LUE clue...the Obit of Hardrock Hammond

[cyzak]

Interesting rocks. Are they related to the Ajo/Sells/LUE treasures?

I try not to go stumbling around in country like that, I prefer to watch my step. Never know when you could step off into a coyote hole and break a leg.

Lets just say defiantly in the area.Its not a good area to be and will probably be like that for awhile the Cartel is not happy down there.

 

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[Crow]

Desert Magazine did a 1950s era article on Ajo and the copper mining...I'd be happy to post if anyone's interested...

Hello Randy

Thank you its a great' if anything a 1950s take on the mining in the Ajo region.

All of these like things clears the vision a lille among the smoke and mirrors.

Crow

 

[Crow]

This is the problem when you start putting people on pedestals they become a god and do no wrong and make no errors. But the harsh reality in life is far different. no ones perfect. And that's the problem imperfect stories where people hang off every claim words for word with out ever verifying.

I tend to think the Ajo treasure story is a wild goose chase. Centered on the central character John E Johnston? Sound familiar? Many treasure legends are based on the words of one man? And how truth is in the words of story teller? I think this Johnston liked spinning yarns personally. Perhaps he like the notoriety.

Hardrock Hammond and KVM believed in John E Johnston claims. But KVM and Hardrock Hammond never had the technology we had today verify such claims? I no doubt they both searched for it. But article does not really indicated they actually found any thing in 1957?

But its all too easy for a story becoming blown out proportions..

The fact remains No John E Johnston exists. But it is true I believe that the person behind John E Johnston was real but his name was actually John A Johnson. The records confirm that. In truth that slight error is pardonable in KVM retelling the story. I think KVM accepted things in good faith what he was told. And like me and everyone else we have memory slips in retelling a story even in good faith.

Yes there was John Alfred Johnson. He was Swedish by birth came to America with his Swedish parents in 1910 and became naturalised. In 1930 he was working in mines at AJO right at very time mining was put on hold. So that part of story I believe.

Here is him listed as Diamond driller he was 39 at the time married to Eva Mae Johnson. He had one son called John Clarence Johnson born in 1926 at bulff Utah. John Alfred Johnson was the only swede with that name working at Ajo around the time of this alleged treasure discovery. It appears John Alfred Johnson worked away from his family where he worked at the AJO mine.

He was born 11th December 1890 Oskarshamn, Oskarshamns kommun, Kalmar län, Sweden His parents was His father was Jonas Nicklsson and his mother was Anna Sofia Peterdotter

He died age 93 on 4 Apr. 1984 aged 93 at Bluff, San Juan County, Utah, United States of America. his son Clarence died 1st of July 1998.

You can see John Alfred Johnson headstone below.

I suspect if Carl actually met this man? As a author he was not going to put a mans life at risk by giving his true address at risk. So I think Gilla bend was Ruse to protect Johnson's privacy?

There was Johnston's living at Gila bend in the right time period but no John E Johnston? Now with the other names given in the story Jack Brewer. And Roger Martin. There is no evidence these two men existed at all? Not in and census, Immigration records crossing border from England , Ireland or any of them later traveling to South America.

Karl could not have known that because he and hard rock Hammond could not have access to records we have today. Hell I researched and treasure hunting all over world pre internet days and I know how hard and expensive to get access to records to confirm this.

I done more then my share going down the rabbit holes and getting no closer where you started. While archival records are not without their issues. they much better to get closer to the truth than just hearsay.

I have respect for Karl as no one can say did not live the last years of his life doing what he clearly loved doing. But like with all treasure hunters ya cant hang off word for word being true. Other wise you will spend a life time going in circles down that proverbial rabbit hole.

Another thing with these treasure legends I love em all. but you cannot become emotional attached to them. You have to go where the facts take you.

As for it being a catch connected if it was real to begin with to the alleged Lue? At this point I time I suspect is fanciful wishful thinking.

Crow

 

[sdcfia]

As promised...not only the NPG version of the Ajo Tresure story but also the entry from The Encyclopedia of Tresure Hunting and for comprehensiveness, the picture I posted previously along with a few comments. A couple of leads in here to run down, for the really research minded. Pardon the formatting, T-Net has some limitations that make direct copies with format difficult at best. Document is available in PDF if you'd like, simply email your request to: rbradford1@kc.rr.com

Ajo Treasure
By KARL von MUELLER
National Prospector’s Gazette
Volume 3, No. 2 – March-April 1957​

Thanks Randy, great story. Treasure magazine-great, in fact, with the usual red flags inserted to juice things up and confuse things.

