My abbreviated theory for the Knights Templar treasure in Nova Scotia

[ECS]

I think the point ECS is making is that coir buried/submerged in 1810, when tested 200 years later could very well give REPEATED erroneous readings (off by as much as 1,000 years) as to Carbon 14 testing.
That is why every lab includes not only a "time span" but also a probability of accuracy.
There is very little to do to determine exactly how much effect salt water, or minerals in the water may effect the readings. NONE provide an accuracy of 100%, which is what is required to be considered "FACT".
Any % less can only honestly be stated to be an "estimate", or "supposed"...
As more evidence presents itself, you must consider ALL evidence, not just what you WANT to use, then the hypothesis can be changed or modified, even rejected.
Once it is sufficiently supported, forwards, backwards, upside-down...
your hypothesis can be presented as a thesis or dissertation, to be reviewed and critically analyzed by your peers and experienced experts.

With all these various claims of a Templar voyage to bury a treasure on Oak Island based solely on de Chalon's hearsay testimony of 18 galleys set to sea from La Rochelle and bits of coconut coir found on Oak Island is very weak evidence to base a premise or hypothesis which has NO other outside connection or collaboration beyond unfounded scattered and unrelated asserted conclusions forced fitted in support of a flawed premise.
Those who promote this pseudohistory ignore all facts that can bring their version into question, and will never present their claims in the form of a dissertation thesis for critical professional academic review.

 

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[Raparee]

I don't have to do any of that! The dated coconut coir that only they could have brought from the Eastern Mediterranean during the correct time period proves (at least to an unbiased observer) they didn't sink, and that a few Templar vessels arrived in the "so-called" New World in that time frame.

Cheers, Loki

You have been saying this for years, and in all that time you have not once explained why this coir (assuming that it is coconut coir, and that the dating is correct — both shaky assumptions) HAS to be Templar in origin, to the exclusion of every other group who would have had access to the material.

 

[ECS]

You have been saying this for years, and in all that time you have not once explained why this coir (assuming that it is coconut coir, and that the dating is correct — both shaky assumptions) HAS to be Templar in origin, to the exclusion of every other group who would have had access to the material.

The answer to that is quite elementary, any other group would not fit the narrow Loki premise parameter requirements.

 

[lokiblossom]

You have been saying this for years, and in all that time you have not once explained why this coir (assuming that it is coconut coir, and that the dating is correct – both shaky assumptions) HAS to be Templar in origin, to the exclusion of every other group who would have had access to the material.

Sure I have, 178 times on this thread alone! But, one more time (not shaky assumptions btw), access to manufactured "coir" was only in the Eastern Mediterranean during the correct time period and the Templars were based in the Eastern Mediterranean for 200 years during that same period. Any vessels they owned (which was a large fleet of several different types of vessels) would have used materials available in the Eastern Mediterranean (except for the few that sailed back and forth from France carrying pilgrims, that's one or two). They had excellent opportunity and reason to firstly sail vessels to France in early 1307 and known to have sailed those vessels away from France (escaped) later in 1307. Any other countries that were based in the Eastern Mediterranean were not making exploratory voyages at the time and would certainly have recorded it if they had, as did everybody when such voyages began a hundred years later. Even the Vikings recorded their voyages in the 10th century and onwards.

Although coconut coir is what the Templars that had been based in the Eastern Mediterranean used it is a fact that hemp from Europe was a better choice for ships riggings and lines. Any vessels from Europe would have used hemp and also would have recorded their voyages.

Any other group would not fit the narrow Loki premise parameter requirements.

