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Misc data and adventures of a Tayopa treasure hunter

Thank you everyone for the wishes: Sis, Coazon, Crow, and weekender :notworthy:

Corazon, that Tequila David Reyes - Silver looks a tad expensive . $ 700.00 a bottle when it first came out. Makes my "Ripple" look bad :laughing7:
 

Hi Crow,

Yes it's all very interesting. As you mentioned people from the village Seiyu heard the crash. That area in known as a flood plain. Question is "what distance can one hear a plane crash"? all depends on the day, wind direction - many factors!

With the problems they faced on the plane - who really knows, they obviously didn't have time to radio in - or did they? Did the engines fail, if so did they extinguish them, did the pilots switch the engines off and put in glide mode?

I was a long time ago researching a WWII base hidden in Queensland, Many new spit fire planes, trucks, tanks and many more items were ditched in storage holdings built in the side of mountains and entrances blasted in to close them off. The only way to find this place was by a certain feature they implemented in forests, the run way, they used reinforced mesh on the ground. We found the place and the mesh run way measured 900 meters long by 35 meters wide. We then traveled in the direction Sydney approx 2 km we came across a very large dam, full of water. When we arrived home i mentioned to a friend of mine that we found the run way and a huge dam, he mentioned he would go for a drive up there to have a look - this was the following summer, when he arrived at the dam he and his companion walked up the wall of the dam and noticed a planes rear wing sticking out about a foot. he went back to the car and drove to where i mentioned the run way could be found, after a long day they headed to a small town 280km away, He called me and told what they found at the dam, he mentioned he would go have a closer look the next day early. When they arrived the plane was gone, vanished. he noticed water splashed all over the area, he then drove toward the run way and stopped to speak with 5 aboriginal people, he asked if they saw anything at the dam, they told him these 2 great big helicopters with blades at each end came, soldiers came down with ropes and they took the plane out and went towards NSW but over bush. is there an active base there? who knows.

Just goes to show, be careful what you say on a phone!! I have always wondered what was in that plane. that was back in 1997 and i've never been back.

You gotta love what we do :laughing7:
 

Hi Crow,

Regarding the west African lost plane with gold, did they by any chance consider the wild possibility of the pilots and passengers of the plane actually disappearing intentionally to somewhere remote say to some island(by landing on the beach on the remote side the island) in the Atlantic near the African continent? (I mean somewhere within manageable distance for the plane) Then somehow make their way to the town of that African island and after lying low for a while posing as some tourists, slowly arrange their way to latin America via a ship they could rent or purchase incognito ....Of-course the rich industrialist you mentioned in the plane may not be part of such a plan, but can we be sure of the pilots and the other soldiers?...it was the second world war era when many adventurers pulled many stunts in this regard usually ending in latin America...sorry for being cynical maybe I watched too much Hollywood heist movies lately 8-)8-)

TT
 

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Hello In Australia Jones

I have no doubt the existence of tunnels and equipment you mentioned was part of Australia Chemical weapon reserves from WW2. Up to 1 million bits of ordinance containing either Mustered gas or Phosgene. Ordinance was in various forms.

65 lb Light Case Bomb (United Kingdom)
​
Slightly strengthened 4 gallon kerosene/petrol can with stabilising flag fitted across one end which gave good flight. Measurements, 12.5 x 13 x 22 inches with a 59 lb charging. The bomb would break up and function from any height on any surface such as “downland, concrete, water, loose sand or shingle”. The weapon was adopted as the “standard UK gas weapon” on account of its wide tactical employment and simplicity of manufacture. This bomb, of simple manufacture, was later manufactured in Australia. There were many “live” trials undertaken with the 65 lb bomb.


250 lb Light Case Bomb (United Kingdom)
​
Filled phosgene or mustard. The bomb was designed on the tail ejection principle (after striking the target the liquid is ejected from the tail in the form of a spray that contaminated a belt downwind from the target). The body of the bomb consisted of a solid drawn, or jointed and welded, steel cylinder 0.25 inches thick, to one end of which was lightly welded a tail plate carrying a tapered charging hole and plug. To the other end of the cylinder a hemispherical steel nose about 0.5 inch thick was welded, in the centre of which was welded the burster container. The tail of the bomb, supplied separately, was of the snap-on variety and was assembled at the aerodrome just prior to use. The total overall length of the bomb (including the fuze and tail) was 64.56 inches, and the diameter 12 inches. The weight of the charging was approximately 125.5 lb. A total of 281 were extracted from Marrangaroo Army Base during 2008/2009.


Smoke Curtain Installation (250, 400 & 500 lbs) (United Kingdom)
​
For the purpose of spraying liquid mustard from the air, a spray tank known as a Smoke Curtain Installation was developed. Its primary purpose was to produce casualties by direct anti-personnel attack, but the weapon also possessed other valuable secondary uses depending upon the altitude at which the spray was released. The spray emission was gravity based. The emission pipe consisted of two parts, one short steel pipe welded to the tank (fixed) and an aluminium pipe which was detachable. Each was fitted with bakelite discs at the air inlet which were electrically fired by the pilot. This allowed the mustard to flow from the tank.


30 lb Light Case Bomb (United Kingdom)
​
The 30-lb Light Case Bomb was used to contaminate ground targets such as aerodromes, barracks, factories, docks, supply depots, etc. Its use as an antipersonnel weapon was of secondary importance. Like the 250-lb bomb it was designed so that on impact with the ground, the ejection charge removed the tail plate only, with the contents of the bomb being ejected upwards into the air.


Chemical Special No. 6 (United Kingdom)
​
Chemical Special No. 6 drum had a gross weight of 56 lbs. It was used for charging aircraft bombs including smoke curtain installations; hence it was sometimes referred to as an ISC (Installation Smoke Curtain) drum. In appearance it resembled an old fashioned milk urn.


25 lb Base Ejection Shell (United Kingdom)
​
Gas shells were considered to be of value primarily for harassing the enemy by compelling them to adopt protective measures (wearing of capes and eye shields. The shell body itself was charged with liquid which was ejected through the base by means of a piston. In order to prevent excessive shattering of the liquid the charging was rendered viscous by the addition of a suitable thickening agent. Gross weight 21 to 25 lbs, charged 1.25 to 1.75 lbs. 11,000 yard range.


4.2 Inch Mortar Bomb (united Kingdom)
​
The gross weight of this mortar bomb was 20 lbs of forged steel, and its charge 3.75 lbs of mustard or phosgene. The tail was of a conventional mortar design, holding a primary cartridge which ignited up to six secondaries through 18 vent holes. It was a heavy weapon and could be used in jungle fighting.


M47A2 Aircraft Bomb (United States)
​
A 100-lb bomb with a 73 lb charge of levinstein (United States manufactured) mustard gas.




Most of the dumping episodes occurred after the end of World War II when unused war stocks needed disposal. It appears at least 21,030 tons of Chemical Warfare munitions were dumped into Australian seas at the end of World War II by the United States Army and the defense forces of Australia.

This figure "probably" includes the weight of the containers which housed the agent (be it an artillery shell, bomb or storage vessel) and hence the amount of actual chemical agent could be much less than 21,030 tons. The sea dumping of all significant amounts of CWA war stocks had occurred by the end of 1946, aside from the dumping of 1,634 tons of CWA off Victoria during August/September 1948. Records indicate there have been two ad-hoc dumping episodes since then, one in 1965 and another in 1970.

Dumping can be confirmed in the seas off three states, Queensland (east of Cape Morton), New South Wales (south east of Sydney) and Victoria (west of King Island). Some of the CWA was loaded onto disused ships which were scuttled under supervision. That is the official stance.

However some of the later chemical storage sites had become so dangerous and hazardous it safer to seal up the underground sites and obliterate any record of them.. Than attempt to remove them and dump them at sea.There is no complete accounting for the fate of much of chemical weapons. As you can see not all chemical weapons was destroyed after WW2. The Koran war cold war Vietnam era prevented the military disposing of all them as they was seen as reserve weapon. However the problem was such weapons over time decayed and became more and more unsafe move. The underground sites themselves became encroached with urbanization.

In 2002 when Senator Alison asked the question about the fate of ww2 weapons stocks in the senate? The then minister of defense said the following.

Chemical weapons were stored in Australia during World War II at a wide range of locations. In his 1998 foreword to 'Keen as Mustard', Dr Peter Dunn, a DSTO scientist and world-recognised expert in this area, stated that "Immediately following World War II, all chemical weapons and bulk stocks of agents in Australia were destroyed. Since that time, no chemical weapons have been produced, stored or transported within this country." Details of the World War II storage areas are in the public domain. ( all?)

