheers!