Maps

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

As you stated, the "pointed hat" is a common theme in DeGrazia's paintings:

View attachment 1131837

Yes, when I asked about its significance, I was told that it was a hat worn by Navaho priests or holy men. I have never seen one photographed but if it is a sacred object, I wouldn't expect to.

There is one kachina that uses something similar which supports the idea.

 

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[Hal Croves]

That person provide lots of documentation and stories, none of which could ever be verified. Said person also told lots of stories about people and places, none of which could ever be verified. It wasn't a case of misunderstanding, it was a case of not being able to verify anything what so ever. Bob Corbin was an Attorney General. If he can't verify something, I don't know who can. Many many people were involved in this. I found out after the fact.

Hope that helps. It's all I would like to say on the subject.

I understand and thank you for the insight.
Just keep in mind that the inability to verify something like a story or document, does not in itself prove those things to be false.

It only suggest a need for deeper scrutiny.
To Joe's point.

Thanks again!

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

As you stated, the "pointed hat" is a common theme in DeGrazia's paintings:

View attachment 1131837

deducer,

Here are a few reasons why I suspected that Tom Kollenborn was involved, along with Chuck Aylor.

From page 126 of "Superstition Mountain: A Ride Through Time":

[Perhaps one of Chuck Aylor's favorite quotes best describes the Aylors and their quest for gold in the Superstition Mountains: "You would play upon me; you would seem to know my stops; you would pluck out the heart of my mystery.....]"

Beyond that, Tom rode the Stone Map trail, as depicted on my map. He once took Greg Davis up that difficult path on the north side of the main mountain. Tom has assured me he had nothing to do with the stones, so I know I am mistaken in my theory. It certainly looked good on paper..... Wrong again.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Mike's stone crosses where found in the area. I don't see it marked on Tom's map?

 

[Old]

Quoted text: “Helen was not well during the time in question, and was under a lot of pressure, by her publisher, to finish the book. She eventually passed away due to her illness. Her husband pulled the books that were for sale, where he could. What is for sale is are those books he had no control over. Bob Corbin is the best authority on what took place with "The Bible...." and he is my face to face source.

A good deal of quality research went into this story. From my perspective, as well as many other Dutch hunters, it's a sad tale.” End quoted text.

I find this far more interesting than the clues themselves. What prompted this? It would be strange indeed if Mr. Corbin didn’t know that was in the book his wife had written on this subject before it was published. Especially a “new found” list of clues to the most sought after mine in the Southwest. What prompted him to try to collect up the unsold copies and therefore limit the distribution of this edition?
Was it public ridicule? Lack of a release from the source? A retraction from the source? Something else? What? I find that fascinating. There is a bigger story here than what has been revealed thus far.
As to lack of verification,,,,,, that’s rampant in all discussion of the LDM. Fact is this set of clues is not substantially different in provenance that the rest. They just have a newer release date. Everything concerning the LDM is left to one’s own discretion as to fact, part fact, or total fiction.

 

[Cubfan64]

Mike's stone crosses where found in the area. I don't see it marked on Tom's map?

Are you referring to Bilbrey's stone crosses? I'll take another look at Tom's map tonight and see if he marks them - I think they were found somewhere around the SE quadrant of Tortilla Mt. but I may be incorrect.

Incidentally, there's a notation on the map that says something like "Adolph Ruth's camp" with a date behind it prior to when he came and a question mark. It's nowhere near where Ruth went to on the trip he died during.

 

[Hal Croves]

Are you referring to Bilbrey's stone crosses? I'll take another look at Tom's map tonight and see if he marks them - I think they were found somewhere around the SE quadrant of Tortilla Mt. but I may be incorrect.

Incidentally, there's a notation on the map that says something like "Adolph Ruth's camp" with a date behind it prior to when he came and a question mark. It's nowhere near where Ruth went to on the trip he died during.

The Ruth story is a novel in itself. Very curious that date.

Mike filed a claim at the same location if I am correct. That needs to be checked. He is one of the few people in this mystery that I would go out of my way to meet.

People like Mike, and Corbin "source", Tumlinson, and even Brent of Tucson, are in fairness victims to some degree. They present what they believe to be a certain truth and in return, they are labeled with adjectives that don't wash off. Thats the cruel side of human nature.

