More Bigscoop Tid Bit

[bigscoop]

Here's some more interesting fact for you all. I wonder how many of you are aware that Richmond and Lynchburg held a long standing relationship with the Secret Service that dated all the way back to the early 1800's. Yep, it's true, some of these participants even being involved in the tobacco trade. And to add even more curiosity to this fact is the following summary of some the activities of these individuals;

After endless research efforts it is discovered that some of the routine activities of these secret service individuals included things like the gathering of intelligence, the transporting of secret documents, the establishing of secure lines of vital communication, and you're going to love this next one....and the collecting and breaking of enemy codes (this last one actually included in the gathering of intelligence.) In 1885 a mysterious narration is published in Lynchburg, Richmond being referenced as a location where important business affairs were taking place, this publication also including ciphers. Except for the two main character's in the narration all other first names have been omitted, the unknown author also determining to omit his own identity. Between the public and the narration's source there is also a middleman in place.

Coincidence?

 

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[ECS]

There was no Secret Service in the United States until it was formed as a part of the Department of Treasury, July 5, 1865.
The first director was William P Wood, who was sworn in by Sec of Treasury Hugh McCulloch.
The Confederacy did not have an "official" secret service, except for what was organized and run by CSA Sec of State, Judah P Benjamin.
It was Benjamin who handed Ward's cousin, CSA Major E S Hutter , his personal copy of Vattel's Law of Nations, used as a Confederate code book, in Danville, Virginia after the fall of Richmond.

 

[franklin]

There was no Secret Service in the United States until it was formed as a part of the Department of Treasury, July 5, 1865.
The first director was William P Wood, who was sworn in by Sec of Treasury Hugh McCulloch.
The Confederacy did not have an "official" secret service, except for what was organized and run by CSA Sec of State, Judah P Benjamin.
It was Benjamin who handed Ward's cousin, CSA Major E S Hutter , his personal copy of Vattel's Law of Nations, used as a Confederate code book, in Danville, Virginia after the fall of Richmond.

I beg to differ ECS. The Secret Service as a part of our government was formed on July 5, 1865 but there were agents that worked for the President and agents that worked for other members of government. My ancestors were Secret Service and guarded General George Washington at Valley Forge before there ever was a President of the United States elected by the people. We had several Provisional Presidents before President George Washington. The Provisional Presidents were appointed by the Continental Congress. George Washington became our first President of the United States because he was elected by popular vote by the people in the colonies.

My great great great grandfather was a Secret Service Agent during the Civil War and he was a bodyguard for President Abraham Lincoln and President Jefferson Davis. He was relieved of guard duty by Secretary of War Edwin Stanton the night President Abraham Lincoln was assassinated. That is why I know and believe that Secretary of War Edwin Stanton was in on the assassination. Another Secret Service Agent gave John Wilkes Booth's diary to Secretary of War Edwin Stanton and he testified that all the pages of the diary was intact when he handed it over to Secretary Stanton. So guess who tore the pages out of John Wilkes Diary? The Secret Service or the beginnings of it came over from England and had been in existence of guarding their Kings and the Kings before them. The first Thomas Beale that came over to the Colonies was sent by the King as he was a member of the Knights of Malta.

 

[masterpoe]

I beg to differ ECS. The Secret Service as a part of our government was formed on July 5, 1865 but there were agents that worked for the President and agents that worked for other members of government. My ancestors were Secret Service and guarded General George Washington at Valley Forge before there ever was a President of the United States elected by the people. We had several Provisional Presidents before President George Washington. The Provisional Presidents were appointed by the Continental Congress. George Washington became our first President of the United States because he was elected by popular vote by the people in the colonies.

My great great great grandfather was a Secret Service Agent during the Civil War and he was a bodyguard for President Abraham Lincoln and President Jefferson Davis. He was relieved of guard duty by Secretary of War Edwin Stanton the night President Abraham Lincoln was assassinated. That is why I know and believe that Secretary of War Edwin Stanton was in on the assassination. Another Secret Service Agent gave John Wilkes Booth's diary to Secretary of War Edwin Stanton and he testified that all the pages of the diary was intact when he handed it over to Secretary Stanton. So guess who tore the pages out of John Wilkes Diary? The Secret Service or the beginnings of it came over from England and had been in existence of guarding their Kings and the Kings before them. The first Thomas Beale that came over to the Colonies was sent by the King as he was a member of the Knights of Malta.

Good show, Mr F
History

 

[bigscoop]

There was no Secret Service in the United States until it was formed as a part of the Department of Treasury, July 5, 1865.
The first director was William P Wood, who was sworn in by Sec of Treasury Hugh McCulloch.