A young Mexican acquaintance leads the three trail-wise prospectors to the promised land of hidden treasure, then disappears to go visit his family. Their route to the gold, some 20 miles east of the main road, today's Route 85, is carefully mapped out, step by step. A fabulous cache of riches is located. Their return trip home on foot in the desert is joyous to start with, then disaster strikes - they break their compass and lose their notes. Now they're lost, and instead of just turning west and walking back to the road, like seasoned prospectors, they argue about heading either to the Gila River, 90 miles north as the crow flies, or to the Gulf of California, 50 miles southwest. They decide to head for the river, negotiating the arid Sonoran Desert with whatever they can carry on their backs, including gold ingots. 90 miles through the desert carrying gold ingots is a brutal hike, even if it's winter. Where will they find water? Presumably days later, they reach a town, bone dry and delirious with fatigue. The 1957 version says it was Casa Grande, the 1965 photo says it was Gila Bend. The three prospectors tell their story, likely heavily inveigled, and allegedly after their recovery go their separate ways - but more like back to the stash to get more. Decades later, in old age, Johnson presumably tells KVM the true facts so that he can publish it in the 1957 article.

If the three prospectors indeed found a cache 95 years ago - and it's quite plausible - my take is that the story published by KVM has no vital information in it. Did KVM and Hammond get intel from Johnson 30 years after the alleged discovery that allowed them to locate the stash? Again, it's plausible, but also again, IMO, KVM's article lacks the whole truth of where the cache was. It's simple human nature. How does any of this connect to the LUE? How does anything connect to the LUE? What exactly is the LUE? Always the same questions, always relating to KVM.

 

[Randy Bradford]

If the three prospectors indeed found a cache 95 years ago - and it's quite plausible - my take is that the story published by KVM has no vital information in it. Did KVM and Hammond get intel from Johnson 30 years after the alleged discovery that allowed them to locate the stash? Again, it's plausible, but also again, IMO, KVM's article lacks the whole truth of where the cache was. It's simple human nature. How does any of this connect to the LUE? How does anything connect to the LUE? What exactly is the LUE? Always the same questions, always relating to KVM.

Agreed on all points.

That said, I don't think Ajo has anything to do with the LUE, never did. In fact, when Karl did the Obit for Hammond he listed them separately as treasures discovered by Hammond. Beyond saying that the LUE map came from someone in that region, Karl was pretty adamant that Colorado and New Mexico were cache sites based on the 105 degree map marker, and hinted that other LUE caches were in Mexico along the same line of demarcation.

Karl never suggested there was a connection, so I think it's safe to assume there is none.

 

[cyzak]

Interesting rocks. Are they related to the Ajo/Sells/LUE treasures?

I try not to go stumbling around in country like that, I prefer to watch my step. Never know when you could step off into a coyote hole and break a leg.

You remember Holyground he new more about that country down there than anybody I had ever new. I am proud to call him one of my few friends.

 

[Puff the Tragic Wagon]

You remember Holyground he new more about that country down there than anybody I had ever new. I am proud to call him one of my few friends.

Apparently this Holyground is no longer a member? I did read some of his material and prefer to withhold an opinion.

I’m in agreement with the general consensus regarding the LUE, and the Ajo/Sells caches being totally unrelated. While I’m not particularly interested in those alleged caches, I do find the Johnson character with the LUE cattle brand a person of interest.

I did find a bit of perfidy here on the forums that may explain why the OP of the previous post I mentioned regarding the purported Sells cache is no longer on the forum. Apparently he was using two different accounts here under different names. And quite different stories as you can see here…..

LUE

Mike, what's your take on the LUE ? You've done a lot of real research into the history of Church & Conquest in the Americas - have you seen anything in archive texts or field discoveries that would support the idea of mammoth-sized caches of gold and\or silver ingots buried in the present-day...

www.treasurenet.com

This just reinforces my own opinion that this particular tale is pure bunk.

 

[mdog]

This is the problem when you start putting people on pedestals they become a god and do no wrong and make no errors. But the harsh reality in life is far different. no ones perfect. And that's the problem imperfect stories where people hang off every claim words for word with out ever verifying.

I tend to think the Ajo treasure story is a wild goose chase. Centered on the central character John E Johnston? Sound familiar? Many treasure legends are based on the words of one man? And how truth is in the words of story teller? I think this Johnston liked spinning yarns personally. Perhaps he like the notoriety.

Hardrock Hammond and KVM believed in John E Johnston claims. But KVM and Hardrock Hammond never had the technology we had today verify such claims? I no doubt they both searched for it. But article does not really indicated they actually found any thing in 1957?

But its all too easy for a story becoming blown out proportions..

The fact remains No John E Johnston exists. But it is true I believe that the person behind John E Johnston was real but his name was actually John A Johnson. The records confirm that. In truth that slight error is pardonable in KVM retelling the story. I think KVM accepted things in good faith what he was told. And like me and everyone else we have memory slips in retelling a story even in good faith.

Yes there was John Alfred Johnson. He was Swedish by birth came to America with his Swedish parents in 1910 and became naturalised. In 1930 he was working in mines at AJO right at very time mining was put on hold. So that part of story I believe.