 

[cactusjumper]

Quoted text: “Helen was not well during the time in question, and was under a lot of pressure, by her publisher, to finish the book. She eventually passed away due to her illness. Her husband pulled the books that were for sale, where he could. What is for sale is are those books he had no control over. Bob Corbin is the best authority on what took place with "The Bible...." and he is my face to face source.

A good deal of quality research went into this story. From my perspective, as well as many other Dutch hunters, it's a sad tale.” End quoted text.

I find this far more interesting than the clues themselves. What prompted this? It would be strange indeed if Mr. Corbin didn’t know that was in the book his wife had written on this subject before it was published. Especially a “new found” list of clues to the most sought after mine in the Southwest. What prompted him to try to collect up the unsold copies and therefore limit the distribution of this edition?
Was it public ridicule? Lack of a release from the source? A retraction from the source? Something else? What? I find that fascinating. There is a bigger story here than what has been revealed thus far.
As to lack of verification,,,,,, that’s rampant in all discussion of the LDM. Fact is this set of clues is not substantially different in provenance that the rest. They just have a newer release date. Everything concerning the LDM is left to one’s own discretion as to fact, part fact, or total fiction.

Old,

Bob Corbin was approached by this man, who was interested in getting in touch with Helen. He had old diaries and manuscripts from pioneer families. He wanted to give Helen the material and have her put it in a book. The second time he came around Bob decided to put him in touch with Helen.

His "information" was very convincing, much of it coming from his personal experiences and his family records. It fooled just about everyone. There was really no reason to doubt story.

He claimed his father was a missionary to San Carlos Reservation, and he spent a good deal of his youth on the reservation. He is well versed in Apache lore. That is where I first suspected there was something wrong with his story.
Others were suspicious of him before me.

As a group, we researched his story and claimed past personal history. Hard to live a lie in this age of the internet and public records.

Some are angry and others, like myself are simply saddened.

He believes that the people who dug up the truth, are the real villains here, and has convinced those who still support him of that. It's just one more lie to add to the rest.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

Old,

Bob Corbin was approached by this man, who was interested in getting in touch with Helen. He had old diaries and manuscripts from pioneer families. He wanted to give Helen the material and have her put it in a book. The second time he came around Bob decided to put him in touch with Helen.

His "information" was very convincing, much of it coming from his personal experiences and his family records. It fooled just about everyone. There was really no reason to doubt story.

He claimed his father was a missionary to San Carlos Reservation, and he spent a good deal of his youth on the reservation. He is well versed in Apache lore. That is where I first suspected there was something wrong with his story.
Others were suspicious of him before me.

As a group, we researched his story and claimed past personal history. Hard to live a lie in this age of the internet and public records.

Some are angry and others, like myself and Paul are simply saddened.

He believes that the people who dug up the truth, are the real villains here, and has convinced those who still support him of that. It's just one more lie to add to the rest.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Sorry for jumping in here. You wrote that people "dug up the truth" and "one more lie to add to the rest". But I thought that his information was not verifiable? There is a HUGE difference between a lie and something not verifiable.

I am again writing in dim light here but from an outsider looking in, it kinda feels like Corbin source is getting the bumpy shaft. If he were proven to be a liar, with hard indisputable evidence, why on earth does he have a following, as you say he does. No intelligent being is going to close their eyes to facts.

I am defending someone that I don't even know again.

I am a decent enough researcher. I like peeling onions with golden roots. Let me have a crack at one of the unverifiables.

 

[Cubfan64]

Some are angry and others, like myself and Paul are simply saddened

Joe, whatever feelings I may have are mine to share if I choose not anyone else's especially on a public forum - I've felt for a long time that there are 2 sides to every story and I haven't completely heard all sides of this one and may never do so - that's out of my hands.

In the meantime, ultimately what I think about all of it, who and when I choose to say something is up to me to decide - I would appreciate you editing your post to remove the portion that references me.

 

[cactusjumper]

Sorry for jumping in here. You wrote that people "dug up the truth" and "one more lie to add to the rest". But I thought that his information was not verifiable? There is a HUGE difference between a lie and something not verifiable.

I am again writing in dim light here but from an outsider looking in, it kinda feels like Corbin source is getting the bumpy shaft. If he were proven to be a liar, with hard indisputable evidence, why on earth does he have a following, as you say he does. No intelligent being is going to close their eyes to facts.

I am defending someone that I don't even know again.

I am a decent enough researcher. I like peeling onions with golden roots. Let me have a crack at one of the unverifiables.

Hal,

I have gone over this many times. Lies are "unverifiable" but the truth is almost always verifiable. When you cover up your lies, with others, your friends tend to believe the new lie.

No need to convince you, or any other newbie to the story. It's enough to warn you to be cautious when he returns to posting. I don't like reliving this thing again and again. Many of the "facts" in Helen's "Bible....." are pure fiction. Buyer beware.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

While I am in the same boat as Paul, Paul does need to remember this thread:

OLBERS MANIFEST

This document provided to Helen Corbin was absolutely proven by Paul, Garry, and I to have been 100% fraudulent. Not a "possible fraud", but one which there was zero deniability. FAKE

MIke

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I have gone over this many times. Lies are "unverifiable" but the truth is almost always verifiable. When you cover up your lies, with others, your friends tend to believe the new lie.

No need to convince you, or any other newbie to the story. It's enough to warn you to be cautious when he returns to posting. I don't like reliving this thing again and again. Many of the "facts" in Helen's "Bible....." are pure fiction. Buyer beware.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,
You have been more than fair with your responses to my persistent questions. I am only using Corbin source as an example of the trap of calling someone a liar. I don't believe that lies are unverifiable. Almost always they collapse under scrutiny and the truth is eventually pressed out. It is the responsibility of the accuser to prove their charge. And if they can't, it's nothing short of slander.

And truth is sometimes relevant only to the person understanding it.

I took your advice a long time ago and check everything that I read.
And yes, I was born under a turnip truck.

 

[Hal Croves]

Joe,

While I am in the same boat as Paul, Paul does need to remember this thread:

OLBERS MANIFEST

This document provided to Helen Corbin was absolutely proven by Garry and I to have been 100% fraudulent. Not a "possible fraud", but one which there was zero deniability. FAKE

MIke

I am going to read that very carefully because you leave no room for error. It would start with a look at the original document if available.

 

[Thirsty44]

Olbers Manifest controversy

Wrong thread, sorry!

 

[gollum]

Hal,

The forger of the Olbers Manifest did a fairly good job. Two things screwed that person though:

1. Redoing an entire passenger list is long and tedious work. Even someone good with Photoshop will many times make errors of laziness. This happened with the manifest.

2. This manifest was made (mid to late 1990s) before the Internet REALLY came into its own. Now it is so easy to check on things. When I emailed the scan of the Manifest from Helen Corbin's Book to the ISTG, they responded back that "Sir, The documents you sent are not ISTG documents". This means that someone went to the trouble of trying to make the Olbers Manifest they gave to Helen Corbin look like something official.

Mike

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

The forger of the Olbers Manifest did a fairly good job. Two things screwed that person though:

1. Redoing an entire passenger list is long and tedious work. Even someone good with Photoshop will many times make errors of laziness. This happened with the manifest.

2. This manifest was made (mid to late 1990s) before the Internet REALLY came into its own. Now it is so easy to check on things. When I emailed the scan of the Manifest from Helen Corbin's Book to the ISTG, they responded back that "Sir, The documents you sent are not ISTG documents". This means that someone went to the trouble of trying to make the Olbers Manifest they gave to Helen Corbin look like something official.

Mike

Did you ask the source to explain the ISTG response? The discrepancy? The explanation would help us understand your disappointment with him/her. A quote would do it.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

At this point it should be obvious to you......that you are very....very late to this party/discussion. This is just the tip of the iceberg. If you want to find something to research, this one has been gone over with a fine-tooth comb.

You need to know the personal history that this man has related to many of us. He deleted all of his posts on this forum,
and many on other forums. Thankfully, many were saved by Greg Davis, and are recorded by any number of interested Dutch hunters. Without those posts, you will be at a distinct disadvantage.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Thank you for the link back to this topic. It's been a long time since I visited the "manifest" story.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Old]

Obviously, there are old wounds involved here. Sorry to be poking at them. I can tell there is heartache involved here. No disrespect meant, just trying to figure out if there is even an ounce of credibility or not. I genuinely appreciate what you feel you can share and respect your wishes if you are unable to share.

I'm assuming the source has a similar name to one deeply involved in the last hours of Jake's life. If so, is there a distant relation to that person? Assuming its the same family, is there any possibility the "great aunt" could have had access and/or actually had possession or first hand knowledge of the alleged German clues?

I understand the hostility between the two camps and also question the likelihood of that kind of information being passed between the two factions. Don't think that happened. If there is anything to this list I don't think it came down as stated.