More smoke and mirrors from the state.

[Oakview2]

This issue has been settled by the Federal supreme court, which the waterboard said that farmers who took water from a river, irrigated crops and returned the water, were not polluting the river. Settled law will always prevail over regulation. Sorry I don't have the case, but it is my understanding that Judge Ochoa did not allow the waterboard to be removed from the state, even though they the state tried.

 

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[Goldwasher]

Dude, I'm not gonna link you to your own links you linked. I read the info on the site you just posted several years ago. Knowing better I looked deeper and found the other link you gave. "Water Quality Certification" "For Dredged OR Fill Materials".... question # 1 "What is a water quality certification?" by scope and description never required for small scale dredging in California or placer operations. "

[URL]http://water.epa.gov/lawsregs/lawsguidance/cwa/dredging/index_dredged.cfm​

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[/URL]

[URL]http://www.fws.gov/habitatconservation/cwa.htm​

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[/URL]

[URL]http://www.icmj.com/article.php?id=1515&keywords=Are_Permits_Needed_For_Highbanking_In_California?​

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[/URL]

[URL]http://plp2.org/forums/showthread.php?79-Activities-not-considered-suction-dredging​

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[/URL]

 

[chlsbrns]

This issue has been settled by the Federal supreme court, which the waterboard said that farmers who took water from a river, irrigated crops and returned the water, were not polluting the river. Settled law will always prevail over regulation. Sorry I don't have the case, but it is my understanding that Judge Ochoa did not allow the waterboard to be removed from the state, even though they the state tried.

The farmer must have had riparian rights.

The act states:

A riparian right entitles the landowner to use a correlative share of the water flowing past his or her property. Riparian rights do not require permits.

 

[chlsbrns]

Dude, I'm not gonna link you to your own links you linked. I read the info on the site you just posted several years ago. Knowing better I looked deeper and found the other link you gave. "Water Quality Certification" "For Dredged OR Fill Materials".... question # 1 "What is a water quality certification?" by scope and description never required for small scale dredging in California or placer operations. "

[URL]http://water.epa.gov/lawsregs/lawsguidance/cwa/dredging/index_dredged.cfm​

​

[/URL]

[URL]http://www.fws.gov/habitatconservation/cwa.htm​

​

[/URL]

[URL]http://www.icmj.com/article.php?id=1515&keywords=Are_Permits_Needed_For_Highbanking_In_California?​

​

[/URL]

[URL]http://plp2.org/forums/showthread.php?79-Activities-not-considered-suction-dredging​

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[/URL][/links]

I didn't look at the links. They have nothing to do with the governing docs. The governing docs are the porter cologne water quality control act

http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/laws_regulations/docs/portercologne.pdf

And the clean water act.

http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/laws_regulations/docs/fedwaterpollutioncontrolact.pdf

Enough has been posted for everyone to decide for themself. I don't see any reason to keep repeating myself and posting the same links.

 

[Goldwasher]

They are links to the actual documents your links reference.How do the governing docs have nothing to do with the governing docs? I linked to the E.P.A source of the clean water act . And the fish and wildlife site the other body who regulates. There are so many definitions being disregarded. Waste.. waste discharge, Navigable waters...... Again it must be stated that the statement " Hi-banking in California is illegal" is just not true. And does not require several permits or thousands of dollars to be done. Yet, If you are hi-banking and disregard cerain criteria you could get in trouble. None of the revisions changed any of the technical aspects of the law.....Complaining about smoke and mirrors while polishing the mirror and adding green pine branches helps no one. PLEASE anyone who is interested read all the links provided from me and chlsbrns.....read them several times cross reference and read again. He is right there is enough info to make your own decision. The same info that has been available for a long time. the only change has been agency spin and fear mongering. Will they take your application and fee and then tell you you don't need it YES!!!!!!!

 

[Goldwasher]

The farmer must have had riparian rights.

The act states:

A riparian right entitles the landowner to use a correlative share of the water flowing past his or her property. Riparian rights do not require permits.

You mean like prospectors an claim holders also have....

 

[chlsbrns]

You mean like prospectors an claim holders also have....

Do you really believe that claim holders have riparian rights?

Private Property OWNERS (can possibly) have riparian rights. Claims are not private property owned by citizens. Prospectors are people they are not privately owned land.

 

[dredgeman]

Yes Claim owners are private inholders the same as private property holders. We own the minerals in the ground and the right to get our property out.

We have called the waterboard in Kalif and sent letters and received letters that claim owners have riparian rights

The real problem in Kalif is that soon not even private property will have any rights.

 

[chlsbrns]

Yes Claim owners are private inholders the same as private property holders. We own the minerals in the ground and the right to get our property out.

We have called the waterboard in Kalif and sent letters and received letters that claim owners have riparian rights

The real problem in Kalif is that soon not even private property will have any rights.

Whomever you spoke to or sent you letters was mistaken.

State Water Resources Control Board

www.swrcb.ca.gov/laws_regulations/docs/wrlaws.pdf

 

[dredgeman]

Thanks for the links
Nice reading.

In the context of the statutes read about court cases and pre existing rights that are recognized today by the water board.
Or read the part about court cases from the past have not been replaced by the statutes.
Water rights cases extend back a long ways.

Storm over Rangelands is a good history of water rights in the west. by Hagge The rancher that retains his water rights to this day even though he is dead.

last we have been to court over water rights to a well my family owns. It is its own entity and even if we do not own the property, we still own the water rights to the well (in the desert)

The swrcb just got water quality in Calif and as yet most of their decrees are untested in court.

 

[Goldwasher]

Whomever you spoke to or sent you letters was mistaken.

State Water Resources Control Board

www.swrcb.ca.gov/laws_regulations/docs/wrlaws.pdf

Sorry, But you are mistaken.

 

[goldenmojo]

I am ignorant of the law in this case. All I know is the green suits on the green raft floated by a couple of weeks ago and claimed hi-banking was legal and acceptable on the river they were patrolling.

 

[chlsbrns]

It's been posted that highbanking is legal... WITH A PERMIT!

Here is an article about a guy in Oregon who was fined for discharging in violation of the clean water act.

Oregon gold miner faces fine

 

[Goldwasher]

" discharging pollutants into a stream" " two mining pits" " a berm and a road".....in a restored area on a salmon creek in Oregon. That's way more than "Hi-banking" way more than casual use. He would be required to file an N.O.I and P.O.O. sounds like this guy knows less about Mining and environmental laws than most.His problem will add to ours. Still doesn't make hi-banking illegal.

 

[chlsbrns]

Highbanking isn't illegal if you have a permit.

 

[chlsbrns]

I am ignorant of the law in this case. All I know is the green suits on the green raft floated by a couple of weeks ago and claimed hi-banking was legal and acceptable on the river they were patrolling.

What did they do? While floating by they felt a need to tell you that highbanking was legal?

 

[Aufisher]

What did they do? While floating by they felt a need to tell you that highbanking was legal?

Yes and that it needed to be removed by nightfall.

 

[chlsbrns]

Yes and that it needed to be removed by nightfall.

So highbanking is only legal during the day? I can't find any statute that says that.

Seriously... Discharging of pollutants into a waterway is illegal. Their definition of pollutants includes soil and rocks. They allow discharge onto dry land with a permit.

 

[57chevy]