Try to get a complete list of storage sites???? like pulling teeth.:laughing7:

Yet in 2009 in at least 219 mustard canisters was found lying in the open in bush???? 7 years after the defense minster and their world renowned chemical weapons expert claimed all chemical weapons in Australia was destroyed.

Thus I am not surprised of the existence such tunnels.

Crow
 

Hello TT

While not impossible but not likely. Most of the crew and two passengers are well documented. While some could of hatched a plot and killed the others on the plane? The only plausible stretch of beach is past Cape Palmas to land but all coastal communities and coast watch station had no reports of any aircraft flying by. I suspect some catastrophic happened to the aircraft that happened so quickly they could not even get a signal out.

No debris was ever found to the aircraft along the coast or rivers. My guess it was over thick jungle somewhere.

Crow
 

In Australia Jones

I have no doubt many aircraft was scrapped stripped any buried after the war. That tradition has still been going on long after the war. I have and old work mate his parents had a family farm next to Albatross fleet Navy air arm near Nowra NSW. The navy resumed his parents property. Afterwards after knocking down the farmhouse an old obsolete Wessex helicopter was placed on the property for fire and rescues crews to due training drills. Later when that need had change and there was no use for it. The remaining air frame was buried in a trench.

So stories of excess scrapped aircraft be discarded into tunnels buried in quarries or old mine shaft are not as absurd as so called official academic historians believe.

Once these fighters and other equipment had been declared obsolete to the military the items became junk and a logistics problems most likely a cost problem fostered from above to dispose of scrap. No doubt in some cases it was just being to bury where convenient. This thing that the military and Government was haphazard approach to disposing of military hardware over the last 70 years.

I imagine the hostility from authorities with hobby historians are exposing how haphazard the military disposed of hardware and even move so toxic chemicals around the country for decades. More so as many properties around such bases are toxic as dangerous chemicals from firefighting foams have entered the local water table. And no crop or animals that have grazed on the property is fit for human consumption. Thus landholders cannot sell their properties and the military and government do not want to pay compensation or buy the landholders property for fair market value.

Imagine the government admitting that they have left unstable chemical weapons in old tunnels and bunker rather than going to the cost of removing them and dumping them in the ocean? ( if you can say that was a better alternative) :tongue3:

Its not hard see why such people searching for such sites get spurned by stony faced governments.

Crow
 

Hi Crow,

I agree with all those gases.

Edit: off topic!
 

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Hello inAustralia Jones.

Not off topic for me mate I because I agree with your earlier comments too, its only human. I miss my old boy too.Its been nearly 40 years and every day there is little things in myself that remind me of him. I some times wonder what my old boy would think of the world today if he saw it? It gets to a point in every-mans life they stop and look around and see a world that changed so much that nothing seems the same anymore. Only memories and they can be just as precious as any treasure.

Crow
 

Hi Crow,

Thanks mate! With the information you have shared on this mystery and because Hardluck is involved i will spent time researching this for you guy's.

Do you know if the flight was day or night? as this can be another factor in vector calculations.
 

Hi Crow,

Looking over the information you have given, let us try to work out a searchable area.

I phoned a friend of mine and asked him if a plane crashed what distance would people hear the crash? He mentioned a Seattle plane that was stolen a few years ago, he went on to say that people up to 90km away heard the crash. he also mentioned that this plane was a crashed on purpose on a small island.


Plane was traveling from Monrovia Liberia to Accra Ghana and disappeared somewhere!
Total distance - Monrovia to Accra = 1,175km

Plane flight path direct line, Zwedru Town distance to direct flight line = 7.8km
Distance - Zwedru to Seiyu = 31km
Seiyu Town distance to direct flight line = 15km

Plane actual flight distance given the evidence form Monrovia to Seiyu = 328km

(note to me): The above information is for calculation purposes only

The specifications for the DC3(C47)

Absolute Ceiling - 23000ft = 7010.4m
Speed - 230mph(200kts) = 370km/h
M.T.O.W - 28,000lbs = 11,430kg (M.T.O.W) Max Take Off Weight. Plane/Fuel/Cargo
Range - 2,125m(1,847Nm) = 3,421km
Rate of climb: 1,050 FPM @ 10°
Operating altitude: 10,000ft = 3,048m
Weather conditions - rain, drizzle, thunder
Time of flight = ?????

