LUE MAP THEORY, MAYBE SOME CONTEXT

[mdog]

That says Historia Tolteca and from a brief review, explains the history of Toltecs, not Aztecs, although it was written by Aztecs. The Toltecs were almost extinct, if not completely extinct, when the Aztecs got to Tenochtitlan. They are 2 different peoples. So....Im confused

I dont see gold in the picture unfortunately. The Aztecs prized feathers, which I do see in the picture.
So, IF the Aztecs came from the American southwest, then I have a couple questions. We have zero recognized Aztec sculptures here in the US (well, maybe this head is....but it looks nothing like real authenticated Aztec sculptures in Mx), so...... between AZ and Tenochtitlan somebody had to have taught them how to make sculptures, pyramids and the major construction projects they engaged in. Who? We, as far as I know, dont have any Aztec pyramid false-starts like we do in Egypt. Egypt is replete with half built pyramids they had to stop construction on because their geometry was off. Again, as far as I know, the Aztecs went from zero to perfect in short order.
Who showed them?
Someone would've had to have introduced them to ripping hearts out for rain between here and there too. Who? Honest question!

We can follow European, or Chinese or, etc.. construction tech and see how they progressed from huts to castles. Aztecs went from zero, to pyramids bigger than Egypts in a very short time. Who taught them?
Does learning about pyramid construction just occur to a race when travelling large distances? Why didnt they build pyramids here? Why dont other natives ingegenous to North America rip out hearts for rain?

This isnt sarcasm....its just how my brain fleshes things out. Sorry if this sounds offensive or rude. I dont mean it to be. Just trying to reason my way through this......I WANT it to make sense.

Here's a link that might interest you.

From the Mississippi to Mexico -- The Great Migration of the Aztecs!

 

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[mdog]

In this excerpt from "The Treasure of the Valley of Secrets" Karl von Mueller writes,

"At about this very same time, Hardrock Hammond had come into possession of the LUE map and several of us were busy copying it (it had to be returned to the owner after we had copied it.) and, although we had no idea whatever then that the LUE map was a treasure map, and we were occupied in attempting to discern what the original purposes and intent were as far as the LUE mapping were concerned."

It seems that von Mueller and his friends took the time to copy the LUE and they didn't know what it was. Von Mueller also mentions "the LUE mapping", if you look at the LUE, there is nothing on it that looks like a map. I wonder if there was documentation included with the LUE that actually showed features of a map.

 

[point hunter]

Another excerpt from The Treasure of the Valley of Secrets, " ...if there was certainly a Cave of Gold such as was described (in the Scarlet Shadow), two locations and only two locations were logical. One of them had to be in the Monument Valley area of southern Utah or in the Culebra Range of the Sangre de Cristos of southern Colorado, and it was almost certain to be in the Culebras with little or no doubt that it would be on the eastern slope."

The Cave of Gold as described in the Scarlet Shadow was in the Culebra Range of southern Colorado, where, in the description of the Cave of Gold, was there any mention of the Monument Valley, two hundred miles away in

In this excerpt from "The Treasure of the Valley of Secrets" Karl von Mueller writes,

"At about this very same time, Hardrock Hammond had come into possession of the LUE map and several of us were busy copying it (it had to be returned to the owner after we had copied it.) and, although we had no idea whatever then that the LUE map was a treasure map, and we were occupied in attempting to discern what the original purposes and intent were as far as the LUE mapping were concerned."

It seems that von Mueller and his friends took the time to copy the LUE and they didn't know what it was. Von Mueller also mentions "the LUE mapping", if you look at the LUE, there is nothing on it that looks like a map. I wonder if there was documentation included with the LUE that actually showed features of a map.

That's exactly what I have been thinking. Your mention of the mapping brings to mind your work with the lines and SDCFIA'S work with great circle mapping. You get close with the mapping and then get closer with the lines. If the lines don't exactly line up, you shoot the lines again from the closest crossing. You will have some other oral rendition, an artifact with multiple meanings, etc. Your keys to the lock if you will. I haven't had time to try running the lines back here, but I think your right.
Why did it have to be returned and where is it now? They are probably all gone, so why hasen't it surfaced? What would something like that even be worth if you could get it today? It looks more and more like the map did either originate with him and his group or they are part of something much bigger as suggested. These guys wern't dumb. They could easily have set around and drawn this up, "For those with eyes to see". Which could explain why it was published. Good old Persher code right? I've said it before, that I don't think the carvings exist in the field as he says in his book. Where are they and why haven't they surfaced over the years? IMHO, they should have. One thing I am puzzling over, is who trained them? This is old ancient knowledge, IMHO. Maybe he and his group where also Knights Templars? That would help tie up some loose ends don't you think?

 

[mdog]

That's exactly what I have been thinking. Your mention of the mapping brings to mind your work with the lines and SDCFIA'S work with great circle mapping. You get close with the mapping and then get closer with the lines. If the lines don't exactly line up, you shoot the lines again from the closest crossing. You will have some other oral rendition, an artifact with multiple meanings, etc. Your keys to the lock if you will. I haven't had time to try running the lines back here, but I think your right.
Why did it have to be returned and where is it now? They are probably all gone, so why hasen't it surfaced? What would something like that even be worth if you could get it today? It looks more and more like the map did either originate with him and his group or they are part of something much bigger as suggested. These guys wern't dumb. They could easily have set around and drawn this up, "For those with eyes to see". Which could explain why it was published. Good old Persher code right? I've said it before, that I don't think the carvings exist in the field as he says in his book. Where are they and why haven't they surfaced over the years? IMHO, they should have. One thing I am puzzeling over, is who trained them? This is old ancient knowledge, IMHO. Maybe he and his group where also Knights Templars? That would help tie up some loose ends don't you think?

Yes, it would be great to have the LUE map and any other related documentation or information. If it's Masonic, like I think it is, it's probably in a Lodge library, somewhere.

I think the mapping that I've posted, was a very long term effort, that involved the religious orders of the Knights Templar and maybe the Knights of Santiago. Treasure legends were a part of the mapping and the Knights of Santiago and the Templars were involved in moving treasure.

I don't know if von Mueller was a Templar but him and Hardrock Hammond were Masons as was Charles Kenworthy, another well known treasure hunter. It used to be that I thought the treasure plotting was done first and then the LUE map was created to lead to those treasures, but now I believe the LUE map was created first and the treasure sites were set up using the LUE map for guidance. And, like you said, creating the mapping would have been easy. You would need a map, you would draw a horizontal line that bisects the map, put at least two starting points on both ends of the line, put a starting point at the middle top of the map, at that starting point run a 257 deg. heading to the edge of the map, find the half way point on that heading and put another starting point there. That will give you six starting points on the map. When you have established those points, start running lines from those points to the edge of the map, you choose the rest of the headings. On the LUE map, the headings they chose are the Sun rays. After you finish running lines, just mark the intersections you want to use. I guess the hardest part would be to choose what kind of information you want to use in the field, could be markers or people at the location.

 

[cuzimloony]

That's exactly what I have been thinking. Your mention of the mapping brings to mind your work with the lines and SDCFIA'S work with great circle mapping. You get close with the mapping and then get closer with the lines. If the lines don't exactly line up, you shoot the lines again from the closest crossing. You will have some other oral rendition, an artifact with multiple meanings, etc. Your keys to the lock if you will. I haven't had time to try running the lines back here, but I think your right.
Why did it have to be returned and where is it now? They are probably all gone, so why hasen't it surfaced? What would something like that even be worth if you could get it today? It looks more and more like the map did either originate with him and his group or they are part of something much bigger as suggested. These guys wern't dumb. They could easily have set around and drawn this up, "For those with eyes to see". Which could explain why it was published. Good old Persher code right? I've said it before, that I don't think the carvings exist in the field as he says in his book. Where are they and why haven't they surfaced over the years? IMHO, they should have. One thing I am puzzling over, is who trained them? This is old ancient knowledge, IMHO. Maybe he and his group where also Knights Templars? That would help tie up some loose ends don't you think?

"Who trained them?"
von Gleek was a Mason no? If so, no training needed. Just show up to Lodge and think about the things you see and hear. In that way....the ancients train you with the rituals and symbols they developed, which is the beauty of timeless symbols. In that way, even Masons who "dont get it" STILL pass on ancient knowledge by learning and passing on the symbols and degree work. Its a beautiful system.
I wouldn't doubt if he/they were Templars too. It is very very very common that when a man becomes a Mason, to become not just a Master Mason, but also a Scottish Rite Mason AND a York Rite Mason (Templar side).
Very common, trust me

 

[mdog]

"Who trained them?"
von Gleek was a Mason no? If so, no training needed. Just show up to Lodge and think about the things you see and hear. In that way....the ancients train you with the rituals and symbols they developed, which is the beauty of timeless symbols. In that way, even Masons who "dont get it" STILL pass on ancient knowledge by learning and passing on the symbols and degree work. Its a beautiful system.
I wouldn't doubt if he/they were Templars too. It is very very very common that when a man becomes a Mason, to become not just a Master Mason, but also a Scottish Rite Mason AND a York Rite Mason (Templar side).
Very common, trust me

A York Rite Mason is a Templar?

 

[cuzimloony]

You tend to lean pretty much at the same tilt that I find myself, kinda similar to Greek Skepticism - how can we be certain anything is "true"? Humans are shockingly gullible as a group. Read my signature line.

Since this thread conjectures on "treasure" topics, the LUE in particular, the debates always seek some sort of bedrock truth from which to begin and proceed. The LUE doesn't really have one of those, at least one that is palatable to all. Notwithstanding the Nazi silliness and other recent TNet-based theories, the cartoon map and the enigmatic Miller are about all we have to work with. Since my working model supports the Organization Explanation (most well-publicized lost treasures in the USA are all cover stories for a unified network of private caches), I have to wonder if the LUE is in that group too. mdog's mapping work and links to "sacred knowledge" fit the modus operandi of the Organization. Can't prove any of it, of course, but it's the most logical approach when you look at the big picture, and the biggest picture is always the most telling for all curious topics, IMO.

The 16th century Europeans came over here with pre-conceived ideas about legendary riches in the New World. Local legends supported those ideas and soon there was a focus in the American Southwest trying to locate the Seven Cities of Cibola, which sounded a lot like the Seven Caves of Chicomoztoc. Supposedly, all efforts failed to locate these prizes - at least that was the published news. Others speculate that some very rich sites were actually found and secured. Quien sabe? I prefer the second conclusion.

Bottom line with the LUE enigma, IMO: 1) it's all coded knowledge, part of a larger picture with all the loot still controlled by it's owners; or 2) the whole LUE shebang itself is Pure-D bullshit, dreamed up by the trickster Miller.

I can't fault any of that.
The reasoning is sound, imo, for the most part

Im curious about the Organization in your theory and would like to hear more. It sounds like a good theory, but I start to question things when I come to this: IF the organization can just print money out of thin air and enslave you with that....why hide gold? They already own nations. Just put it in Ft. Knox and be done with it. Easy Peasy. And, if a treasure hunter or three found millions of dollars in a cave, would the organization even bat an eye? I dont think so....... BUT, maybe your Organization can't print money out of thin air like my (totally not real and only theorized) organization can

Something that struck me yesterday while watching my kids play at the mall playground..
I have read only 1 von Gladson book so take this with a grain of salt, but: Treasure Hunter's Manual #7 is a PRACTICAL book and after reading it, the author seems like a PRACTICAL guy. ie. buy leg gaitors, research before hand, here's how to use a sluice properly, look for mason jars under trees, etc... Practical. Then out of left field there is this "map," which doesn't seem to fit, at all, the practical book that it was in. It seems out of place not only in this book, but from him in particular. Maybe if I knew his work better, this impression would change....but as it is at this moment, it's odd to me.

 

[cuzimloony]

A York Rite Mason is a Templar?

York Rite Masonry is a degree system that you can only join if you are a Master Mason. In the York Rite system are a series of degrees or rituals which go in order. That order is Royal Arch, Cryptic Council and finally, Knights Templar.
The highest level attainable in the York Rite system, is Knight Templar.
So....you CAN be a York Rite Mason without being a Templar (if you havent reached that degree yet), but you cannot be a Templar without being a York Rite Mason.
Speaking of which........this just happens to be right next to me.

 

[mdog]

York Rite Masonry is a degree system that you can only join if you are a Master Mason. In the York Rite system are a series of degrees or rituals which go in order. That order is Royal Arch, Cryptic Council and finally, Knights Templar.
So......the highest level attainable in the York Rite system, is Knight Templar.
Speaking of which........this just happens to be right next to me.
View attachment 2184750

Thank you.

Here is an excerpt from this link. https://www.universalfreemasonry.org/en/article/the-sacred-altar

"From facts and hints such as these we begin to see the meaning of the Altar in Masonry, and the reason for its position in the Lodge. In English Lodges, as in the French and the Scottish Rites, it stands in front of the Master in the East. In the York Rite, so called, it is placed in the center of the Lodge - more properly a little to the East of the center - about which all Masonic activities revolve. "

In a recent post, I showed evidence that the small triangle in the bottom right quadrant of the LUE map, represented the alter in a Masonic Lodge. My main point of evidence was the position of the small triangle was a little bit east of center. That would indicate York Rite and Knights Templar, kind of like a signature on the LUE map. If the LUE map is Knights Templar, that might explain why von Mueller put the LUE in his book and used the word "Shibboleth" in the caption. Maybe von Mueller was fishing for information from the Templars and by using the word "Shibboleth" under the map, he would let the Templars know that he was a Mason.

 

[cuzimloony]

Thank you.

Here is an excerpt from this link. https://www.universalfreemasonry.org/en/article/the-sacred-altar

"From facts and hints such as these we begin to see the meaning of the Altar in Masonry, and the reason for its position in the Lodge. In English Lodges, as in the French and the Scottish Rites, it stands in front of the Master in the East. In the York Rite, so called, it is placed in the center of the Lodge - more properly a little to the East of the center - about which all Masonic activities revolve. "

In a recent post, I showed evidence that the small triangle in the bottom right quadrant of the LUE map, represented the alter in a Masonic Lodge. My main point of evidence was the position of the small triangle was a little bit east of center. That would indicate York Rite and Knights Templar, kind of like a signature on the LUE map. If the LUE map is Knights Templar, that might explain why von Mueller put the LUE in his book and used the word "Shibboleth" in the caption. Maybe von Mueller was fishing for information from the Templars and by using the word "Shibboleth" under the map, he would let the Templars know that he was a Mason.

Your triangle theory aside: there would be nothing else in this "map" that would "scream" Templar, to me at this point. (I leave open the possibility that this might change as I learn new things...)
Most, if not all, Templars who saw this "map" would see only symbols from the 1st three degrees, imo. (Bricks, blazing stars, pyramids, circumpuncts, Saints John, etc are all basic Master Mason stuff.) It would only be this tiny triangle's position (so far) that indicates "Templar" and Im saying, it would go over most of our heads, unless we were friends with Deek von Karl and knew the joke OR unless they just happened to be Templar Treasure Hunters (Where are the others?? Please contact me! Im the only living one I know of!!!!)

Most Knights Templars are not treasure hunters, and the small triangle's position in this convoluted "map" would go right over their (our) heads. It takes a bit of work to find NSEW on this map, then to locate THAT smaller triangle in the sea of others, and to figure out what it means based on position, etc...
Templars are more concerned with inner alchemy than finding gold from maps....usually, although they did of course, hide many many things from people.

Case in point: YOU had to show ME the possible meaning of this triangle/map and I am a Templar This map is for treasure hunters, not Templars, imo...

BUT....your comment about him fishing for info is interesting.... Im going to have to chew on that a bit. Maybe this "map" WAS a fishing expedition. Its sure not giving us knowledge so, maybe its LOOKING for knowledge instead. Interesting idea and one Im not ruling out.

Triangles in general, can be Templarish, but they very much exist outside Templarism as well.

My 2 cents: Seeing Masonic in this map is easy. Seeing Templar in this map is a longer shot and a bigger stretch.
Im not saying its not there, however....

Im also not saying that you're wrong. On the contrary, I think you still might be on to something (Aztec theories aside...) and completely support your progress. I am not here to derail, only to give a layman/Masonic perspective. Have a little patience with me and in a few months I might be more learned up and better able to assist in the THunting aspect of this For now, just take my opinions as a normal Mason-guy's opinions and with that proverbial grain of salt.
Thanks for your patience. Im working on getting myself "learned up" to be better able to help. As it is, all I have are laymans opinions at this point.....

 

[mdog]

Your triangle theory aside: there would be nothing else in this "map" that would "scream" Templar, to me at this point. (I leave open the possibility that this might change as I learn new things...)
Most, if not all, Templars who saw this "map" would see only symbols from the 1st three degrees, imo. (Bricks, blazing stars, pyramids, circumpuncts, Saints John, etc are all basic Master Mason stuff.) It would only be this tiny triangle's position (so far) that indicates "Templar" and Im saying, it would go over most of our heads, unless we were friends with Deek von Karl and knew the joke OR unless they just happened to be Templar Treasure Hunters (Where are the others?? Please contact me! Im the only living one I know of!!!!)

Most Knights Templars are not treasure hunters, and the small triangle's position in this convoluted "map" would go right over their (our) heads. It takes a bit of work to find NSEW on this map, then to locate THAT smaller triangle in the sea of others, and to figure out what it means based on position, etc...
Templars are more concerned with inner alchemy than finding gold from maps....usually, although they did of course, hide many many things from people.

Case in point: YOU had to show ME the possible meaning of this triangle/map and I am a Templar This map is for treasure hunters, not Templars, imo...

BUT....your comment about him fishing for info is interesting.... Im going to have to chew on that a bit. Maybe this "map" WAS a fishing expedition. Its sure not giving us knowledge so, maybe its LOOKING for knowledge instead. Interesting idea and one Im not ruling out.

Triangles in general, can be Templarish, but they very much exist outside Templarism as well.

My 2 cents: Seeing Masonic in this map is easy. Seeing Templar in this map is a longer shot and a bigger stretch.
Im not saying its not there, however....

Im also not saying that you're wrong. On the contrary, I think you still might be on to something (Aztec theories aside...) and completely support your progress. I am not here to derail, only to give a layman/Masonic perspective. Have a little patience with me and in a few months I might be more learned up and better able to assist in the THunting aspect of this For now, just take my opinions as a normal Mason-guy's opinions and with that proverbial grain of salt.
Thanks for your patience. Im working on getting myself "learned up" to be better able to help. As it is, all I have are laymans opinions at this point.....

I think that showing obvious symbols would defeat the purpose of the LUE map. The LUE map doesn't look anything like a Masonic Tracing Board but it has many of the elements of a board. For example, the shallow curved line could indicate the celestial sphere at the top of one of the two columns in front of Solomon's Temple. The curved line could also recognize the two Saints John and their Holy days near the summer solstice and the winter solstice. The curved line also shows the position of the Sun on June 22nd, I believe that's near St. John the Baptist's Day. I don't think the symbols on the LUE are meant to scream out at you. The LUE is showing a message that can be studied by all Masons but, I believe, the position of the small triangle identifies who is sending the message.

 

[sdcfia]

. . . . IF the organization can just print money out of thin air and enslave you with that....why hide gold? . . . .

The questions you'd likely ask - the really big ones, not just the money stuff - arise from the de facto thousands of years of control of humans on the planet, all the way back to the Elohim. We won't go there. Let's just stick to the money stuff - the magnet for most of us here on TNet.

There is allegedly a self-organizing collective that has resisted the international central banking cartel that has had its hooks in the USA since the beginning. Cutting rapidly to the chase, a group called the Knights of the Golden Circle was a capable group of influentials that opposed the bankers who financed both sides of the Civil War, and plotted against that version of the deep state for generations afterwards. They gained momentum with the country's forced acceptance of the Federal Reserve in 1913 and began accumulating gold. When the fiat US dollar was heavily devalued against gold (constitutional money) by the US traitor FDR in 1933, the Organization ramped up and began methodically and cunningly caching gold bullion in numerous US locations - anticipating the fiat currency to ultimately fail and securing their potential future influence by virtue of their stores of gold ("real money"). A hopeful political insurance policy of sorts for them, you might say.

Many "treasure legends" were born following FDR's Gold Act of 1933 with the designation of general cache locations described by published cover stories of their origins and bolstered by mostly unsolvable clues, sacred geometry, etc. soon to be discovered in the field by searchers. More legends surfaced following Nixon's total decoupling of the $US from physical gold in 1971. Same MO - cover story, clues found, caches proved illusive.

So you see, these organization guys were not the printers of fiat currency, they were the antithesis to it and the owners of the real money, which they hid for safe keeping. When the $US, BTC, etc. all go room temperature, maybe some of these faceless organization folks will make themselves known. Or not.