LUE MAP THEORY, MAYBE SOME CONTEXT

[Puff the Tragic Wagon]

In the history of the ranch you gave in a previous post it appears they are two different individuals, one who arrived 1884, Eugene Johnson, and one in 1886, stuttering Charlie Johnson.

It appears to state Eugene had the Big Lue Ranch with the original LUE brand; and Stuttering Charlie settled on the Blue River in Johnson Canyon, who originally had the 333 brand.

“ Eugene Johnson owned the ranch holding which he sold to Abe and Dick Boyles (c. 1906). Johnson was in the area at least by 1884. His brand was ‘LUE’ and the name of the ranch, The Big Lue Ranch, derived from this. The Boyles in turn sold the ranch in 1911 to Bud Stacey. ‘Stuttering Charlie’ Johnson settled in Johnson Canyon on the lower Blue River in 1886. He had been a Texas Ranger, and then a cattleman at Silver City, New Mexico. His first brand on the Blue was ‘333,’ but later he used the ‘LUE’ brand “.

Am I misunderstanding and they are actually the same person?🤔

 

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[mdog]

In the history of the ranch you gave in a previous post it appears they are two different individuals, one who arrived 1884, Eugene Johnson, and one in 1886, stuttering Charlie Johnson.

It appears to state Eugene had the Big Lue Ranch with the original LUE brand; and Stuttering Charlie settled on the Blue River in Johnson Canyon, who originally had the 333 brand.

“ Eugene Johnson owned the ranch holding which he sold to Abe and Dick Boyles (c. 1906). Johnson was in the area at least by 1884. His brand was ‘LUE’ and the name of the ranch, The Big Lue Ranch, derived from this. The Boyles in turn sold the ranch in 1911 to Bud Stacey. ‘Stuttering Charlie’ Johnson settled in Johnson Canyon on the lower Blue River in 1886. He had been a Texas Ranger, and then a cattleman at Silver City, New Mexico. His first brand on the Blue was ‘333,’ but later he used the ‘LUE’ brand “.

Am I misunderstanding and they are actually the same person?🤔

I think they are the same person. Stuttering Charlie is probably a nickname but it would be nice to have more information. I had the same question. The LUE brand was associated with both names, so I assumed they were the same guy.

 

[Puff the Tragic Wagon]

I think they are the same person. Stuttering Charlie is probably a nickname but it would be nice to have more information. I had the same question. The LUE brand was associated with both names, so I assumed they were the same guy.

On the off chance they are two different men, I did a search of the Texas Rangers roster and the only Johnson during the same time period was Charles August Johnson. Researching that name turned up info that he was a Swede who came as an indenture, did ranch work for an uncle and paid off the indenture debt in 1884. I’m leaning on this being the same Stuttering Charlie mentioned in your Lue history as the owner of the 333 brand without more information. It very well could be the same man, but the name Eugene seems unlikely to be nicknamed Stuttering Charlie to me. Idk

It could be that Eugene sold out in 1906 to the Boyles and retired the brand, then Stuttering Charlie decided to claim it and switch from his 333 brand. Without more information it’s hard to be certain.

Regardless, it’s an interesting link you found between the LUE and the 333 brands. Will be interesting to see where it goes. You’re doing a great job so far. 👍

 

[mdog]

On the off chance they are two different men, I did a search of the Texas Rangers roster and the only Johnson during the same time period was Charles August Johnson. Researching that name turned up info that he was a Swede who came as an indenture, did ranch work for an uncle and paid off the indenture debt in 1884. I’m leaning on this being the same Stuttering Charlie mentioned in your Lue history as the owner of the 333 brand without more information. It very well could be the same man, but the name Eugene seems unlikely to be nicknamed Stuttering Charlie to me. Idk

It could be that Eugene sold out in 1906 to the Boyles and retired the brand, then Stuttering Charlie decided to claim it and switch from his 333 brand. Without more information it’s hard to be certain.

Regardless, it’s an interesting link you found between the LUE and the 333 brands. Will be interesting to see where it goes. You’re doing a great job so far. 👍

Thank you.

I'm going to have to invest in some research tools. I can't find much information about people.

 

[Puff the Tragic Wagon]

Thank you.

I'm going to have to invest in some research tools. I can't find much information about people.

One thing to keep in mind is that we’re relying on a second/third hand word of mouth account with this history. There’s going to be some discrepancies naturally when relying on memories. We’re all fallible in that area, lol.

With that in mind, I did some more research hoping to add to your background info on the LUE ranch and brand.

I’ve found that 1908 was the last year the LUE brand was listed as owned by Eugene Johnson. It then disappears until 1920, with new owners AG Stevenson & HK Gatlin of Clifton.

