Need help IDing Sword found on battlefield.

[Gen. Breckinridge]

This sword was recently found on the Civil War battlefield at Marion VA. I don't think that a CW sword could have lasted this long in this good condition and think it is probably a WWI or later sword that was lost, maybe by some kid playing with it. My hunting buddy thinks it is a reproduction. It measures 38" overall and has a brass insert in the blade near the hilt that says PROOF on it. The scabbard is in fairly good condition with only one place rusted through. We soaked it in oil for several days before knocking the scabbard off and revealing the blade. Although rusted the blade is in pretty good condition. There are no other marks other than the PROOF on the brass insert that we can find. The brass insert is set into a hole in the blade but the hole does not go all the way through the blade. That's about all I can tell you about it. Any info will be apprecitated.

 

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[ivan salis]

show me a site (any site) that says differant --score Ivan 1 site -- SWR 0 sites --- (asyou would say "prove" differantly)---now tell you what why don't you just call em and ask what historical sources they got their infomation from? --- I'm quite sure they would just love to talk with you.

you must be very popular and get invited to lots of parties -- because folk just love a nitpicker --that must be right always no matter what -- and even if the face of reason showing hes wrong will not admit it --- yep you must be mr popularity no doubt about it --

 

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[Montana Jim]

We do know the British Observers existed... as did observers from mexico, and who knows where else?

I found pictures of some armed, some not, swords and sidearms, but also wearing slouch hats and such so I can't say for sure who was who or if Americans were also in the pics.

http://www.civilwarphotos.net/files/foreign.htm

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Your more than welcome swr!!1 Not sure what all this is about,the guy asked for a id. on a sword, and ivan found it for him....I guess some people just like to nag,so i will throw this in for fun. http://wesclark.com/jw/foreign_soldiers.html

 

[relichunters]

I really don't think its a reproduction, due to how long its been in the ground. It remained intact. Also remember that they used different material in their weapons then they do now. Like quarters were 40% silver, and now they are mostly copper. Different material has different effects in the ground over time.

 

[hollowpointred]

i for one would like to see it authenticated. if it is indeed civil war vintage this post should be a Banner find. who knows a reputable arms expert they can recommend?

 

[relichunters]

I really don't think its a reproduction, due to how long its been in the ground. It remained intact. Also remember that they used different material in their weapons then they do now. Like quarters were 40% silver, and now they are mostly copper. Different material has different effects in the ground over time.

I don't think anyone here is saying the sword is a repo. The discussion is about falsely labeling it as a Confederate issue sword.

Well some have guessed it might be a repo. But I think its not. This is just my opinion of it.

 

[Sir Digs-A-Lot]

SWR & Ivan,
Maybe the sword handle was covered with jam and a bear swiped it from a Union camp. After gnawing the leather off the handle he abandoned it where it sat all these years. Unless there is a website claiming that bears did not do such a thing, it remains a possibility that this is a Union sword.


p.s. - Awesome find Gen B

 

[ivan salis]

please note the location of the find was only occupied by confederate forces during the battle of marion, va --the finder of the sword stated the location the sword was found at was the far end of the confederate trench line . in front of the bridge * that crosses the river ---the confederates held that area preventing union troops from crossing the river --since to do that they had to use a bridge which was under direct fire from the confederate trenches --thus the union advance was "stalled" --- however the confederate forces ran low on ammo --which forced them to abandon the trenches in the middle of the night --union forces did not find out that the rebels had withdrew until daylight -- the union forces then crossed the river and hurried down the road to saltville to destroy their objective --the salt works at saltville --- thus the trench area in marion ,va where the sword was found DID NOT have union troops in it only confederates --the sword was most likely lost during the confederate bugout in the darkness. --- Ivan

as the great writer mark twain said "The rule is perfect : in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane "

 

[texan connection]

Posting to follow this thread Great find weather it s civil war or not.