What everyone needs to realize is that all the agencies, states, etc., you are talking about are private corporations, and this has been going on since 1787.
Hard Evidence of Corporate Takeover at All Levels
of Government in America, as Well as of the United
Nations – DUNS NUMBERS FOR EACH STATE IS
BELOW.
Hard Evidence of Corporate Takeover at All Levels of
Government in America, as Well as of the United Nations
Dunn & Bradstreet (D&B) DUNS code number are assigned to corporations in America to track their
credit ratings. Below you will find the DUNS numbers for the aggregate US government and each of its
major agencies, those of the aggregate governments of each US state along with that of its largest city,
and those of the aggregate United Nations and some of its major agencies. These corporate code
numbers can be verified by using the following link to the D&B website and typing in the required
information: D&B D-U-N-S® Number Lookup - D-U-N-S Number Search - Dun & Bradstreet Credibility Corp.
In checking DUNS code numbers for governments, you will find that they have many subsidiaries and
shell corporations to lessen financial accountability. You will find that some of them are listed as being in
a geographical location other than in their territorial authority, making their operations even more
suspicious. The City of Chicago corporation, for example, is located in Washington, DC, the State of
Montana Corporation is located in Chicago, Illinois and the State of Maine corporation – listed with
seemingly sardonic humor as “State-O-Maine Inc.” – is located in New York City, New York. You will
often also see executive, legislative and judicial offices themselves listed as corporations.
Manta.com is a website for obtaining data on corporations. If the names of any of these government
entities are entered, you will find that virtually all of them are listed as private, for–profit
corporations. You will also see in the aggregate valuations of their assets that Manta.com provides is
vastly greater than what is listed in these private government corporations’ fraudulent but well-publicized
budget documents that seek to justify draconian but fraudulent budget cuts and their related tax-based
extortion rackets.
This confirms that many hundred trillions of dollars of the people’s money listed in the semi-secret
government comprehensive annual financial reports (CAFRs) as government institutional investments are
being siphoned off by the global banking cartel and those sinister forces behind it.
They are doing this via that obscure subsidiary of the private, for-profit Federal Reserve System known as
the Depository Trust Clearing Center (DTCC), dba Cede Inc. (Again, note the sardonic humor.) This
semi-secret entity fraudulently confiscates these investment funds as an executor after they have been
registered by brokers, relegating investors to mere beneficiaries whose funds can then be lawfully – at
least according to presently and commonly used Universal Commercial Code (UCC)-based statutory law,
not constitutional or common law -- confiscated at the will of said executor.
The implications of this are staggering: not only has this corporate subversion of government happened
in America and with the United Nations headquartered here, but it has happened in almost all of the
nations of the world by means of similar corporate subversion enacted under different names. This
definitely explains why governments at all levels in almost all nations no longer protect the public interest,
but only special interests – specifically, the interests of their fellow predatory for-profit corporations whose
actions are now destroying this planet and all life upon it.
This explains why the people of the world are soon going to see sweeping constitutionally-based legal
and law enforcement actions in all of the nations of the world against those who, unrepentantly abusing
these ill-gotten gains, have perpetrated crimes against nature and humanity. This also explains the
honest transitional governments and financial systems that are going to be installed as the callous,
corrupt human systems of the past collapse. The new transparent governmental and financial models
now being tested in the nation of Iceland, as well as the likewise poorly publicized/contextualized mass
resignations of government, banking and corporate officials now occurring worldwide are heralds of these
imminent planetary events.
DUNS Numbers of the US Corporate Government and Most of Its Major Agencies
United States Government-052714196
US Department of Defense (DOD)-030421397
US Department of the Treasury-026661067
US Department of Justice (DOJ)-011669674
US Department of State-026276622
US Department of Health & Human Services (HHS)-Office of the Secretary-112463521
US Department of Education-944419592
US Department of Energy-932010320
US Department of Homeland Security-932394187
US Department of the Interior-020949010
US Department of Labor-029536183
US Department of Housing & Urban Development (HUD)-Office of the Secretary-030945779
US Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)-931691211
US Transportation Security Administration (TSA)-050297655
US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)-056622429
Bureau of Customs & Border Protection (CBP)-796730922
Federal Bureau of Immigration & Customs Enforcement (ICE)-130221646
US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)-057944910
National Aeronautics & Space Administration (NASA)-003259074
National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)-079933920
US Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC)-364281923
Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)-037751583
Federal Communications Commission (FCC)-020309969
US Securities & Exchange Commission (SEC)-003475175
US Public Health Service (USPHS)-039294216
National Institutes of Health (NIH)-061232000
US Centers for Disease Control & Prevention (CDC)-927645465
US Food & Drug Administration (FDA)-138182175
US Internal Revenue Service (IRS)-040539587
Federal Reserve Board of Governors (Fed)-001959410
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)-878865674
National Security Agency (NSA)-617395215
US Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA)-167247027
Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Firearms & Tobacco (BAFT)-132282310
Federal Bureau of Land Management (BLM)-926038563
Federal Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA)-926038407
DUNS Numbers of Each US Corporate State and Its Largest City
State of Alabama-004027553
State of Alaska-078198983
State of Arizona-068300170
State of Arkansas-619312569
City of Birmingham-074239450
City of Fairbanks-079261830
City of Phoenix-030002236
City of Little Rock-065303794
State of California-071549000
State of Colorado-076438621
State of Connecticut-016167285
State of Delaware-037802962
District of Columbia-949056860
State of Florida-004078374
State of Georgia-069230183
State of Hawaii-077676997
State of Idaho-071875734
State of Illinois-065232498
State of Indiana-071789435
State of Iowa-828089701
State of Kansas-827975009
State of Kentucky-828008883
State of Louisiana-0612389911
State of Maine-061207536
State of Maryland-847612442
State of Massachussetts-138090548
State of Michigan-054698428
State of Minnesota-050375465
State of Mississippi-008210692
State of Missouri-616963596
State of Montana-945782027
State of Nebraska-041472307
State of Nevada-123259447
State of New Hampshire-066760232
State of New Jersey-067373258
State of New Mexico-007111818
State of New York-041002973
State of North Carolina-830979667
State of North Dakota-098564300
State of Ohio-034309166
State of Oklahoma-050411726
State of Oregon-932534998
State of Pennsylvania-933882784
State of Rhode Island-008421763
State of South Carolina-067006072
State of Tennessee-04143882
State of Texas-002537595
State of Utah-009094301
State of Vermont-066760240
State of Virginia-047850373
State of Washington-079248936
State of West Virginia-828092515
State of Wisconsin-001778349
State of Wyoming-832826015
City of Los Angeles-159166271
City of Denver-066985480
City of Bridgeport-156280596
City of Wilmington-067393900
City of Washington-073010550
City of Miami-965299576
City of Atlanta-065372500
City of Honolulu-828979612
City of Boise-070017017
City of Chicago-556057206
City of Indianapolis-964647155
City of Davenport-963855494
City of Wichita-069862755
City of Louisville-943445093
City of New Orleans-033692404
City of Portland, Maine-071747802
City of Baltimore-052340973
City of Boston-007277284
City of Detroit-021733631
City of Minneapolis-009901959
City of Jackson-020864955
City of Kansas (City)-832496868
City of Billings-068925759
City of Omaha-926604690
City of Las Vegas-019342317
City of Manchester-045009073
City of Newark-019092531
City of Albuquerque-129962346
City of New York-021741036
City of Charlotte-809275006
City of Bismarck-080245640
City of Columbus-010611869
City of Oklahoma (City)-073131542
City of Portland (Oregon)-054971197
City of Philadelphia-929068737
City of Providence-069853752
City of Columbia-878281562
City of Memphis-051386258
City of Houston-967421590
City of Salt Lake City-017096780
City of Burlington-037442977
City of Virginia Beach-074736299
City of Seattle-009483561
City of Charleston (West Virginia)-197931681
City of Milwaukee-004779133
City of Cheyenne-021917273
DUNS Numbers of the United Nations Corporation and Some of Its Major Corporate Agencies
United Nations (UN)-824777304
UN Development Program (UNDP)-793511262
UN Educational, Scientific, & Cultural Organization (UNESCO)-053317819
UN World Food Program (UNWFP)-054023952
UN International Children's Education Fund (UNICEF)-017698452
UN World Health Organization (WHO)-618736326

