Maps

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

Helen was not well during the time in question, and was under a lot of pressure, by her publisher, to finish the book. She eventually passed away due to her illness. Her husband pulled the books that were for sale, where he could. What is for sale is are those books he had no control over. Bob Corbin is the best authority on what took place with "The Bible...." and he is my face to face source.

A good deal of quality research went into this story. From my perspective, as well as many other Dutch hunters, it's a sad tale.

The book is rare to find these days. Leather-bound is very rare or even impossible to find.
I have one enscribed to my wife and myself by Bob.

You wrote: "To your credit at least you acknowledge the possibility of the information being correct."

Only some of the information is correct.

Good luck,

Joe

Says quite a bit about Mr. Corbin's character. What an awful thing to have to suffer through.

I don't know the story. Obviously, something must have happened to change Mr. Corbin's mind. Is that all hush, hush or something talked about? I only ask because most sources and, to that point most clues concerning the DLM, simply can not be proven one way or another. At least not until something is found and publicly announced.

So, I find it strange that something so "controversial" could be revealed about a once trusted source. It's already difficult for most people to communicate and when you mix in secrecy and paranoia well, misunderstanding and confusion are to be expected.

 

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[Hal Croves]

View attachment 1131632

That line is Queen Creek

Here are both lines.
One is Queen Creek from 60 to it's more or less end or beginning. 11.5 miles give or take a few.
I am not seeing it? The whole thing? A section?

 

[Cubfan64]

I have not done much research of any kind on the Stone Maps for a variety of reasons, but I wanted to see if this might spark some conversation. The is an image from the inside back cover of Tom Kollenborn's book "Superstition Mountain In the Footsteps of the Dutchman". I don't know if Tom has ever publicly come out and named the person he thinks is/was the "artist" of the stone maps, but I believe others have heard him say that.

I always found this interesting when I first saw it. There are other things noted on Tom's map, and some have questions marks after them - this one doesn't and I found that interesting as well.

I've never been up on Bluff Spring's Mt, but it's on my ever growing list of places to explore and I'd sure like to sit at this spot and see what Tom saw that convinced him of the location. If anyone beats me to it, maybe they would be kind enough to take some panoramic photos in different directions from there and post them on the forum for discussion.

 

[sgtfda]

Hal. I know a lot was cut from the show but in episode one we followed the stone maps. At the end of the trail is a old mex mine. They just did not show it. I know exactly the area represented on the maps. Who made them and why. If you believe otherwise. That's Ok. Have fun.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

I mentioned that notation on Tom's map some time ago. It would be interesting if someone were to go to the spot, as you have suggested, and take those photos. Any volunteers?

Take care,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

That reference on Toms map was referring to Kenworthy pointing to where he thought the location was.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal. I know a lot was cut from the show but in episode one we followed the stone maps. At the end of the trail is a old mex mine. They just did not show it. I know exactly the area represented on the maps. Who made them and why. If you believe otherwise. That's Ok. Have fun.

I don't doubt that you believe that that line represents Queen Creek and that at the end is an old Mexican Mine. Most creeks were followed to their source if they showed any signs of color. Not surprising that there would be an old mine there. I am not sure how you would know its Mexican. Perhaps built in the Mexican Style is what you mean.

But you said "that line is Queen Creek". By that I assumed that you meant a line that traces the path of Queen Creek. I am at the disadvantage of not having seen your show on the stones so I can not comment on your interpretation. Sounds like you are reading them as an overlay if that's Queen Creek. If you are, as you implied, I simply don't see any similarity between the two lines. Which is why I asked you to explain it. But?

I am happy that you have figured out the map makers name and the area represented and why they were made and especially that they are some type of an overlay. Is this all revealed in your show? That would be worth watching.

 

[Cubfan64]

That reference on Toms map was referring to Kenworthy pointing to where he thought the location was.

If that's the case, that does make sense because Kenworthy's area of interest is within sight of there - just wish Tom would have stated it had something to do with Kenworthy pointing it out rather than making it sound as though it was something he knew or suspected. I'd still like to get up there and see what it looks like

 

[djui5]

So, I find it strange that something so "controversial" could be revealed about a once trusted source. It's already difficult for most people to communicate and when you mix in secrecy and paranoia well, misunderstanding and confusion are to be expected.

I'll say it. The "source" turned out to be a liar and a fake. Nothing in his past, or what he brought to the table in the LDM community could be verified. He lied repeatedly when questioned about it. I was very pissed at the time. Still kinda am.

The German clues are part of this information. They could not be verified. Sorry to tell you.

 

[djui5]

Yes. Not everything he said/posted was a lie. It's hard to separate them. Never rely on anything from him only.

 

[cactusjumper]

Would the "source's" initials be M. K. R. ?

I've seen this person here as well as other sites. I thought he was somewhat well respected at some point.

If it is the "source", I want to make it a point to disregard his posts.

pkdmslf,

He was very well respected, and still is by some very respectable Dutch hunters. He has a wealth of legitimate historical knowledge as well as being more than knowledgeable on the Apache lifestyle.

I believe the moderators banned him when he was last on this site. When he came on the site, he brought his own fan club, with multiple identities. He may have come back in the last few days.