ECS, you are obviously very weak in this particular area of American history. Per example, you will find official references to the Secret Service in 1807, 1811, 1812, etc., etc., etc. They were particularly active during the Chesapeake Crisis and the War of 1812. As early as 1812 the United States even had a designated Secret Service budget of $50'000 which was eventually used to purchase a series of fraudulent letters from J. Henry. There is official record of both Monroe and Jackson utilizing the Secret Service, and I could go on and on. So if it didn't officially exist prior to 1865 you have a lot of explaining to do.

Incidentally, you also hold that there was no Jackson Ward until after reconstruction, however, this isn't entirely true either. It may not have been officially recognized as such until official ceremony but it certainly existed in recognizable reference before that.

 

[bigscoop]

Per more example, during the Civil War both the north and the south had active Secret Service, but at the culmination of that war the country had to become unified again, which lead to many of the "ceremonies" you reference, all of this being part of reconstruction efforts.

As for Jackson Ward, do you really believe that it was surveyed and chartered and ceremony held all in a single day? Not far from me now I can quickly think of two towns that are well known in the region, though you won't find any signs on the adjacent highways designating them as such. This is because these towns, these small communities, have resisted "incorporation". Until recently you wouldn't even find them on state maps and GPS didn't even recognize their existence at all. Yet, these two towns have been in place even before my birth. So I think you are relying far too much on simple ceremony in your pursuit of arguments.

Here's another reference out of hundreds just like them; "he continued in the business, and is now head of the firm of (removed) doing a large and lucrative business. (removed), he was on special detail in the secret service, till forced by disability to leave the army,...." There exist literally hundreds (that I know of) of examples just like this, some of these pre-dating the Civil War by 50 years, or more.

Also, as to the above reference, this was a gentleman who resided in Lynchburg, frequently traveling between this city and Richmond, this period also including 1862. In fact, this individual even died in Lynchburg. So to even suggest that there was no Secret Service until 1865 and that there was no Secret Service presence in Lynchburg is quite the uninformed statement. The reality, however, as is backed up by many such references as those few I have presented, is quite the opposite, indeed.

 

[bigscoop]

One more note of interest, though I cannot offer any particulars (names). Both Spain and the United States had acquired intelligence in regards to Galveston Island by way of their separate secret service activities. Just a curious sidebar, perhaps?

 

[ECS]

I was referencing an "official" government agency called the Secret Service, a Federal agency that is part of the Treasury Department.
Masterpoe's link on post# 4 confirms the information I posted.
Now, as for secret missions and intelligence gathering that were conducted under early administrations, yes they did occur, but not as an official organized government agency called the SECRET SERVICE.

 

[ECS]

Per more example, during the Civil War both the north and the south had active Secret Service, but at the culmination of that war the country had to become unified again, which lead to many of the "ceremonies" you reference, all of this being part of reconstruction efforts...

Here's another reference out of hundreds just like them; "he continued in the business, and is now head of the firm of (removed) doing a large and lucrative business. (removed), he was on special detail in the secret service, till forced by disability to leave the army,...." There exist literally hundreds (that I know of) of examples just like this, some of these pre-dating the Civil War by 50 years, or more.

Also, as to the above reference, this was a gentleman who resided in Lynchburg, frequently traveling between this city and Richmond, this period also including 1862. In fact, this individual even died in Lynchburg. So to even suggest that there was no Secret Service until 1865 and that there was no Secret Service presence in Lynchburg is quite the uninformed statement. The reality, however, as is backed up by many such references as those few I have presented, is quite the opposite, indeed.

The reality is that Allan Pinkerton headed the UNION INTELLIGENCE SERVICE during the Civil War.
The same with CSA Sec of State Judah P Benjamin for the Confederacy, which also include the signal corps, torpedo corps, etc.- near the end of the War, the Confederate Congress voted to create a "Confederate Secret Service".
Yes, Bigscoop, both sides did have individuals involved in "secret service", but neither had an official agency by that name.

 

[bigscoop]

The reality is that Allan Pinkerton headed the UNION INTELLIGENCE SERVICE during the Civil War.
The same with CSA Sec of State Judah P Benjamin for the Confederacy, which also include the signal corps, torpedo corps, etc.- near the end of the War, the Confederate Congress voted to create a "Confederate Secret Service".
Yes, Bigscoop, both sides did have individuals involved in "secret service", but neither had an official agency by that name.

.....you're a hoot....for sure. Then how, dare I ask, do you explain overwhelming fact, documentation, record, etc., of the existence of even "a Secret Service budget" in the amount of $50'000 as early as 1812? And if there was no Secret Service prior to 1865, as you blindly continue to insist, then why would events like Supreme Court Justice Marshall's opinion concerning the use of the Secret Service be a documented fact? And so on and so on..... Is all of this, in your theoretical world, just fiction too? I mean, if it is all just fiction and never existed then why did it very clearly exist? I think on this issue you're simply in denial of the cold hard facts that are a matter of historical records you're simply not familiar with at all.

 

[bigscoop]

"The times were propitious: war fever was spreading through the country, save New England, and President James Madison had adopted a policy of brinkmanship. Madison saw in the Henry disclosures a perfect opportunity to unite the country for war and to discredit the Federalist opposition. The bargain was struck on 7 Feb. 1812. In return for the papers, Henry would receive the princely sum of £18,000 ($90,000). The entire secret service budget voted by Congress, $50,000, was paid to him. The remainder, $40,000, would be made up by Crillon, who in a flourish of generosity deeded to his friend an ancestral estate, “St. Martial,” in Gascony and in his capacity as knight of Malta made Henry his squire."

Note that this Secret Service budget was even voted by Congress, so if there was no such thing as a Secret Service in 1812 then you really need to inform historians and even Washington about this so they can remove all of that type nonsense from numerous official documents and such until that year 1865 when, according to you, that it really all existed. Next, you need to go online and you need to inform all the genealogical and ancestry resources about these same historically inaccurate and fraudulent documents that countless researchers have been duped by.

Seriously though, now there are several interesting points maintained within the above quote/information, however, one that might not be so readily noticed "by some" is the fact that this "official 1812 budget", this "Congressional Aware Secret Service budget", was used to....."buy intelligence", however fraudulent it might have actually been. But in these events there can be absolutely no disputing the fact that a Secret Service existed, that it maintained a budget, and that the gathering of intelligence was included in that designated budget.

 

[ECS]

Well tell us, Bigscoop, who ran or was the head of this 1812 Secret Service, and explain how it was a known government agency.
...or was it a buget that was to be used as discretionary secret service by the sitting President, such as Madison and Monroe?
...and then, What has this to do with Ward's 1885 Beale Papers dime novel job pamphlet?

 

[ECS]

"The times were propitious: war fever was spreading through the country, save New England, and President James Madison had adopted a policy of brinkmanship. Madison saw in the Henry disclosures a perfect opportunity to unite the country for war and to discredit the Federalist opposition. The bargain was struck on 7 Feb. 1812. In return for the papers, Henry would receive the princely sum of £18,000 ($90,000). The entire secret service budget voted by Congress, $50,000, was paid to him. The remainder, $40,000, would be made up by Crillon, who in a flourish of generosity deeded to his friend an ancestral estate, “St. Martial,” in Gascony and in his capacity as knight of Malta made Henry his squire."

Note that this Secret Service budget was even voted by Congress, so if there was no such thing as a Secret Service in 1812 then you really need to inform historians and even Washington about this so they can remove all of that type nonsense from numerous official documents and such until that year 1865 when, according to you, that it really all existed. Next, you need to go online and you need to inform all the genealogical and ancestry resources about these same historically inaccurate and fraudulent documents that countless researchers have been duped by.

Seriously though, now there are several interesting points maintained within the above quote/information, however, one that might not be so readily noticed "by some" is the fact that this "official 1812 budget", this "Congressional Aware Secret Service budget", was used to....."buy intelligence", however fraudulent it might have actually been. But in these events there can be absolutely no disputing the fact that a Secret Service existed, that it maintained a budget, and that the gathering of intelligence was included in that designated budget.

This should provide an answer, prepared by the CIA as a school study guide:
https://www.cia.gov/kids-page/6-12th-grade/operation-history/history-of-american-intelligence.html

 

[bigscoop]

This should provide an answer, prepared by the CIA as a school study guide:
https://www.cia.gov/kids-page/6-12th-grade/operation-history/history-of-american-intellegence.html

I get a 404 error....?

 

[bigscoop]

Here, try this link;

https://www.cia.gov/kids-page/6-12th-grade/operation-history/history-of-american-intelligence.html

And you are correct, it explains quite a bit in regards to the Secret Service funding, etc. Of special interest, as it might apply to the 1812-1822 period and also the Beale mystery, is the brief explanation of "covert" Secret Service "operations" employed in Florida and elsewhere during that period of the Adams Onis Treaty, etc. Though I didn't have this same link/information I was already privy to a great deal of it and also other events that weren't referenced. This is why I have posted what I have.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

One more note of interest, though I cannot offer any particulars (names). Both Spain and the United States had acquired intelligence in regards to Galveston Island by way of their separate secret service activities. Just a curious sidebar, perhaps?