 

[Clay Diggins]

This is the complete act including... "complete text with 12-28-2012 revisions, effective 1 January 2013"

http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/laws_regulations/docs/portercologne.pdf

And the federal clean water act including...[Updated to include 2011 Amendments]

http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/laws_regulations/docs/fedwaterpollutioncontrolact.pdf

You can lead a horse to water...

Nowhere in any of those laws is hibanking even mentioned much less prohibited - with or without a permit.

The 9th Circuit court has ruled twice in the last 10 years that putting material that came out of a stream back into the stream is not pollution.

Why does that matter to California?

From the laws you quote above chlsbrns:

§ 13050. Definitions
(d) “Waste” includes sewage and any and all other waste
substances, liquid, solid, gaseous, or radioactive,
associated with human habitation, or of human or animal
origin, or from any producing, manufacturing, or
processing operation, including waste placed within
containers of whatever nature prior to, and for purposes
of, disposal.

(k) “Contamination” means an impairment of the quality
of the waters of the state by waste to a degree which
creates a hazard to the public health through poisoning or
through the spread of disease. “Contamination” includes
any equivalent effect resulting from the disposal of waste,
whether or not waters of the state are affected.

(l)(1) “Pollution” means an alteration of the quality of the
waters of the state by waste to a degree which
unreasonably affects either of the following:
(A) The waters for beneficial uses.
(B) Facilities which serve these beneficial uses.
(2) “Pollution” may include “contamination.”


§ 13373. Definitions
The terms “navigable waters,” “administrator,”
“pollutants,” “biological monitoring,” “discharge” and
“point sources” as used in this chapter shall have the same
meaning as in the Federal Water Pollution Control Act
and acts amendatory thereof or supplementary thereto.

The WHOLE law is based on water contamination by waste.

Read the definition of waste again and then ask yourself... Should I rely on a government agency for my legal advice?

On to the miner's right to the water necessary to mine.

First - the miner has riparian rights that supersede the State's right to regulate water use. Hibanking, in almost all cases take place on federally titled lands.

In dealing with water rights, the riparian doctrine states that water belongs to the person whose land borders a body of water. Riparian owners are permitted to make reasonable use of this water provided it does not unreasonably interfere with the reasonable use of this water by others with riparian rights.

Second the miner has a specific federal statutory right to the water needed to mine.
From the 1866 Mining Act:

SEC. 9. And be it further enacted, That whenever, by priority of possession, rights to the use of water for mining, agricultural, manufacturing, or other purposes, have vested and accrued, and the same are recognized and acknowledged by the local customs, laws, and the decisions of courts, the possessors and owners of such vested rights shall be maintained and protected in the same; and the right of way for the construction of ditches and canals for the purposes aforesaid is hereby acknowledged and confirmed: Provided, however, That whenever, after the passage of this act, any person or persons shall, in the construction of any ditch or canal, injure or damage the possession of any settler on the public domain, the party committing such injury or damage shall be liable to the party injured for such injury or damage.

Now you've got several high court opinions, federal law, state law and riparian rights all pointing to the simple fact that a handout by the water control board ignores the facts and law in favor of a power grab.

I've studied western water law and history for more than 40 years. What the waterboard is claiming in that hibanking handout is not law nor can they implement it under the current laws. Just more agency BS.