LUE MAP THEORY, MAYBE SOME CONTEXT

[LUE-Hawn]

I agree with you. In order for long distance mapping to work, latitude and longitude would have to be accurately plotted, and even than you could only get close.

Literally, I’m on it. Having used Common Sense.

Regards

LUE-Hawn

 

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[LUE-Hawn]

I think I've seen your avatar before. Weren't there two markers?
If you go south on that longitude, you'll end up by Black Lake where a treasure was reported found.
The longitude of 105 deg 15' is part of the LUE legend but what I was trying to do is find out what on the LUE clue indicated that longitude.

MD,

Primarily, anything found south such as Black Lake or Mora, New Mexico is not necessarily the LUE but it does have several sites that have generated an association with the LUE According to KVM. The actual LUE isn’t located anywhere near those two towns. The only real association is the 105 degree longitude line as an area to look at or search in the physical sense such as boots on the ground.

Yes on the Avatar as there is another located in the St. James Hotel in Cimarron, New Mexico. I have been to the one in the ground and the one at the hotel. The one at the hotel has a reference to the LUE in a subtle way.

Regards

LUE-Hawn

 

[LUE-Hawn]

I think I've seen your avatar before. Weren't there two markers?
If you go south on that longitude, you'll end up by Black Lake where a treasure was reported found.
The longitude of 105 deg 15' is part of the LUE legend but what I was trying to do is find out what on the LUE clue indicated that longitude.

MD,

If you don’t have it already I suggest you get yourself a copy of TOTVOS it will give you valuable insight as to what the LUE represents according to Derek Gladson aka KVM aka Dean Miller all one in the same. Once again as you stated the photograph of KVM probably taken below Culebra Peak looking for the cave of AU And the story of how it came to be?

Regards

LUE-Hawn

 

[sdcfia]

That' because you're an ole grouch with no sense of wonder.

Ha ha. Yes, the older I get (how did that happen so fast?) and the more I experience, the more I realize what Boke Bowker told me 40 years ago is likely spot on: "Everything you've been convinced to believe is a lie to some degree, modest or huge."

The observation and understanding of human nature may be the sharpest tool in your bag. It's been that way for many thousands of years. Sun Tzu, Machiavelli, Bernays, et al - they're just the more recent published cunning practitioners.

 

[Ryano]

Photo from Google Maps (photo vantage point near Purgatoire Campground) .. pretty sure it's the same spot shown in this photo below (taken from The Travels of Hardrock Hendricks by Faye Hendricks, RAM 1976)

 

[Ryano]

37°14'49.12" N 105°08'07.26" W

Best effort using Google Earth's to match those photos (had to change the default Elevation Exaggeration setting back to =1.0 before 3D terrain features properly matched the photos) but rendered at a higher altitude so its more obvious what area KVM and companions were looking (at least according to the photos they shared with public LOL)
IMHO the red circle is where previously posted photo was taken along with the supposed deformation caused by the alleged dynamite explosion in the book The Scarlet Shadow

(I realize this doesn't add to dicussion about MDog's theory , so my apologies to MDog . I got excited when my Hardrock Hammond book finally arrived after previous attempts ordering it had failed.. I wanted to share that photo from the book as I've not seen it before on these forums. I'm firmly in the camp that the LUE and the Valley of Secrets "Cave of Gold" are the same.

 

[Ryano]

I would love to see the replica that Bob found.
Randy, has anybody seen the original LUE clue that Karl copied?

Yeah.. Randy - didn't KVM intimate that the LUE Map he published may not have bore much likeness to the "original" ??

 

[Ryano]

It seems like the Kensington Runestone mapping was created to draw your attention to specific areas in the United States and Oak Island. It seems like the LUE clue was created to introduce the Kensington Runestone mapping and to draw your attention to the San Luis Valley area of southern Colorado and northern New Mexico.
In his book, Enter the Valley, author Christopher O'Brien lists many treasure legends associated with the San Luis Valley and the mountains around it. These are the legends listed in his book.
Alex Cobsky's Lost Mine near Silver Mountain, northeast of La Veta Pass • The Arapaho Princess Treasure, near the Spanish Peaks • Caverna del Oro, on Marble Mountain • George Skinner's Lost Mine, on Horn Peak Mountain -• The Green Lost Mine, west of Red Wing, Colorado • The Lost Mine of the Greenhorn Mountains,just east of the Wet Mountain Valley • Henry Sefton's Treasure, on the east side of the Sangres • The fabled Huajatolla Gold, on the SpanishPeaks • Jack Simpson's Lost Mine, on Silver Mountain, east of La Veta, Colorado • The Jasper Lost Mine, near Red Wing • Juan Carlos's Lost Gold, on the Blanca Massif • The Lost Pick Mine of Veta Creek, north of La Veta Creek in the Huerfano • The Lost Veta Mine, north of La Veta Creekin the Huerfano • The Treasure of the Spanish Fort, twenty-fivemiles west of Walsenburg • Cannady's Murder Money, in Taos Canyon• The Chavez Lost Copper Mine, north of El Rito, New Mexico • The Grinning Skull Treasure, in the Sangres east of Taos • Gus Lawson's Lost Mine, on Taos Mountain• Juan Gallule's and Techato Martinez's Lost Mine, on Jicarita Peak • Madame Barcelo's Lost Treasure, forty miles east of Taos • Padre Mora's Treasure, Kit Carson State Park, southeast of Taos • Rio Grande Gold, on the Rio Grande, north of Taos • Simeon Turley's Lost Mine and Treasure, about twelve miles northwest of Taos • The Treasure of Tres Piedras, west of Tres Piedras, New Mexico • White's Lost Mine, near the town of Amalia, New Mexico • The Spanish Treasure of Blanca Peak, on Blanca Peak, north of Fort Garland, Colorado • The Lost Mine of Embargo Creek, east of Creede, Colorado • The Paymaster's Treasure of Fort Garland, on Trincera Creek, south of Fort Garland • The Lost Mine of Hidden Valley, near La Jara Creek, west of Capulin • The Josh Thomas Treasure, on Conejos Creek, west of Anton ito, Colorado • Manuel Torres Lost Mine, on Culebra Peak, southeast of San Luis, Colorado • Mark Bidell's Lost Lode, near Saguache Creek, northwest of Del Norte, Colorado • The Phantom Mine, Davis Gulch, six miles south of Crestone • The Lost Brother Mine, north of San Isabelle Creek • The Lost Sidney Brother Mine, Burnt Gulch, just east of Crestone • The Disappearing Sand Dunes Wagon, Great Sand Dunes National Monument • The Lost Mine of Mogate Peak, east of Creede, Colorado The Buried Treasure of Round Hill, just south of Poncha Pass • The Lost Mine in the Sangres, near Cottonwood Creek, five miles south of Crestone • The Missouri Bank Robbery Treasure, between Music and Mosca Pass • The Center [Colorado] Bank Heist Loot, north of Moffat, Colorado, at the Grey Ranch • The Lost Treasure of Treasure Mountain, east of Pagosa Springs • White's Lost Cement Mine, on Culebra Peak, Costilla County.

As you can see, there are many legends associated with this area and some are associated with the mountains in the Treasure Mountain/Auriga layout.

Okay. So do you think the purpose of the LUE Map is that it's a template of sorts for "celestial land navigators" created for others who didn't want to follow the usual trade routes and signposts to their destination ? Is there enough information encoded here for an pre-20th century traveler in Mexico City, New Orleans, or even Madrid Spain to find their way to Treasure Mountain, Cave of Gold etc etc ?

 

[mdog]

37°14'49.12" N 105°08'07.26" W

Best effort using Google Earth's to match those photos (had to change the default Elevation Exaggeration setting back to =1.0 before 3D terrain features properly matched the photos) but rendered at a higher altitude so its more obvious what area KVM and companions were looking (at least according to the photos they shared with public LOL)
IMHO the red circle is where previously posted photo was taken along with the supposed deformation caused by the alleged dynamite explosion in the book The Scarlet Shadow
View attachment 2144197



(I realize this doesn't add to dicussion about MDog's theory , so my apologies to MDog . I got excited when my Hardrock Hammond book finally arrived after previous attempts ordering it had failed.. I wanted to share that photo from the book as I've not seen it before on these forums. I'm firmly in the camp that the LUE and the Valley of Secrets "Cave of Gold" are the same.

Thank you very much for the great information, Ryano. I wonder what drew them to that spot.
Great information.

 

[Ryano]

Thank you very much for the great information, Ryano. I wonder what drew them to that spot.
Great information.

my guess is KVM did his best using the info in Scarlet Shadow and spent years trekking up and down the mountaintops following leads from area locals until he found (or thought he found) what he was looking for. Incidently, as Randy has pointed out in older posts, there's an old Uranium mine nearby. Long-sealed up for safety reasons and the exact location isn't clear but I wonder if in his day that information wasn't available to him and he thought it was "The Cave of Gold". Hmm ??