Vector calculation will show finesse time, from those calculations we can then calculate distance from engine failure as we already know plane traveled from take off to approx crash site of 328 to 430km. Not all distance traveled by engine propulsion.


On researching the DC3(C47) they had a major cock-pit flaw that every pilot mentioned, the V.S.I gauge was hidden
behind the Yoke. Another weakness was mentioned if the plane was hit by a big gust of wind - lateral Control.
(this is worth mentioning I thought)


Jones
 

hello in Australia Jones, You are assuming, Not that your calculations aren't correct. that these are '"Airline trained pilots", they aren't. some are diciplined pilots oother cowboys, others ??? so they didn't follow rules of flight too closelly, Their flight plans were not followed too closely.They often filed flight planes from here to there then didn't follow them at all.You have to assume that their origiomal flight plans were flown over quite closely,in the origional searches, so ?? Not beingoverly pessimistic, but




I exist to live, not merely to exist
 

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A belated Happy Birthday to mi amigo Simon! Apols for being late to the party. I think you have passed me in age now though as I will be turning 29 (*IQ*) this year! ;)
 

Some very good points made.

Vector calculation will show finesse time, from those calculations we can then calculate distance from engine failure as we already know plane traveled from take off to approx crash site of 328 to 430km. Not all distance traveled by engine propulsion.


Another thing I found out from the records that the copy I have is not clear as in blurry hard to read. The base commander started rescue mission 2 hours after the aircraft had left Monrovia? I assume regardless of which route either coastal or inland the aircraft took it had a strict protocol of of sending a message one quarter the way into the flight. So if we calculate based on cruising flight speed of DC-3 241km per hour. The fight taking consideration of headwinds etc would of taking roughly 5 hours. A quarter of the way when the flight crew needed to give position back to base was between Zwedru and Seiyu. A quarter of way of 1175 km was roughly 293 km.

However as Don Jose mentioned those parameters was rough guide as pilots did not always to a strict protocol. The above is only a guide to work from. Based on a straight line from Monrovia to Accra. However the base commander also searched the coastal route which the flight path a little longer a bit over 1200 km Working on the fact the the aircraft never sent a signal a quarter away through the flight. that the accident occurred before the required time to send a signal. This would of placed the aircraft if it had taken the coastal route approximated never this part of the coast.

panoramio-114335611.webp

panoramio-114335804.webp

However extensive searches along the coast and missionary's contacting villages turned up nothing about the aircraft.

I tend to lean toward the more inland route that something happened between Zwedru and Seiyu amd the plane when down somewhere near that area? The thick jungle swallowed the wreckage

There is a person that might be worth hunting down Eric P. Mitchell,He wrote a article on the missing aircraft in 2013.

Crow



​
 

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A quick question do WW2 widows of veterans get husband benefits? Some claimed veterans befits for Morton the pilot from 1961 to 1992.

Crow
 

Real of Tayopa said:
hello in Australia Jones, You are assuming, Not that your calculations aren't correct. that these are '"Airline trained pilots", they aren't. some are diciplined pilots oother cowboys, others ??? so they didn't follow rules of flight too closelly, Their flight plans were not followed too closely.They often filed flight planes from here to there then didn't follow them at all.You have to assume that their origiomal flight plans were flown over quite closely,in the origional searches, so ?? Not beingoverly pessimistic, but
Click to expand...


Hi Don Jose,

It's been quite awhile sir!

You are correct in everything you say, I'm only calculating a vector by the evidence given and it's seems it's documented evidence, nothing more. I have never researched this mystery what so ever i've only supplied hopefully some input.

The Wright brothers were involved with the "C" planes, government documents mention these planes as having many flaws in which caused many to crash. Could this plane be one of them?

I used the Wrights brothers finesse formula for the vector, I also used a formula supplied by NASA, another from flight training. I am not a Pilot but I know a few.

One calculation i performed was as follows, the plane left the run way at speed (guestimate - 130 - 180km/h), @ 7-10° (not knowing actual weight) speed must be reached as the planes wings are designed to lift the plane on there own, I don't know the actual Field elevation, Headwind or the indicated air speed or Air Density (missing factors) as these will effect altitude, (I'm assuming something!) for the vector calculation. Also i have no access to V-speed data from the plane designer, (once again I assumed).

In any event, the Plane took off - may or my not have reached altitude, shortly after problems occurred, powered travel was only short distance (I'm assuming again) then plane in glide mode until crash!


Jones
 

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After factor there was also a report that fireball was seen off the coast. However that was dismissed as just another reported sighting in hope of getting reward money. The coast was searched for debris even with prevailing winds and currents pushing any floating debris onshore nothing was found. Also it was speculated if this aircraft a DC3 exploded in midair flight it would be very rare. Debris would of been sighted or found to have been washed up. As far as I am aware there are no records of DC3 breaking ever up in flight over mechanical failure.

Crow
 

Hi Crow,

This was back in 1994, The DC built in the 40's. I'm waiting for document link for DC flaws.


Link: https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/24341/aair199401043_001.pdf

Page 11, section 1.12.1 i found interesting.

re-edit: Another thing interesting on the investigation was the MTOW - over weight!

Pity i didn't have this document earlier for Vector calc's.
 

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Hello Jones I remember the accident. We had just stepped off a DC-3 flight from Rabual to Madang. When we heard later that night on the news a DC3 cashed off the end of runway at Sydney airport.

Its always interesting to read such reports. Another morbid interest of mine!:laughing7:

But you can indeed learn from them as possible connections to other crashes.

However that said the engine failure in 1994 was a combination of several factors as you mention the weight of cargo exceeded maxim take off weight. And then combination of inexperience and a mechanical engine failure during the crucial moment of takeoff when requiring the maximum amount of thrust. Is an example of series of failures during take off.

Yet in comparison our DC3 in 1945 by all accounts took off from the airbase in Monrovia with no engine problems. If it had then if had an engine malfunction it would of had plenty of time to turn around to airbase for an emergency landing. What ever happened to this DC-3 happened about an hours into flight by then they would of been flying at cruising speed and fair amount of altitude?

Just a hunch DC-3 went down in Indonesia a few years ago. They suspect why both engines fails water contamination in fuel shut down both engines and the aircraft crashed?

Water can enter an aircraft fuel system through leaks in the fuel vents, deteriorated seals, or poorly fitted fuel caps, refueling aircraft during rain or snowstorms, during aircraft wash, by condensation and precipitation, especially if the aircraft fuel tanks are partially filled with fuel. Now Liberia in tropical convergence zone where the atmosphere is always humid with a lot of rain and moisture. Could the simple fact that the DC3 crashed was from contaminate fuel?

But here is the problem with that hypothesis?

Fuel Strainers – Each engine system is equipped with a C-3 type strainer located on the inboard side of each nacelle to remove foreign matter from the fuel and act as a water trap. Each strainer is equipped with a water drain valve. Yet the problem with the DC3 that was involved in the crash in Indonesia was the water contamination was so great there was nearly more water than fuel in the tanks. The fuel strainers could not purge enough water away to feed the engines with fuel?

If that was the case then could the DC3 fly of an hour or so with out any noticeable problems of fuel contamination? The DC3 has in practice 3 tanks,


Fuel Tanks – The dual fuel system has a total capacity of 621 gallons of avgas consisting of two main tanks (210 gallons each) and one auxiliary tank (201 gallons). The left main tank normally supplies fuel to the left engine and right main tank supplies fuel to the right engine. However, the system provides for operating either engine with fuel supplied from either main tank or the auxiliary tank. No crossfeed capability exists.
​
He main tanks are mounted in the center section between the front and center spars. The auxiliary fuel tank is mounted directly behind the left main tank.​
Refueling is accomplished through gravity flow fillers recessed into the wing upper surface between each nacelle and the fuselage. Each tank is equipped with a water sump and drain valve beneath the center section surface.

dc3 fuel system.webp

The question remains is the fuel drawn from the very bottom of the tank or part the way up to allow water the settle below the fuel intake pipe?

However even if the DC3 had enough fuel for hours of flying before having trouble with water in their fuel the aircraft still had enough time to send out emergency signal. As Jones right point out the aircraft at altitude has some time to glide before crashing.

Because the aircraft never sent out a signal the accident must of had a very catastrophic accident not giving the radio operator no time for a mayday.

Crow
​
 

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Another factor In Liberia, the climate is tropical, hot and humid all year round, with a rainy season from May to October due to the African monsoon, and pretty frequent rains in the other months, except in the short dry season that runs from December to February, which is more marked in the north. Since the accident happened in early December 1945 the wet season last a little longer than normal that year.

Maybe the aircraft suffered from a Downburst?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downburst


In 1945 there was virtually nothing known about this?

Crow
 

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