more BIG BROTHER

To sell copper here in Hawaii you have to produce a reciept that you bought the item that they copper came from. If you don't have a reciept you have to get a notorized letter from the person you got the copper from. This basically makes it impossible to sell copper from scrapping. I have been hording mine in tubs and will sell it on the mainland when I get back. For those who are not going back, I guess they just throw everything in the dump. Are we not about to ruin our economy to "save" the planet? I guess its OK to not recycle because some crack head might steal scrap.
 

When people steal stop signs, yield signs, other regulatory signs and sign posts to cash in for scrap...it is time to do something

Book 'em Dano. Yea, do something ... bust the thieves. AFTER THE CRIME. Further, what is the source of your abhorrence to this crime? Is there a mass of toddlers crossing the street being massacred by drivers not stopping at stop signs? Not yielding? Was a traveler forever lost, facing a horrific death because of being lost due to a missing sign post.

The goal here is deterring crime.

I search and I search ... yet I have not found anywhere in the US Constitution that that is the goal of government ... their charge, their objective. Namely, deterring crime. Their charge is to do no such thing. Their charge is to not use the guns of the State to impinge upon my personal liberties and freedoms. They have no charge. Get it? They are restricted - that is, of course, providing that their are enough of the 'Anti-Big Government' folks around to outvote you.

No, buddy, that is not the goal. It may be your goal, but it is a foolish and naive one based in utopian dreams of precisely how you think the world should work. You ain't sharp enough dude. Nobody is. And a goal that alot of blood has been shed to avoid. That was the goal of elements like The Stasi - to deter crime. You welcome The Police State apparently.

Crime cut back? Hell, we can cut crime way, way back. Let us consult the likes of Pol Pot, Stalin, etc.

And for the finale, again:

Some of you guys seem to be dragging over the political soapbox.

The goal here is deterring crime. Doesn't that sound more plausible?

Political soapbox. Wow. How careless you are with words. Much blood was spilt to avoid this type of intrusion into people's lives. Not a political soapbox buddy, but rather the efforts of those like me in this thread and others to prevent your naive foolishness from demanding more blood be shed from future generations to fend off and shed the incrementalism and assualts on personal freedom those like you encourage. How whimsically you throw it all away.

Naivete carries a significant price. So does the onslaught of incrementalism. Yo are not very astute for a Treasure Hunter.
 

In Oregon, you now need a permit to even haul the metal

I was blown away after visitng Oregon about 8-9 years ago, stopped at the first gas station, and was blown away to learn that it was ILLEGAL for me to pump my own gas. Got out of the car, grabbed the nozzle, and was looked at like I just robbed a bank.

Apparently I am too stupid to pump my own gas and was forced, at the point of a gun (doubt me? try to pump your own gas in Oregon and see if somebody calls the cops - with guns) to PAY somebody else to do so.

Ridiculous. Can't have anyone doing anything illegal or hurting anyone with a gas pump, right SWR?

I find a consitent theme among vistors to Colorado - 'Where are your guardrails?'

Apparently, in other parts of this Union of Individual States, they put perfectly good scrapable metal up everywhere?

If we don't need gaurdrails out here, why is it a problem for citizens reclaiming their wasted tax dollars?

Maybe there are too many gaurdrails and stop signs SWR. Guys like you don't understand such concepts though, you are much more content to stand behind the men with guns pointed at my face.

Ignorance is bliss, eh?
 

Tebow said:
I search and I search ... yet I have not found anywhere in the US Constitution that that is the goal of government ... their charge, their objective. Namely, deterring crime. Their charge is to do no such thing. Their charge is to not use the guns of the State to impinge upon my personal liberties and freedoms. They have no charge. Get it? They are restricted - that is, of course, providing that their are enough of the 'Anti-Big Government' folks around to outvote you.

All of these laws that are being talked about in this thread are State or Municipal laws, not Federal ones... Senate bill 570 is an Oregon State senate bill... not a US senate bill, so the US Constitution doesn't come into play other than through the Tenth Ammendment which states "Powers not granted to the federal government nor prohibited to the states by the Constitution of the United States are reserved to the states or the people". It's been ruled over and over again based on the Tenth that States can pass laws that in their judgement are necessary as long as it doesn't trample on the US powers. Most State Constitutions have similar clauses that grant powers to Municipalities as long as they don't trample on their State Constitution. I'll leave that for you to research for yourself. I'm not digging into 50 State Constitutions to determine if hundreds of thousands of municpal laws are legal.

Show me where in the US Constitution that it says that the states are not allowed to restrict the sale of scrap metal, and then you'll have an argument.
 

All of these laws that are being talked about in this thread are State or Municipal laws, not Federal ones... Senate bill 570 is an Oregon State senate bill... not a US Senate bill

Yes, I know. Before I tick you off too much, heavy respect for the C-1 avatar - fellow river rat here. I like 'em a little on the bgger size with oars though. Have an Encore, but never did too much with it. [/tangent]

I know. I am a newbie, but I have read this site extensively. To me, it matters not the jurisdiction as they are pretty much all operating the same. The erosion of rights is occurring both locally and federally, in parallel fashion and continously. To talk about one is nothing more than a metaphor for the other - they are interchangeable, IMO. They are all 'The Man' at this point, and, quite frankly, the Fed has had the upper hand for a while. They pull the strings ultimately. That being said citing the Tenth Amendment doesn't hold much water for me. The Tenth Amendment died a long time ago. There are a lot of people in federal prisons who would laugh at the notion of a couple river rats arguing the Tenth Amendment on da net as they are living proof that it does not exist in practice.

I like to defer to the Original, especially in times such as these. Point of technicality taken, but do not lose the forest for the trees and keep those float bags dry.
 