---update, found the mine

Fan Dyke No. 1

The Fan Dyke No. 1 is a uranium mine located in Las Animas county, Colorado at an elevation of 10,899 feet

westernmininghistory.com

this puts the "Fan Dyke" Uranium mine smack dab in the area.

2.25 MILES SE OF TRINCHERA PEAK. EXACT LOCATION UNCERTAIN. OTHER FAN DYKE AND PHEBOLITE CLAIMS LIE IN SEC. 18 AND ADJACENT SECTIONS. MAY INCLUDE PROSPECTS IN NE OF NW SEC. 20. LAT-LONG GIVEN IS FOR CENTER SEC. 18. ; INFO FROM LAND.ST 1975)

 

[mdog]

Okay. So do you think the purpose of the LUE Map is that it's a template of sorts for "celestial land navigators" created for others who didn't want to follow the usual trade routes and signposts to their destination ? Is there enough information encoded here for an pre-20th century traveler in Mexico City, New Orleans, or even Madrid Spain to find their way to Treasure Mountain, Cave of Gold etc etc ?

My theory is that the LUE clue, by itself, won't lead you anywhere without additional information. I think the additional information is the Kensington Runestone mapping and the star chart. The runestone mapping is shown in the lower right quadrant. The star chart is represented by the curved lines and confirmed by the Auriga Constellation above the mirror symbol (oblong shape). The LUE clue and the Kensington Runestone mapping will give you coordinates, but you need both maps.
I think the LUE clue dates to the mid 1930s and the Kensington Runestone mapping was constructed during the mid to late 1800s.
I think the LUE clue was some type of coded warning to gold producing regions in the west and maybe even specifically to the area around the San Luis Valley. I've seen something similar in the diary of John Henry Stevenson. The alleged diary was about the relationship between Michael O'Laughlen and the wife of John Wilkes Booth. But throughout the diary gold was being moved around the country. The gold started out as coin and then it was melted down into bars. The bullion was moved from Virginia to San Francisco and then back east to be sold during the manipulation of gold prices by Gould and Fisk. It just seems similar to what I feel that the LUE clue might be telling you.

 

[mdog]

Yeah.. Randy - didn't KVM intimate that the LUE Map he published may not have bore much likeness to the "original" ??

So, if this is true, he might have left out information that was important to the solution of the puzzle.

 

[Randy Bradford]

Yeah.. Randy - didn't KVM intimate that the LUE Map he published may not have bore much likeness to the "original" ??

Not at all, he made it quite clear it was an exact copy of the map that Hardrock Hammond had borrowed from a man in Arizona in the 1950s. They copied it because the map had to be returned.

 

[sdcfia]

37°14'49.12" N 105°08'07.26" W

Best effort using Google Earth's to match those photos (had to change the default Elevation Exaggeration setting back to =1.0 before 3D terrain features properly matched the photos) but rendered at a higher altitude so its more obvious what area KVM and companions were looking (at least according to the photos they shared with public LOL)
IMHO the red circle is where previously posted photo was taken along with the supposed deformation caused by the alleged dynamite explosion in the book The Scarlet Shadow
View attachment 2144197



(I realize this doesn't add to dicussion about MDog's theory , so my apologies to MDog . I got excited when my Hardrock Hammond book finally arrived after previous attempts ordering it had failed.. I wanted to share that photo from the book as I've not seen it before on these forums. I'm firmly in the camp that the LUE and the Valley of Secrets "Cave of Gold" are the same.

Great work Ryano.

I'm sure there must have been a number of LUE searchers in those mountains over the years. The only one I corresponded with was Patrick Donnell, now deceased, whose family was boots on the ground for years. Whether or not Patrick was focused on the "Von Mueller" location in the old photo is unknown, as Patrick played his cards close to the vest. As with all intelligent THers, he was frequently seeking information and disguising his discussions. Smart and careful guy. Human nature commands that if you have proprietary information about these things - or believe you do - the really good stuff is NEVER revealed. That's also a reason to be somewhat skeptical about the photo's location.

I have my own ideas about what the the LUE is, and Patrick seemingly did too. In general, I suspect he was in the proper vicinity of whatever the mystery was. What he found, if anything, may never come to light.
https://www.treasurenet.com/threads/the-lue-map-and-the-nazi-connection-3.692173/page-4#post-7180195

 

[mdog]

Hey, dog, I was digging through my old files and came across something that may be of interest. It's a version of the LUE map, annotated. This version has been seen and discussed before, but the file I found it in is what caught my attention. Oddly, it was in an old KGC file labeled "Templates".

I can't remember the context of why it was in a template file (most of that info is years old and I've slept too many times since then), except that JW told me the LUE map, or any other drawing, could be used as a template. He believed the LUE was a KGC thing. The other templates in the folder relate to fairly well-known KGC overlays. These are patterns copied onto a piece of opaque or clear film and then overlaid onto a USGS topo map. Obviously, the scale is important, but also of great importance, as I recall, is the angle of rotation used for the template. The templates are generally squared circles, divided into angles, containing regularly spaced dots and thing at certain spacings. They sort of look like a modified medicine wheel in a way. Allegedly, if you knew how to use it, you could transfer certain important points on the overlay onto spots on the topo map.

The LUE map is unique and obviously nothing like these other templates. Of course, you would have to know what symbols, angles, intersection of lines, curves, etc. were the important ones, what scale to use to create the overlay, and which USGS map to overlay onto. Simple enough, right? It kinda seems like this is what you've been working on with the mapping.

View attachment 2143706

Sdcfia, do you know if the KGC templates were meant to get you close to markers that would lead you to the target?

 

[sdcfia]

Sdcfia, do you know if the KGC templates were meant to get you close to markers that would lead you to the target?

That's a really good question mdog. I've heard two explanations about the templates. Method one is that the template is scaled to match 7.5 minute USGS topo maps by sections (one square mile). When overlaid, a searcher uses the marks, angles, etc on the template to give him a target in the field within that section to search for physical clues (carvings, metal objects, etc). Then, if the searcher can find the clues, he uses them to somehow solve the riddle using logic, geometry, etc. Of course, the key to the procedure is knowing which map section to begin with.
Method two: the searcher has already found clues in the field on his own and he then uses the template to line up the clues with marks on the overlay. If he knows how to use the template, he can somehow then pinpoint where to look for the cache. Method one uses the template as a starting point, method two works in reverse and uses the template to finish the job.

Supposedly, the templates were "secret" tools to be used with clues found in the field to make the whole game work and find the cache. Trouble is, they aren't all that secret.

Without any way of verifying it, my strong suspicion is that the templates are just another tool, along with the physical clues, used to lead searchers astray from caches, running them in circles until they get discouraged and quit the chase. I do believe that there are caches out there, but I suspect they're securely hidden where nosy treasure hunters won't be able to find them. Another layer of security?

 

[mdog]

That's a really good question mdog. I've heard two explanations about the templates. Method one is that the template is scaled to match 7.5 minute USGS topo maps by sections (one square mile). When overlaid, a searcher uses the marks, angles, etc on the template to give him a target in the field within that section to search for physical clues (carvings, metal objects, etc). Then, if the searcher can find the clues, he uses them to somehow solve the riddle using logic, geometry, etc. Of course, the key to the procedure is knowing which map section to begin with.
Method two: the searcher has already found clues in the field on his own and he then uses the template to line up the clues with marks on the overlay. If he knows how to use the template, he can somehow then pinpoint where to look for the cache. Method one uses the template as a starting point, method two works in reverse and uses the template to finish the job.

Supposedly, the templates were "secret" tools to be used with clues found in the field to make the whole game work and find the cache. Trouble is, they aren't all that secret.

Without any way of verifying it, my strong suspicion is that the templates are just another tool, along with the physical clues, used to lead searchers astray from caches, running them in circles until they get discouraged and quit the chase. I do believe that there are caches out there, but I suspect they're securely hidden where nosy treasure hunters won't be able to find them. Another layer of security?

Sdcfia, thank you for the great post. I might have found a template on the LUE clue. I'll get my information together and post it later. Thanks again.

 

[Randy Bradford]

Sdcfia, do you know if the KGC templates were meant to get you close to markers that would lead you to the target?

I've long felt the LUE in it's current state would require more than just the map itself to uncover cache sites. Given there is no scale (at least not overtly) it always seemed logical that the idea was for the map to put you in the region to find symbols in the field to "narrow the gap" as it were. Assuming the small rock panels in TotVoS is authentic, these would seem to confirm this suspicion. Similarly, Karl had pictures and wrote about monument sites and tree blazes as well. These are what got me thinking about the possible connection to the Treasure Mountain story, since multiple recovery sites, tree blazes and a map feature prominently in that story.

Perhaps food for further discussion would be the current state of cache sites. Even in Karl's days (60 years ago) monuments were being destroyed and moved to throw off LUE searchers. Is it possible that many cache sites remain that will be near impossible to find due to the destruction of on-site markers and clues?

If you're familiar with the Texas Spider Rock treasure (and plats), i'm convinced that's a great case where too much work by folks have degraded the site to such a degree that nothing will be found except by accident. The LUE, or some aspects of it, might be similarly impacted. Black Lake was allegedly bought up by a housing development after the rush to recover "pots" there. Makes me wonder if anyone in the building phase uncovered something or inadvertently buried it beyond the point of deliberate recovery...

 

[mdog]

Sdcfia the LUE clue with the two dots in the lower right quadrant worked out pretty good as a possible template. I started at the middle of the small circle in the upper right quadrant and ran lines through both small dots and the point of the small triangle. I showed the headings but I also tried the headings starting at 87 deg. After I drew the red lines on the LUE clue I traced them on a piece of wax paper, the stuff my wife always tells me to stay out of.

At the place I study, there's a big stone heart at the beginning of the camp, coming in from the west. I used that marker as the starting point. The 87 deg heading goes to a small D shaped rock with pointer, about a hundred feet away. A hundred feet past that is a 6x10 foot depression almost completely eroded in.

The 177 deg heading goes about 100 yards to a small directional carving. That led to an overhang on a rock shelf that might be a covered cave opening. There's a well defined 43" long vertical line carved right above the spot that might be the opening.

Things worked out pretty good here. If a person got lucky and found the right sized map, you could probably stick pins where the dots and the triangle point is, and find more spots to search.

I figure the overlay might be good for a couple miles on a map. The template should get you close to markers.

Now, what I want to know is, who sculpts big hearts. Kenworthy says Spanish but Kenworthy was a Mason, or so I've heard, so would he protect certain information that would be important to the Masons? I saw one of Terry Carter's videos and the man he was interviewing had information that the Masons asked Charles to change the meaning of the bell symbol. So who's carving big stone hearts, the Spanish or the Masons.

 

[mdog]

I've long felt the LUE in it's current state would require more than just the map itself to uncover cache sites. Given there is no scale (at least not overtly) it always seemed logical that the idea was for the map to put you in the region to find symbols in the field to "narrow the gap" as it were. Assuming the small rock panels in TotVoS is authentic, these would seem to confirm this suspicion. Similarly, Karl had pictures and wrote about monument sites and tree blazes as well. These are what got me thinking about the possible connection to the Treasure Mountain story, since multiple recovery sites, tree blazes and a map feature prominently in that story.

Perhaps food for further discussion would be the current state of cache sites. Even in Karl's days (60 years ago) monuments were being destroyed and moved to throw off LUE searchers. Is it possible that many cache sites remain that will be near impossible to find due to the destruction of on-site markers and clues?

If you're familiar with the Texas Spider Rock treasure (and plats), i'm convinced that's a great case where too much work by folks have degraded the site to such a degree that nothing will be found except by accident. The LUE, or some aspects of it, might be similarly impacted. Black Lake was allegedly bought up by a housing development after the rush to recover "pots" there. Makes me wonder if anyone in the building phase uncovered something or inadvertently buried it beyond the point of deliberate recovery...

Thanks for the post, Randy. There is so much information about treasure signs and symbols that you could go into the sticks, on a long weekend and create a cache site, just to mess with people. If you find markers in the field. the most important thing you have to do is figure out why they were put there. If somebody is creating treasure signs, it makes it that much harder to do your research.

I'm fortunate because I'm not a treasure hunter, so I don't have the stress of trying to make a recovery. I sure would like to know who carved the big rock hearts, though.

By the way, the place that I study is right on the line from St, Augustine to the Kensington Runestone site. The markers at the site and fifteen miles west indicate a Spanish trail coming in from the west to a river camp. The markers are exactly what Kenworthy describes in his books. However, for seventy years, starting in the mid 1800s, the property was owned by a family with several active Masons, three had been 33rd degree Masons. At least one was a Knights Templar and one of the richest men in America in the late 1800s. During the 1880s, a man came to the property who was also a Mason and a probable member of the KGC. I've found smaller and deep carvings by some of the Spanish monuments, like somebody was tracking the Spanish stuff and updating it with their own carvings. So, if the Masons were leaving their own stuff and if they sculpted the two large hearts, at this spot, maybe it was to mark a Masonic cache site on the Kensington Runestone map. More questions than answers.