Cheers, loki

 

[Raparee]

Sure I have, 178 times on this thread alone! But, one more time (not shaky assumptions btw), access to manufactured "coir" was only in the Eastern Mediterranean during the correct time period and the Templars were based in the Eastern Mediterranean for 200 years during that same period. Any vessels they owned (which was a large fleet of several different types of vessels) would have used materials available in the Eastern Mediterranean (except for the few that sailed back and forth from France carrying pilgrims, that's one or two). They had excellent opportunity and reason to firstly sail vessels to France in early 1307 and known to have sailed those vessels away from France (escaped) later in 1307. Any other countries that were based in the Eastern Mediterranean were not making exploratory voyages at the time and would certainly have recorded it if they had, as did everybody when such voyages began a hundred years later. Even the Vikings recorded their voyages in the 10th century and onwards.

Although coconut coir is what the Templars that had been based in the Eastern Mediterranean used it is a fact that hemp from Europe was a better choice for ships riggings and lines. Any vessels from Europe would have used hemp and also would have recorded their voyages.

Any other group would not fit the narrow Loki premise parameter requirements.

Cheers, loki

Yeah, I’m familiar with your story. It still does not tell me what it is about the coir found on OI that would lead a rational person to conclude that it could only have been deposited by the KT.

 

[ECS]

...
Any other group would not fit the narrow Loki premise parameter requirements.

In other words, there exists NO proven connection of the coir found on Oak Island to the Templars outside of Loki's imagination.

 

[lokiblossom]

Sure I have, 178 times on this thread alone! But, one more time (not shaky assumptions btw), access to manufactured "coir" was only in the Eastern Mediterranean during the correct time period and the Templars were based in the Eastern Mediterranean for 200 years during that same period. Any vessels they owned (which was a large fleet of several different types of vessels) would have used materials available in the Eastern Mediterranean (except for the few that sailed back and forth from France carrying pilgrims, that's one or two). They had excellent opportunity and reason to firstly sail vessels to France in early 1307 and known to have sailed those vessels away from France (escaped) later in 1307. Any other countries that were based in the Eastern Mediterranean were not making exploratory voyages at the time and would certainly have recorded it if they had, as did everybody when such voyages began a hundred years later. Even the Vikings recorded their voyages in the 10th century and onwards.

Although coconut coir is what the Templars that had been based in the Eastern Mediterranean used it is a fact that hemp from Europe was a better choice for ships riggings and lines. Any vessels from Europe would have used hemp and also would have recorded their voyages.

Any other group would not fit the narrow Loki premise parameter requirements.

Cheers, loki

Any rational person, even if they did not accept this as proof, at the very least would have to conclude it was the most likely!

Love you guys for helping me to keep this story alive, and the Mods for allowing it to stay alive.

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

Any reasonable person, Loki, at the very least would conclude that the coir samples found on Oak Island were too corrupted and contaminated for truly accurate carbon-14 dating and were most likely flotsam and jetsam debris possibly washed ashore from from passing shops or from the Halifax rope manufacture established in 1810, W M Stair & Co, that imported coconut coir from the Middle East.
A truly national person would not present a premise built upon rationalization of found coir to support a nondocumented and unaccepted by the academic community as evidence of a voyage of Templars to Nova Scotia.

 

[Raparee]

Any rational person, even if they did not accept this as proof, at the very least would have to conclude it was the most likely!

Love you guys for helping me to keep this story alive, and the Mods for allowing it to stay alive.

Cheers, Loki

No. No rational person would conclude that it is the most likely conclusion, considering that there is absolutely nothing material to lead them to that conclusion.

It’s wishful thinking, nothing more.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

To quote myself regarding who was active in the Mediterranian in the 14th Century:

No one else? The Portuguese, the Scandinavians, the Catalans, the Almohad Cephalate (Spain & Morocco), the Netherlanders/Flanders, the French, the Venetians, the Genovese, etc. had the ability. The Portuguese fishermen had settlements there in the time period - and the reason was the Grand Banks and what is now known as the Flemish Cap; but labeled "Bacalhau" - Codfish. And further west is '

Terras do Bacalhau'. The Land of the Codfish. Newfoundland? There is an Island between Labrador and Newfoundland named "Baccalieu". But that's just "codfish". There's also a Balcalhoa Island off eastern Newfoundland.