Yes, the Lafitte Bros were spies for BOTH America & Spain... with "Number Codes", like 007; the WOMEN, TOO! Heh...

 

[bigscoop]

In most of the research that I have pursued in regards to the current topic there resides two difficulties that can't be overcome, both of these ECS has made/provided indirect reference to. The first is the term “covert operations” and the second was his well applied word, “discretionary”. From what I can tell the president, and others, including generals, could use these funds at their own discretion for “clandestine operations”. Obviously this also, from what I can tell, allowed these leaders to determine on their own what was to be classified/considered as clandestine.

The other thing that is encountered from time to time is the broad use of "Secret Service", such as, per example, "during this period he was involved with a secret service mission." Now this statement doesn't actually place this individual as having been Secret Service, but rather it only indicts him as having taking part in a secret service action. This is where a lot of the confusion resides during these early years, the phrase "secret service" not so much indicative to an organization but rather an action of secret service. Yes, there existed a secret service fund, and yes, this fund was used to run clandestine operations, and yes, there was "a lot" of secret service action. So in essence, there was a Secret Service but it appears that the participants were often part of a revolving door policy depending on what covert action was desired.

 

[franklin]

In most of the research that I have pursued in regards to the current topic there resides two difficulties that can't be overcome, both of these ECS has made/provided indirect reference to. The first is the term “covert operations” and the second was his well applied word, “discretionary”. From what I can tell the president, and others, including generals, could use these funds at their own discretion for “clandestine operations”. Obviously this also, from what I can tell, allowed these leaders to determine on their own what was to be classified/considered as clandestine.

The other thing that is encountered from time to time is the broad use of "Secret Service", such as, per example, "during this period he was involved with a secret service mission." Now this statement doesn't actually place this individual as having been Secret Service, but rather it only indicts him as having taking part in a secret service action. This is where a lot of the confusion resides during these early years, the phrase "secret service" not so much indicative to an organization but rather an action of secret service. Yes, there existed a secret service fund, and yes, this fund was used to run clandestine operations, and yes, there was "a lot" of secret service action. So in essence, there was a Secret Service but it appears that the participants were often part of a revolving door policy depending on what covert action was desired.

Several secret expeditions were sent to the Southwest to expel the Spanish from Mexico. There was even a Secret Patriot Army with over 60,000 US citizens serving in the Mexican Army most in the Third Division and about 1,500 of these Republican Army of Texas were killed at the Battle of Medina. Dr. John Robinson was escorting 40,000 rifles and kegs of gun powder to General Toledo when he heard of the massacre. Dr. John Robinson was a General in the Patriot Army appointed secretly by the President. He went to Sante Fe with Lt. Zabulon Pike. Imagine a General taking his orders from a Lt. But any way a lot of this was talked about in one of my CD books. Rebel KGC should have a copy. Dr. John Robinson took all of his patriots to the Battle of New Orleans even though Governor Claiborne as well as all the other Governors had orders to arrest them. That was a cover or vail placed on the whole operation of Dr. John Robinson by the President. I wish I had all of the secret service work done during that time. I do have Dr. John Robinson Journal that I had to order a copy from some University but I can not remember which one.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

In most of the research that I have pursued in regards to the current topic there resides two difficulties that can't be overcome, both of these ECS has made/provided indirect reference to. The first is the term “covert operations” and the second was his well applied word, “discretionary”. From what I can tell the president, and others, including generals, could use these funds at their own discretion for “clandestine operations”. Obviously this also, from what I can tell, allowed these leaders to determine on their own what was to be classified/considered as clandestine.

The other thing that is encountered from time to time is the broad use of "Secret Service", such as, per example, "during this period he was involved with a secret service mission." Now this statement doesn't actually place this individual as having been Secret Service, but rather it only indicts him as having taking part in a secret service action. This is where a lot of the confusion resides during these early years, the phrase "secret service" not so much indicative to an organization but rather an action of secret service. Yes, there existed a secret service fund, and yes, this fund was used to run clandestine operations, and yes, there was "a lot" of secret service action. So in essence, there was a Secret Service but it appears that the participants were often part of a revolving door policy depending on what covert action was desired.

SECRET MISSIONS...?!!! Y'all are ready for Attorney Larry C. Hinson's book... THE SECRET MISSION OF THOMAS JEFFERSON BEALE... GREAT book! Larry died a couple of years ago, & we exchanged e-mails before he did... HIGHLY recommended!

 

[bigscoop]

Franklin, what was the 1819-1821 individual value of each of the two alleged deposits? Roughly 1 million each, or there abouts?