My best advice is......trust no one, not even me. Do your own research and weeding out of the bad guys. Those who say they don't read, IMHO, are the ones who will be burned.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

I have not done much research of any kind on the Stone Maps for a variety of reasons, but I wanted to see if this might spark some conversation. The is an image from the inside back cover of Tom Kollenborn's book "Superstition Mountain In the Footsteps of the Dutchman". I don't know if Tom has ever publicly come out and named the person he thinks is/was the "artist" of the stone maps, but I believe others have heard him say that.

I believe that Kollenborn at one time or another, mentioned DeGrazia.

 

[Hal Croves]

I'll say it. The "source" turned out to be a liar and a fake. Nothing in his past, or what he brought to the table in the LDM community could be verified. He lied repeatedly when questioned about it. I was very pissed at the time. Still kinda am.

The German clues are part of this information. They could not be verified. Sorry to tell you.

I don't mean to sound like I am challenging you. Perhaps I am but I don't mean it in any way disrespectful. I am just trying to understand. You described the source as a liar and a fake and I am sure that you have your reasons. But do you know, with certainty, that what you were told was a lie? If what you were told was passed from one person to the next, as most Dutchman clues are, how on earth can you say that they are lies? Was it that obvious?

I don't know the source but even cactusjumper who is quite vocal on the topic leaves open the possibility that the source might redeem himself/herself eventually. Could it be that what was told was misunderstood or that it was not fully explained to preserve some level of privacy while at the same time still trying to help? Your second post says that we have to sift the good info from the bad, which at least sounds hopeful.

I don't know too many people who would intentionally deceive a woman who was ill and suffering. If the source does have a true understanding and appreciation of native cultures and values, and acceptance by some in the Apache Nation, I would be EXTREMELY cautious in labeling them a fake and liar. It would be atypical... in my experience.

Not many people can walk in both worlds (native & non) without being misunderstood and sometimes punished by both sides.

Anyway, I hope that you are wrong. Thank you for having the balls to write about it.

 

[cactusjumper]

I believe that Kollenborn at one time or another, mentioned DeGrazia.

deducer,

Tom mentioned DeGrazia many times. They were friends.

I have mentioned a number of times in the past that I thought Ted DeGrazia had something to do with the Stone Maps.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

I don't mean to sound like I am challenging you. Perhaps I am but I don't mean it in any way disrespectful. I am just trying to understand. You described the source as a liar and a fake and I am sure that you have your reasons. But do you know, with certainty, that what you were told was a lie? If what you were told was passed from one person to the next, as most Dutchman clues are, how on earth can you say that they are lies? Was it that obvious?

I don't know the source but even cactusjumper who is quite vocal on the topic leaves open the possibility that the source might redeem himself/herself eventually. Could it be that what was told was misunderstood or that it was not fully explained to preserve some level of privacy while at the same time still trying to help? Your second post says that we have to sift the good info from the bad, which at least sounds hopeful.

I don't know too many people who would intentionally deceive a woman who was ill and suffering. If the source does have a true understanding and appreciation of native cultures and values, and acceptance by some in the Apache Nation, I would be EXTREMELY cautious in labeling them a fake and liar. It would be atypical... in my experience.

Not many people can walk in both worlds (native & non) without being misunderstood and sometimes punished by both sides.

Anyway, I hope that you are wrong. Thank you for having the balls to write about it.

Hal,

I may have been mistaken about him being banned here. A warning may have been enough to make him quit posting.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

deducer,

Tom mentioned DeGrazia many times. They were friends.

I have mentioned a number of times in the past that I thought Ted DeGrazia had something to do with the Stone Maps.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

I think he would have been flattered to know that he was a suspect and there is some reason to consider Ted. Stylistically, I just don't see the connection. Teds work, love it or hate it, (his style) is well defined. Only his grave marker and the tall hats, worn by some in his post card illustrations, connect him to the maps.
Personally, I think it's coincidence.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I may have been mistaken about him being banned here. A warning may have been enough to make him quit posting.

Take care,

Joe

I am not a fan of banning people from this site unless they outright threaten someone with harm. Other than that, let the words fly.

 

[cactusjumper]

I think he would have been flattered to know that he was a suspect and there is some reason to consider Ted. Stylistically, I just don't see the connection. Teds work, love it or hate it, (his style) is well defined. Only his grave marker and the tall hats, worn by some in his post card illustrations, connect him to the maps.
Personally, I think it's coincidence.

Hal,

I also told Tom K. that I thought he was involved in creating the Stone Maps. He told me he was flattered, as he thought they were quite a piece of artwork. He denied he had anything to do with them.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

Hal,

As you stated, the "pointed hat" is a common theme in DeGrazia's paintings:

 

[djui5]

I don't mean to sound like I am challenging you. Perhaps I am but I don't mean it in any way disrespectful. I am just trying to understand.

That person provide lots of documentation and stories, none of which could ever be verified. Said person also told lots of stories about people and places, none of which could ever be verified. It wasn't a case of misunderstanding, it was a case of not being able to verify anything what so ever. Bob Corbin was an Attorney General. If he can't verify something, I don't know who can. Many many people were involved in this. I found out after the fact.

Hope that helps. It's all I would like to say on the subject.