Though it does show the Portuguese knew where to find what, and therefore had a reason to go there.

If there were reason to believe any significance in fibers found on a shoreline on Oak Island then there is no reason to narrow it down to Templars. No evidence anyone did much on Oak Island except folks after the 18th Century. At least the Basque, Catalans and Portuguese fisherman had the knowledge of the area and reason (fishing) to visit the area.

 

[ECS]

Any rational person, even if they did not accept this as proof, at the very least would have to conclude it was the most likely!

"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact"- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
The obvious fact being NO recorded documented voyage of Templars to Oak Island/Nova Scotia

"Eliminate all other factor, and the one which remains must be the truth"- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Without any documented record or direct evidence of a Templar presence on Oak Island, they were never there.

"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, must be the truth"- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
All that was found were samples of coir, and since 1810 a Halifax, Nova Scotia rope manufacturer imported coir from the Middle East.

Without any hard direct evidence of a Templar voyage to or activity on Oak Island, the found coir samples from Smith's Cove are most likely flotsam and jetsam washed ashore from that Halifax manufacturer of rope, or jettisoned from a passing fishing boat or ship.
Rationalized reasoning where one makes something untrue appear plausible and reasonable to justify one's belief in lore and myth as fact, whereas seductive reasoning as exemplified by Doyle's quotes above, are conclusions derived from intensive research of documented facts, events, and localized contributing conditions criteria that support the reasoned conclusions.

 

[lokiblossom]

"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact"- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
The obvious fact being NO recorded documented voyage of Templars to Oak Island/Nova Scotia

"Eliminate all other factor, and the one which remains must be the truth"- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Without any documented record or direct evidence of a Templar presence on Oak Island, they were never there.

"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, must be the truth"- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
All that was found were samples of coir, and since 1810 a Halifax, Nova Scotia rope manufacturer imported coir from the Middle East.

Without any hard direct evidence of a Templar voyage to or activity on Oak Island, the found coir samples from Smith's Cove are most likely flotsam and jetsam washed ashore from that Halifax manufacturer of rope, or jettisoned from a passing fishing boat or ship.
Rationalized reasoning where one makes something untrue appear plausible and reasonable to justify one's belief in lore and myth as fact, whereas seductive reasoning as exemplified by Doyle's quotes above, are conclusions derived from intensive research of documented facts, events, and localized contributing conditions criteria that support the reasoned conclusions.

There you go again, claiming that "coconut coir" scientifically dated to before the 14th century was used by a manufacturing company in Halifax after 1810. Don't you realize how degraded and useless that material would be? Lol!

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

There you go again, claiming that "coconut coir" scientifically dated to before the 14th century was used by a manufacturing company in Halifax after 1810. Don't you realize how degraded and useless that material would be? Lol!

You seem to ignore that fact that coir left behind from the 14th century would be much more degraded, contaminated, and useless for actual accurate Carbon-14 dating than a sample from a nearby 18th century coir rope manufacturer.
No matter how many times you mention these coir samples, it will never be accepted as evidence or proof of Templars setting foot on Oak Island with collaborating evidence of a Templar voyage across the Atlantic, of which there is none.
Present hard documented evidence that such a voyage occurred, NOT de Chalon's hearsay, Poussin's painting, Anson's Shugborough garden folly, Rahn's Cathar Grail romance dreams, or other of the scattered unrelated "facts" fabrications linked into a chain of fantasy speculation, because your oft posted Carbon-14 coir proves absolutely nothing concerning Templars in Nova Scotia.
Remember, Loki, when you have eliminated all the unrelated improbable speculation of totally imaginary connections that are impossible, what remains, must be the truth.

PS: I NEVER stated that WM STAIR & Co of Halifax EVER used 14th century coir in their rope manufacturing, but your statements concerning this gross misrepresentation of facts provide an equivocal example on how you arrive at your dubious conclusions presented as fact.

 

[lokiblossom]

You seem to ignore that fact that coir left behind from the 14th century would be much more degraded, contaminated, and useless for actual accurate Carbon-14 dating than a sample from a nearby 18th century coir rope manufacturer.
No matter how many times you mention these coir samples, it will never be accepted as evidence or proof of Templars setting foot on Oak Island with collaborating evidence of a Templar voyage across the Atlantic, of which there is none.
Present hard documented evidence that such a voyage occurred, NOT de Chalon's hearsay, Poussin's painting, Anson's Shugborough garden folly, Rahn's Cathar Grail romance dreams, or other of the scattered unrelated "facts" fabrications linked into a chain of fantasy speculation, because your oft posted Carbon-14 coir proves absolutely nothing concerning Templars in Nova Scotia.
Remember, Loki, when you have eliminated all the unrelated improbable speculation of totally imaginary connections that are impossible, what remains, must be the truth.

PS: I NEVER stated that WM STAIR & Co of Halifax EVER used 14th century coir in their rope manufacturing, but your statements concerning this gross misrepresentation of facts provide an equivocal example on how you arrive at your dubious conclusions presented as fact.

Sure it would be much more degraded, but don't you think the scientists at Beta Analytic took that into account? Or do you really think they are stupid?

Of course a voyage occurred, besides de Chalons testimony the vessels did disappear, this itself proves a voyage.

And yes, you did claim that the "coconut fibre" found on Oak Island and dated to before the 14th century could have come from the WM Stair & Co of Halifax which was founded in 1810. My math tells me "that fibre" would be at least 500 years old before the WM Stair & Co was even founded.

Cheers, Loki

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Or the samples were contaminated by seawater intrusion and compared to an invalid database from where it was collected rather than where it grew using incorrect sample ratios/background levels and very improperly dated.

All that Carbon-14 testing does is produce the ratio of existing Carbon-13 ions to Carbon-14 ions present in a sample. Nothing else. The rest is "technique" based on the labs matching it to databases of regional trends based on similar prior analyses. If seawater containing a heavy concentration of Carbon-13 ions soaks in it skews the ratio to make a sample appear "older" (i.e. the surface water of the Atlantic Ocean tests 400 years old right now). Easily a 400 or 500 year range with a contaminated sample of unknown origin (assuming found on Oak Island but not present there while still "alive" and metabolizing Carbon).

"Correcting for isotopic fractionation, as is done for all radiocarbon dates to allow comparison between results from different parts of the biosphere, gives an apparent age of about 400 years for ocean surface water."

Aitken, Martin J. (2003). "Radiocarbon Dating". In Ellis, Linda (ed.). Archaeological Method and Theory. New York: Garland Publishing. p.61

 

[ECS]

No, Loki, I did NOT claim that the WM STAIR & Co coconut coir was 500 years old that is either your jumping to wrong conclusions by misunderstanding what I posted or a deliberate attempt to misconstrue and misrepresent the information I actually posted.
What I posted (please pay close attention, you too Franklin) WM STAIR & Co of Halifax, Nova Scotia, imported coir from the Middle East for their rope manufacturing which is documented, AND would probably be the logical source of coir found on Oak Island than left behind coir debris from a purely speculated Templar visit based on that found coir and de Chalon's hearsay of 18 galleys setting to sea from La Rochelle, which sorely lacks additional collaboration, and NO documentation of any Templar voyage across the Atlantic to Oak Island for any purpose or reason.
The coir found on Oak Island and BETA ANALYTIC's questionable dating results does not prove in any way the Templars ever set foot there, nor does 18 galleys set to sea from La Rochelle prove that Templars voyaged to Nova Scotia because these ships "disappeared".
That is purely speculation and assumed supposition, and NOT considered as evidence or proof by any professional academic scholar or researcher.