One more thing my fellow whitewater junkie, I would argue, as would others, that this bill is in violation of the Fourth Amendment, more specifically, unreasonable searches. DL info is an unreasonable search IMO. Even worse, the state is passing that task onto another citizen.

The State forcing one citizen to investegate and search the other. Stasi anyone?

So, yes, I cite the US Constition as the ultimate judge in these local cases as the Tenth Amendment does not give the States the right to violate one's Fourth Amendment.
 

Game, match and set and I think my 5 posts to be up until paypal does its 2-3 business day confirmation thingie. See ya'll in afew days.
 

I don't see what the Fourth has to do with it. The Fourth simply states "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized". I don't see anything about 570 that would violate the Fourth, any more than requiring you to get a business license to operate a business violates the Fourth. All they're saying is you have to have a permit to transfer metal, and that you have to wait a while to get paid for it.

We're not talking about unreasonable search and seizure here... we're talking about a criminal coming and stealing the coils out of my air conditioner unit in the middle of the night and selling them for scrap metal with impunity. I'd have been happy if a similar law was in place 25 years ago when the kid next door stole my tool box and pawned it. I found it in the pawn shop, but never could prove it was him because pawn shops didn't keep records back then. I had to pay to get my own tools back.

I'm a businessman. I sell product every day. Most of my customers get 30 day terms. I don't need money "right now" to pay for product that I'm selling today because I have checks coming in from stuff I sold 30 days ago to pay for the new product that I'm buying and selling today. If a law is enacted saying I have to wait for a check for the product I sell, it's no skin off my nose because that's the way I operate anyway. It's a fact of business for almost anybody in a legitimate business. And if it helps reduce crime (and allows me to keep my air conditioner coils), then it's fine with me.

I don't like heavy government intervention in anything, and some laws are just rediculous... but some laws that help reduce crime are beneficial. Make it inconvenient on the criminals without placing a burdon on the honest people... I have no problem with that.
 

And BTW Tebow... off topic, but since you brought it up. Dagger Encore was my first two OC1's. I destroyed both of them over twenty years of paddling. That boat in my avatar is a Dagger Ocoee. 11' long with chines as sharp as a knife. Heck of a play boat, but unforgiving as all get out. You better know how to roll it or you're in trouble in big water. I still OC1 quite a bit, but most of my WW is now guiding rafts on the Ocoee and the Chatooga... paddle rigs, not oar rigs. I've long since surpassed my prime when I could slice the Gauley or New in an OC1 at high water. You won't catch me on anything more than class IV any more.

Okay, back on topic :)
 

Tebow said:
I was blown away after visitng Oregon about 8-9 years ago, stopped at the first gas station, and was blown away to learn that it was ILLEGAL for me to pump my own gas. Got out of the car, grabbed the nozzle, and was looked at like I just robbed a bank.

Apparently I am too stupid to pump my own gas and was forced, at the point of a gun (doubt me? try to pump your own gas in Oregon and see if somebody calls the cops - with guns) to PAY somebody else to do so.

NJ has that stupid law, too.
 

Man, I'm so torn on this issue...

Once upon a time, in another life, I was an avid firearms hobbyist and saw every pathetic pretext used to encroach on peoples freedom to do as they pleased. It really turned the stomach. As such, it honed a rather staunch libertarian instinct that makes me incline towards 'leave them the hell alone' in most all situations.

Here in this life, I live on the industrial side of Chicago within pissing distance of any number of scrap yards and metal recyclers. As expected, 'scrappers' are freaking e-v-e-r-y-w-h-e-r-e in our neighborhood and for the most part, are enormous sh1tbums, patrolling streets and alleys, looking for stuff to steal. Its pretty much standard that you cannot leave anything metal outside, since one of these turds will come by and swipe it and as bigwater pointed out, it's equally common for metal items that must be outdoors (air conditioners, even car parts) are hit. Catalytic Converters are a big one for the platinum content.

Are all scrappers giant dongs like this? Of course not... Does the industry itself lend itself to regulation? I do think so, much like pawn shops, etc. I'd have no problem regulating and licensing scrappers- shrink the business down so the --deleted--bums are forced out and the licensed, honest practitioners can make more money and the industry itself is no longer so fertile for thieves.

When you're in the regular, day to day business of buying stuff that is often the target of theft, I do think there is some reasonable onus to make sure that you're not buying stolen property- or, in the event it is, you can identify who you bought it from- especially in the business of scrap, where gray-area stuff seems to be standard practice amongst so many participants on the selling *and* buying ends.

I never had any opinion on this issue until I moved here to Scrap-Metal Central. In doing so, my opinion formed very quickly. THe next time I see two hobos in a rustbucket 1981 Ford pickup prowling the alleys and looking over peoples back fences to see what's there, I think I'm going to vomit. It's just so standard here.
 

Man thats BS, here in Ohio you have to have a valid ID and they write your car tag down, they dont buy alot of stuff now also, >:(
 

ivan salis said:
the govt wants to know if your making any income thats not being "reported" --once its "recorded" that you sold that scrap metal --they simple check that record vs your income taxes filed --if they do not "match up properly" guess who the IRS will be visiting very soon -- its really simple folks track every means of earning income possible --(including sell scrap metals) thus recording all that income , then tax it. --ah your gubbermint at work --gimme , gimme , gimme

oh and about that "hobby" you do ---coin rolling --you folks selling that "silver" you found ?--are you reporting that "income / gains" from selling that silver to the gubbermint ? if not you too might get ready to see the tax man from your freindly IRS --thats why they are watching the cash flow --
If you report the money you get from coinroll hunting you need to keep track of all the miles you drive and your expenses cause I really doubt you are making much profit when you are driving all over the place and getting skunked over 50% of the time. Fuel food maintence you name it you have to take into account when you go coin roll hunting.
 

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top