The 333 brand doesn’t appear in Arizona records until 1916, where it lists Maria C Brana of Tucson Arizona as owner. It then disappears until 1923 with owner listed as Sam Cline Young.

By 1926 both brands disappear from the records completely.

How this confirms any of the previous history given, or not, is hard to say. The discrepancies are pretty obvious here.

Will just have to keep digging. Hopefully something will pop up that’s useful. Meanwhile, I’m still interested in the 333 connection and how that could play into the Lue Clue mapping. I would like to hear Cuzimlooney’s thoughts on the Masonic implications if they are willing to share.

 

[mdog]

One thing to keep in mind is that we’re relying on a second/third hand word of mouth account with this history. There’s going to be some discrepancies naturally when relying on memories. We’re all fallible in that area, lol.

With that in mind, I did some more research hoping to add to your background info on the LUE ranch and brand.

I’ve found that 1908 was the last year the LUE brand was listed as owned by Eugene Johnson. It then disappears until 1920, with new owners AG Stevenson & HK Gatlin of Clifton.

The 333 brand doesn’t appear in Arizona records until 1916, where it lists Maria C Brana of Tucson Arizona as owner. It then disappears until 1923 with owner listed as Sam Cline Young.

By 1926 both brands disappear from the records completely.

How this confirms any of the previous history given, or not, is hard to say. The discrepancies are pretty obvious here.

Will just have to keep digging. Hopefully something will pop up that’s useful. Meanwhile, I’m still interested in the 333 connection and how that could play into the Lue Clue mapping. I would like to hear Cuzimlooney’s thoughts on the Masonic implications if they are willing to share.

That's some real good research. Thank you very much.

Are there any records of the LUE or 333 brand being used in the 19th century? I wonder if the brands had to be recorded during the 19th century. When the brands switched owners, I wonder if they lost their connection to the Big LUE Ranch.

 

[Puff the Tragic Wagon]

That's some real good research. Thank you very much.

Are there any records of the LUE or 333 brand being used in the 19th century? I wonder if the brands had to be recorded during the 19th century. When the brands switched owners, I wonder if they lost their connection to the Big LUE Ranch.

Arizona began registering cattle brands in 1895 and continuing to the present. Any brands before 1895 will be tricky, if not impossible, to research aside from local historical societies or genealogy stories.

Not all historical Arizona Brands records are available online and the ones that are have to be searched manually by recorded year. It would be time consuming at the very least. I left off searching when both brands disappeared after 1926.

 

[mdog]

Arizona began registering cattle brands in 1895 and continuing to the present. Any brands before 1895 will be tricky, if not impossible, to research aside from local historical societies or genealogy stories.

Not all historical Arizona Brands records are available online and the ones that are have to be searched manually by recorded year. It would be time consuming at the very least. I left off searching when both brands disappeared after 1926.

Thank you.

 

[Ryano]

Blue River, Lower Blue River

BLUE = (B)ig LUE ?

Can’t rule out the possibility the brand name connection is a red herring and instead might be derived from the nearby river name. This ranch is a long ways off the 105 longitudinal.

Of course .. with this mystery all avenues must be explored. Great work guys!

 

[Puff the Tragic Wagon]

Blue River, Lower Blue River

BLUE = (B)ig LUE ?

Can’t rule out the possibility the brand name connection is a red herring and instead might be derived from the nearby river name. This ranch is a long ways off the 105 longitudinal.

Of course .. with this mystery all avenues must be explored. Great work guys!

All avenues seem coincidental at this point, if you believe in coincidence. Haha

Further research into the last recorded owners of the LUE and 333 brands reveals the reasons why the two brands disappear after 1926.

Sam Cline (Young) died in 1926, explaining why the 333 brand disappeared that year.

Sam Little Cline (1874-1928) - Find a Grave...

Sam Cline, aged 52, died yesterday afternoon at a local hospital after a short illness. Mr. Cline had been a resident of Gila county for many years and had made his home in the Pleasant Valley district. He was well known as a rancher. Funeral announcements will be made later. The Jones Funeral...

www.findagrave.com

And the following court document explains what happened to the LUE brand, last owned by AG Stevenson and HK Gatlin as of 1929.

https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/3254291/hagan-v-cowan/?q=&court_pasuperct=on&order_by=dateFiled+desc

I found virtually nothing on HK Gatlin afterwards except for his family presence in Gila County. Could he have been the original owner of the “Lue Map” from “Gila”, or maybe Mr. Stevenson?

Interestingly, AG Stevenson is listed as the owner of the Last Chance Turquoise mine in Cochise Co., AZ in 1949.
( 31° 46' 28'' North , 109° 48' 51'' West )

Last Chance Mine, Casey Hill, Courtland, Turquoise Mining District (Courtland-Gleeson Mining District), Cochise County, Arizona, USA

A former small Pb-Zn-Cu-Ag-Au-Gemstone occurrence/mine located in the corner of secs. 16, 17, 20 & ...

www.mindat.org

So that pretty much sums up what happened in regards to the brands. I would hazard a guess the Great Depression of 1929 was also a culprit.

Perhaps one or all of these gentlemen were Masons? Unfortunately, I have no way to determine that. Maybe one of our Mason members here might be able to access that info, but for me this is the end of the road as far as the cattle brands are concerned unless new info turns up.

 

[mdog]

Blue River, Lower Blue River

BLUE = (B)ig LUE ?

Can’t rule out the possibility the brand name connection is a red herring and instead might be derived from the nearby river name. This ranch is a long ways off the 105 longitudinal.

Of course .. with this mystery all avenues must be explored. Great work guys!

When I saw the name Stuttering Charlie Johnson, I thought of Blue River too. B is a consonant that can be difficult for people who stutter. He could have shortened BLUE to LUE, just because it would be easier for him to say.

However, the Big LUE Ranch is one point on a nationwide mapping system that is very precise. The clue LLORO URRACA ENTERRARI, if it is a clue, fits well with the Pioneer Urraca Cemetery by Mt. Blanca in Colorado. I would like to find a link between the cemetery and the Big LUE Ranch.

 

[Puff the Tragic Wagon]

Now I better understand why I’m not a good treasure hunter, lol. As a former LEO, I always followed the evidence before making judgement. It’s important to keep an open mind and not concentrate on just the evidence that might pertain to a particular suspect. It’s limiting and could lead to arresting the wrong person while the guilty gets off Scott free.

Treasure hunters, on the other hand, seem to work much differently. Instead of following where the evidence leads, they primarily look for evidence that supports their ideas. And there’s nothing wrong with that if proving your idea is all that matters.

For instance with the LUE, you have an obvious interest in connecting these “points”. You concentrate on only evidence supporting that interest as it will validate your mapping theory.

I, on the other hand, follow all the evidence, wherever it leads. I may not be able to validate your theory, or I actually might. Then again, I may find the LUE was something else entirely. Hell , I might even solve it. Or I may end up proving it’s the biggest con ever pulled. Either way I’m definitely not a treasure hunter, I’m a puzzle solver.

So again, I’m going to sideline myself for a while and just follow along. It will be interesting to see how you tie this all together. You’re doing great so far. 👍

 

[mdog]

Now I better understand why I’m not a good treasure hunter, lol. As a former LEO, I always followed the evidence before making judgement. It’s important to keep an open mind and not concentrate on just the evidence that might pertain to a particular suspect. It’s limiting and could lead to arresting the wrong person while the guilty gets off Scott free.

Treasure hunters, on the other hand, seem to work much differently. Instead of following where the evidence leads, they primarily look for evidence that supports their ideas. And there’s nothing wrong with that if proving your idea is all that matters.

For instance with the LUE, you have an obvious interest in connecting these “points”. You concentrate on only evidence supporting that interest as it will validate your mapping theory.

I, on the other hand, follow all the evidence, wherever it leads. I may not be able to validate your theory, or I actually might. Then again, I may find the LUE was something else entirely. Hell , I might even solve it. Or I may end up proving it’s the biggest con ever pulled. Either way I’m definitely not a treasure hunter, I’m a puzzle solver.

So again, I’m going to sideline myself for a while and just follow along. It will be interesting to see how you tie this all together. You’re doing great so far. 👍

I appreciate your interest and participation in this thread.

I don't consider myself a treasure hunter. My interest is in the ancient trails and the people who used them and why they used them. I do have an interest in treasure legends because the search for treasure drives exploration.

I'm sure you have noticed that this thread is disorganized and my posts jump all over the place, from one subject to another. I collect evidence and post it, as I find it, with the hope that puzzle solvers, like you, can organize that information and share it. I share everything that I find. Treasure hunters might share some information, but they have put in countless hours of researching and searching, so they aren't going to give up anything that might disrupt a recovery. I've been researching an east/west trail for 15 years and I have gradually collected and posted information that might be useful to treasure hunters. All I ask is that they share evidence that will confirm the route of that trail.

As far as the LUE goes, I present what I find and if somebody can use that information, that's great. I'm interested in who created it and when. I think the treasure legends associated with the mapping are made up to draw attention to a specific area.

This might be the H K Gatlin that you posted about. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/36245900/harvey-kidd-gatlin

He lived at Blue, about 40 miles north of the Big LUE Ranch.

Glimpses Into Our Past: The Gatlins - Patagonia Regional Times

The Gatlin Jones Cemetery in Patagonia was established in 1907 with the burial of Bessie Inez Jones Gatlin who died at the age of 19 from kidney problems. [The Oasis 7/13/1907]. This private cemetery is located at 508 S. Third Avenue, Township 22S, Range 16E, Section 7. Bessie was the daughter...

patagoniaregionaltimes.org

 

[sdcfia]

Now I better understand why I’m not a good treasure hunter, lol. As a former LEO, I always followed the evidence before making judgement. It’s important to keep an open mind and not concentrate on just the evidence that might pertain to a particular suspect. It’s limiting and could lead to arresting the wrong person while the guilty gets off Scott free.

Treasure hunters, on the other hand, seem to work much differently. Instead of following where the evidence leads, they primarily look for evidence that supports their ideas. And there’s nothing wrong with that if proving your idea is all that matters.

For instance with the LUE, you have an obvious interest in connecting these “points”. You concentrate on only evidence supporting that interest as it will validate your mapping theory.

I, on the other hand, follow all the evidence, wherever it leads. I may not be able to validate your theory, or I actually might. Then again, I may find the LUE was something else entirely. Hell , I might even solve it. Or I may end up proving it’s the biggest con ever pulled. Either way I’m definitely not a treasure hunter, I’m a puzzle solver.

So again, I’m going to sideline myself for a while and just follow along. It will be interesting to see how you tie this all together. You’re doing great so far. 👍

That's an interesting comparison and makes sense for the most part - but only up to a point. That point is the "evidence".

Except for the accomplishments of the truly brilliant criminals (the ones not in jail), the evidence of most crimes committed is generally obvious and importantly, factual. Dead body, forensic evidence (fingerprints, dna, videos, et al), witness/victim testimonies (one degree of separation from the event), paper trails, and so forth. The LEO, trained in critical thinking, methodically (like you, a puzzle solver) stacks this stuff up and the perpetrator is generally identified and ends up being convicted. Not always, but typically.

Most "treasure hunters" follow "evidence" that is primarily public domain hearsay and corrupted by multiple interpretations of the original hearsay. Nothing current, nothing original, nothing factually verifiable. Lots of debate, which can be a challenging and interesting diversion, but a debate that rarely leads to a solution. And if by chance the mystery is solved, the puzzle solver is certainly smart enough to keep his mouth completely shut - like those brilliant criminals.

IMO, the only treasures of hidden/lost valuables worth pursuing are those that nobody has heard about, but has left factual evidence that can be verified. Not newspaper articles, internet stories, repeated rumors, etc, but family secrets, old personal journals/maps, anomalous field evidence, etc. - stuff that nobody else has been aware of. Luck? Yeah, for the most part. mdog's mapping techniques create numerous geometrical coincidences relating to numerous known treasure allegations. What it all means is unclear, but one thing guaranteed to red flag a cop is "coincidences".

 

[Puff the Tragic Wagon]

Yeah, for the most part. mdog's mapping techniques create numerous geometrical coincidences relating to numerous known treasure allegations. What it all means is unclear, but one thing guaranteed to red flag a cop is "coincidences".

And a cop will recognize some coincidences are merely a game of 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon. Sometimes it is simply coincidence.

Good luck gentlemen. 👍

 

[Puff the Tragic Wagon]

One last question before I bench myself if I may. To Mdog, can you refresh my memory on how you arrived at your degree headings in your mapping system? I must have overlooked that part, or maybe you explained it in a different thread that I haven’t seen, or maybe I’m just getting senile. Thanks in advance.

 

[mdog]

One last question before I bench myself if I may. To Mdog, can you refresh my memory on how you arrived at your degree headings in your mapping system? I must have overlooked that part, or maybe you explained it in a different thread that I haven’t seen, or maybe I’m just getting senile. Thanks in advance.

Yes, I had been spending a lot of time looking at the LUE map and trying to figure out a way that the drawing could be showing any type of location or direction. When von Mueller showed the LUE map, he always oriented it with the Sun in the upper left quadrant. One day, the thought popped into my head, the Sun looks like a protractor. So I got a protractor and took the readings off the LUE map.

 

[Puff the Tragic Wagon]

Yes, I had been spending a lot of time looking at the LUE map and trying to figure out a way that the drawing could be showing any type of location or direction. When von Mueller showed the LUE map, he always oriented it with the Sun in the upper left quadrant. One day, the thought popped into my head, the Sun looks like a protractor. So I got a protractor and took the readings off the LUE map.

Thank you. 👍