All you have ever presented, Loki, are random facts forced fitted to fill the large holes in your unfounded and unsupported by real history flawed conclusions in a far from coherent fabulous fantastic fantasy fable of Templars on Oak Island.
Is it because of this obvious lack of real hard documented evidence, that you and others who promote undocumented pseudohistory nonsense as fact, disparage and blatantly misrepresent facts derived from real research from real history with real provenance and documentation?

 

[Raparee]

Of course a voyage occurred, besides de Chalons testimony the vessels did disappear, this itself proves a voyage.

Even if we were to accept de Chalons testimony as truth (and there is no reason to), and even if we were to accept that some vessels did disappear (and there is no reason to), even if we were to accept that the Templars did take those “missing vessels on a voyage” (and there is absolutely no reasonable reason to), there is still nothing whatsoever that indicates they landed on Oak Island.

 

[lokiblossom]

Even if we were to accept de Chalons testimony as truth (and there is no reason to), and even if we were to accept that some vessels did disappear (and there is no reason to), even if we were to accept that the Templars did take those “missing vessels on a voyage” (and there is absolutely no reasonable reason to), there is still nothing whatsoever that indicates they landed on Oak Island.

de Chalons did testify, that is a fact, and there is no reason for him to have lied. The vessels did disappear, that is also a fact, and the "coir" dated as such and on Oak Island proves that is where "some" went. But, you are somewhat correct, and I should change my statement to reflect it as it only proves some Templar vessels landed on Oak Island with not necessarily Templars sailing them. So you win I guess!

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

No, Loki, I did NOT claim that the WM STAIR & Co coconut coir was 500 years old that is either your jumping to wrong conclusions by misunderstanding what I posted or a deliberate attempt to misconstrue and misrepresent the information I actually posted.
What I posted (please pay close attention, you too Franklin) WM STAIR & Co of Halifax, Nova Scotia, imported coir from the Middle East for their rope manufacturing which is documented, AND would probably be the logical source of coir found on Oak Island

BETA ANALYTIC's questionable dating results

And again this claim of yours tells me you think the "coconut fiber" used by the WM Stair & Co of Halifax (that was not founded until the 19th century) would have been the source of the coir found on Oak Island that had been dated to before the 14th century. So you are in fact claiming that company must have used coconut fiber that was over 500 years old to manufacture the coir!

As far as Beta Analytic's dating, it was done several times and at least once by a different company (for a possible third, I don't know what company the Lagina's used). The only way it could be flawed is if those who produced the "coir" for testing would have traveled the world looking for old coconut fibers until in their opinion they found some that were degraded enough to believe that they were from before the 14th century, had samples tested by a different source until they had the ones dated as such, after which they submitted them to Beta Analytic. All this while still believing themselves that the whole Oak Island mystery involved 17th or 18th century pirates. I don't think so ECS!

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

In response to the many times you asked on this thread, "If not by the Templars, how else would coconut coir be found in Oak Island".
Well I presented the answer to your question, and its not my fault that you don't like that possibility that has gotten you spinning out of control manipulating my statements as you do with facts to support an unproven Templar voyage to Nova Scotia.
As many times as you quote BETA ANALYTIC'S conclusion, you neglect other C-14 dating labs that encompass a wider date range that include the period of that Halifax ropemaking activities.
C-14 data in the scientific community is always cross referenced by other labs and test before acceptance of a time window.
The MAJOR flaw with always using BETA ANALYTIC as evidence of a Templar presence on Oak Island is their findings DO NOT establish HOW or by WHOM these coir samples came to be on Oak Island, that connection, my fried Loki, arises from your imaginative construction of random scattered facts that lack a true coherent connection force fitted piece by piece to arrive at an unproven conclusion considered as pseudohistory by mainstream professional historians, academics, and researchers of real history.
Loki, you can not completely rule out the possibility that the found Oak Island coconut coir samples were environmentally contaminated which would skew the testing conclusions, which other labs have shown in their dating analysis, or their origin being from the nearby Halifax importer of coir for rope manufacture.