 

[ivan salis]

simply ask yourself one question which is more likely? -- the union troops had orders to advance to saltville to destroy the salt works -- so once the trenches were abandoned by the confederates and no gunfire was coming from them the union troops had no "reason" to go there since thier mission was to advance across the bridge and go down the road to saltville --not to go lolly gagging in the trenches.

on a % of probility basis which is more likely? confederate or union in your veiw ? I say confederate is by far the more likely of the two. but swr will of course will disagree well there is no name on it -- and you can not "prove" it is --and so on till hell freeezes over -- I say hell theirs lots of stuff you can not "prove"( especially if the person doesn't want to believe you in the first place) --- but I know common sense lets folks know one thing is more likely than another.

boittom line I say I think its a confederate sword --- SWR says theres no way to know for sure -- ta dah --end of drama aslo bottom line without any doubt --its a great find in my view and I do think its real.

 

[Montana Jim]

Maybe some kid lost it in 1913 when he was playing with his uncle's old sword in the field...

 

[ivan salis]

yep jim yer right -- but stil using the most likely % basis method it would be it was his old confederate * uncle's sword since mostly former confederates lived in that area. Ivan

 

[NGE]

Nice find........ To be continued!

 

[ivan salis]

SWR please note * the sword is not a 1822 / 1845 model --the first 1822 models were "pipe back" blade until in 1845 when the wilkinson "fuller" blade design was adopted replacing the "pipe back" blade design (differant metal (brass) was used in the hilt and the hilts had differant "cartouche" as well ---

the sword is a british made 1827 / 1845 infantry feild officer modelof the "rifle regiment"* style (*see the strung bugle "cartouche" -- its the hilt symbol of the "rifle regiments" swords)--- its agothic style hilt made of steel which was allowed for the "rifle regiments" in 1827 with an 1845 type wilkinson fuller blade with the "proof" insert ( thus it was made after 1845 *) and since in war stated in 1861 about 15 years later it was not "outdated" in the least ----

in war if you need weapons you use what ever is in stock or deliverible "right away" -- confederate officers (who often bought their own equiptment) or the confederate govt would not have said to the english -- oh no since they are not CSA marked we can't use them to kill yankees so I'll just do without till you get some csa marked ones--- in war you use whatever you have got to fight with --during the war south often faced shortages of war material --and used whatever they could get --- a weapon --any weapon was better than none at all -

 

[Silver Searcher]

Hi all.....been reading this thread with some interest, does it really matter which side it comes from, the sword to me looks genuine,and looks like it's been in the ground for over 150 years and there for is a peice of great American history and right fully belongs on the Banner

 

[GL]

Up top with it.
Banner of course, the sword is sweet and a battlefield relic therefore awesome no matter who carried it. The evidence suggests the Confederacy had a liking for this sword which makes it double cool.

 

[olepossum]

i used to participate in living history events for the fur trade period and quit because of guys like him wanting to count stitches in my clothes and made sure it was pure tin with lead sloder in my eating pans and cups and the stock of my rifle had to be a certain length and the color of my leather pants had to be off white or gold tan it is people like him that drive good people out of hobbies

 

[hollowpointred]

swr is a bitter man that has probably not found anyhting that he can brag about and wants no one to find anything that has any historical value to it since him and his buddy cant agree on where the confederate treasurey is buried and who is going to get at it first the fella hunter found it and he didnt so he has to slam everyone in the head with the where is the historical documentary i used to participate in living history events for the fur trade period and quit because of guys like him wanting to count stitches in my clothes and made sure it was pure tin with lead sloder in my eating pans and cups and the stock of my rifle had to be a certain length and the color of my leather pants had to be off white or gold tan it is people like him that drive good people out of hobbies

aw come on, he aint that bad! lol! just a little spirited debate! seriously though, whether its confed or nothern doesnt matter so much to me as authentic or not authentic because if its the real deal, it deserves to be on the banner bigtime!

 

[GL]

Honestly any sword that is found is awesome to me.

I mean come on people, it's a SWORD!

 

[The Master Chief]

BANNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!