View attachment 2170845

Here is him listed as Diamond driller he was 39 at the time married to Eva Mae Johnson. He had one son called John Clarence Johnson born in 1926 at bulff Utah. John Alfred Johnson was the only swede with that name working at Ajo around the time of this alleged treasure discovery. It appears John Alfred Johnson worked away from his family where he worked at the AJO mine.

He was born 11th December 1890 Oskarshamn, Oskarshamns kommun, Kalmar län, Sweden His parents was His father was Jonas Nicklsson and his mother was Anna Sofia Peterdotter

He died age 93 on 4 Apr. 1984 aged 93 at Bluff, San Juan County, Utah, United States of America. his son Clarence died 1st of July 1998.

You can see John Alfred Johnson headstone below. View attachment 2170844
I suspect if Carl actually met this man? As a author he was not going to put a mans life at risk by giving his true address at risk. So I think Gilla bend was Ruse to protect Johnson's privacy?

There was Johnston's living at Gila bend in the right time period but no John E Johnston? Now with the other names given in the story Jack Brewer. And Roger Martin. There is no evidence these two men existed at all? Not in and census, Immigration records crossing border from England , Ireland or any of them later traveling to South America.

Karl could not have known that because he and hard rock Hammond could not have access to records we have today. Hell I researched and treasure hunting all over world pre internet days and I know how hard and expensive to get access to records to confirm this.

I done more then my share going down the rabbit holes and getting no closer where you started. While archival records are not without their issues. they much better to get closer to the truth than just hearsay.

I have respect for Karl as no one can say did not live the last years of his life doing what he clearly loved doing. But like with all treasure hunters ya cant hang off word for word being true. Other wise you will spend a life time going in circles down that proverbial rabbit hole.

Another thing with these treasure legends I love em all. but you cannot become emotional attached to them. You have to go where the facts take you.

As for it being a catch connected if it was real to begin with to the alleged Lue? At this point I time I suspect is fanciful wishful thinking.

Crow

That's some good research, Crow. Thank you for sharing the information.

I need to dive a little deeper into my research, if you can, I'd like to know what tools you use to find your information.

Mdog

 

[sdcfia]

. . . .
This just reinforces my own opinion that this particular tale is pure bunk.

Many of the lost treasure stories are total fabrications originally created for adventure publications, or, in the earlier days, newspaper articles. Same goes for the antics of the famous gunslingers, outlaws, lawmen, pathfinders, etc. of the Old West. They serve their purpose - building folklore while making money. They used to call them dime novels. Anyone truly motivated to dig up actual loot isn't paying attention to well-known treasure legends.

Some of these treasure stories are possibly based on distant historical events, but have become totally cuckoo due to the usual reasons, primarily some failure of human nature along the way (chicanery, guile, gullibility, et al). The LUE is a prime example. Miller/Gladson/von Mueller, the ringmaster who introduced the LUE legend, was a leading figure in the modern treasure writing genre, providing solid advice regarding methodology, equipment, etc. However, his LUE creation offers nothing but vague references and innuendo for a searcher to dream about.

That's OK, the LUE is just another escape vehicle for us to chew on and think about - just look at all the ink (pixels) it's generated on TNet. We love these tales, but we don't take them seriously. We can't take the LUE seriously because we don't even know what it is. At least Jacob Waltz died with a box of gold ore under his bed and a clear story on his lips. Even that hasn't seemed to help his true believers.

Did M/G/vM actually dig up treasure somewhere? Who knows? If he did, he was likely smart enough not to tell.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Okay some times Crow's old brain is like a fried turkeys.

You might of experienced this Yourself! When you remember story from a long time ago? And you cannot quite remember THE full details of the story? I might of already posted the details here many years ago. I Have been on here on the forum nearly 20 years.

I have hundreds of thousands of pages of documents from all over the globe. So much i forget where crap is? I will give you the part as my old fart of memory can remember.

There was a man living in mining area in the early 20th century as out hunting near a mining town. hunting deer and found a small cave in the rain and discovered a box full of bars. I think silver or copper?

I cannot remember the name? it was in a newspaper article. He recovered the bars which was supposed to have been pilfered from a mining operation? He sold the bars and bought a store in which he managed. I confirmed through census when I had his name. And I think I am not sure it could be related the Ajo mining district?

This may or may not be Johnson person connected to Ajo? If so? I did not know the later Hammond Miller connection in 1960's

As it being connected to the Lue I am not sure? Hell I am note sure the whole story of Lue was just ruse distracted would be treasure hunters away from karl's own pet projects?

Crow.

Crow - "KvonM" didn't have to distract anyone. If there was something he didn't want made public, or a project he didn't want the public to interfere with, he would have simply "hushed his mush." I don't know of any other treasure finder, professional or amateur, as willing to share critical information as he always was. Back in the day, the number one criticism of his books and articles was that he was giving away professional secrets far too cheaply. I've never met anyone more willing to help others - he did more and said less about it than anyone else I've met in over seven decades.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo