Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this picture?

[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

at a full run chaseing julia he could cover about 25 miles ...lol

 

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[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

i dont think waltz went there to save 3 cents on gas ...lol

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Roy:
A frugal man such as Waltz may have gone to Adams Mill or Florence for the best price or other reasons of a similar nature.Credit vs cash,or quality etc.Nowadays,folks drive miles to save 3 cents per gallon of gas so I wouldn't make his source of supply a principal clue as to the location of the LDM,IMHO.

Regards:SH.

Agreed, there could be other reasons as well, like personal safety, considering how the people of Phoenix were he may have had good reason not to want anyone there to know about his mine. However why would Weiser run to a place for aid that was farther away than a town that might be closer? Would a wounded man, choose to run to a settlement that is farther away than the nearest town, with hostile Indians chasing him and firing arrows? This alone suggests that the mine is in some way closer to Adams Mill and the Pima villages than Phoenix, or that the route there is easier which is arguable. Thank you for the thought-out reply.
Oroblanco

 

[NativeOne]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Roy:
A frugal man such as Waltz may have gone to Adams Mill or Florence for the best price or other reasons of a similar nature.Credit vs cash,or quality etc.Nowadays,folks drive miles to save 3 cents per gallon of gas so I wouldn't make his source of supply a principal clue as to the location of the LDM,IMHO.

Regards:SH.

Agreed, there could be other reasons as well, like personal safety, considering how the people of Phoenix were he may have had good reason not to want anyone there to know about his mine. However why would Weiser run to a place for aid that was farther away than a town that might be closer? Would a wounded man, choose to run to a settlement that is farther away than the nearest town, with hostile Indians chasing him and firing arrows? 'This alone suggests that the mine is in some way closer to Adams Mill and the Pima villages than Phoenix', or that the route there is easier which is arguable. Thank you for the thought-out reply.
Oroblanco

There are stories about the Black Legion, a group of militant Native Americans, who protect the sacred burial grounds on Peter’s Mesa. The Black Legion is supposedly well trained in traditional Apache culture, and their purpose is to prevent looting and robbing of their ancestor’s graves. These sacred burial areas are within the confines of the Superstition Wilderness.
Another interesting story to do with the area was the death of Walt Gassler. Walt died of a heart attack after leaving Charlebois Spring hiking toward Peter’s Mesa. He died along the trail. His body was discovered by Gene Baker and Don Shade on May 4, 1984. It is claimed he had some very rich gold specimens in his backpack. These specimens apparently disappeared when his backpack was reclaimed at Sheriff’s Office.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Those gold ore specimens are the key reason why I count Walt Gassler as the single case of someone actually finding the Lost Dutchman mine; a man claiming to be his "son" later met with Tom Kollenborn and showed him a piece of ore that he said came from his father's backpack, and Tom said it is identical with the known Dutchman ore. Tom K. is a qualified geologist, so that statement carries a bit of weight for me.
Oroblanco

 

[Javaone]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

So how far do you estimate Waltz would travel in two days time, leading mules? This question is for anyone who cares to give a guess, educated or not, or carefully calculated estimate, and thank you in advance.
Oroblanco

Keeping in mind there were no roads, any trails (if any) would be very rough. The terrain, mules, water, food, rest, and so on - 4.5-5 miles avg per day would be the max. Especially in the Supes.

Jerry

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Thank you Javaone - that would make it roughly 10-11 miles for a two day travel. Part of the country is not so bad for traveling though, especially once you are OUT of the Superstitions on the south side. (The country between the Gila river and the Superstitions)
Roy

 

[Javaone]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Thank you Javaone - that would make it roughly 10-11 miles for a two day travel. Part of the country is not so bad for traveling though, especially once you are OUT of the Superstitions on the south side. (The country between the Gila river and the Superstitions)
Roy

Thanks Roy, I was thinking more about the Supes, not the flat lands. Relatively speaking.

Jerry

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

I figured that, but we know that Adams Mill was located on the Gila river not far from where Adamsville is now so it is some distance from the Superstitions. Likewise, we know that Weiser made it to the Pima villages on the Gila river, which are downstream a few miles from Adams Mill but also some ways from the Superstitions. It may not amount to anything, but this whole part of the legend has bothered me for the idea of the mine being so close to Weavers Needle. It does not make sense (to me) to travel so far from Weavers Needle if the mine were close to it, when Phoenix would have been an easier and shorter trip, but there are other possible reasons too.
Roy

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Thank you Javaone - that would make it roughly 10-11 miles for a two day travel. Part of the country is not so bad for traveling though, especially once you are OUT of the Superstitions on the south side. (The country between the Gila river and the Superstitions)
Roy

Thanks Roy, I was thinking more about the Supes, not the flat lands. Relatively speaking.

Jerry

Jerry I would like to show a comparison example of what is being done so it might be a different amount depending who your talking about as far as mules Mr. Real De Tapoya I Mean Tayopa is the expert. Two Routes Offered

Participants entering the Bataan Memorial Death March may choose between two routes. The different routes are clearly marked with colors/signs directing marchers.

The GREEN route is the full 26.2 mile Bataan Memorial Death March. Awards will be given to the top two finishers in each route category. Those marching the 26.2 miles will be able to experience, in part, what the Soldiers endured during their long trek through the Philippines. Participants of this full march will follow signs clearly identifying the GREEN route.
•26.2 miles

•Desert trails and washes

•4,100-5,300 feet elevation

The 26.2 mile memorial march route starts on the White Sands main post, crosses dusty and hilly desert terrain, circles a small mountain and returns to the main post through sandy desert trails and washes. The elevation ranges from about 4,100 to 5,300 feet. Be sure to look at the course description page.

The BLUE route is approximately 15 miles in length. This shorter march is designed for participates who would like to memorialize Bataan but do not wish to march the full 26.2 mile route. There are NO awards given for this march. Participants of this shorter march will follow signs clearly identifying the BLUE route.
Our Mule Expert Quoted: "Seriously, the distance a loaded burro / mule can travel is exactly the same as the driver or handle'er can travel in the same period of time.."

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Javaone]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Roy:
A frugal man such as Waltz may have gone to Adams Mill or Florence for the best price or other reasons of a similar nature.Credit vs cash,or quality etc.Nowadays,folks drive miles to save 3 cents per gallon of gas so I wouldn't make his source of supply a principal clue as to the location of the LDM,IMHO.

Regards:SH.

I figured that, but we know that Adams Mill was located on the Gila river not far from where Adamsville is now so it is some distance from the Superstitions. Likewise, we know that Weiser made it to the Pima villages on the Gila river, which are downstream a few miles from Adams Mill but also some ways from the Superstitions. It may not amount to anything, but this whole part of the legend has bothered me for the idea of the mine being so close to Weavers Needle. It does not make sense (to me) to travel so far from Weavers Needle if the mine were close to it, when Phoenix would have been an easier and shorter trip, but there are other possible reasons too.
Roy

Roy and SH,

Roy, I like the direction of your thinking. I have been struggling with this for a while now as well. It seems a long way to go to save a couple of cents. Today that round trip would take 2-3 hours, back then it would be 2-3 days.

Now whether it’s today or back then, if you are wounded and fearing for your life, wouldn’t you head to the nearest place possible?

For over 100 years thousands of prospectors and “want to be’s” have been turning over every stone around the weavers needle area, and those stones have probably been turned over times 10.

I sometimes wonder if Waltz ever really intended to allow anyone to find his mine. Sure, there are clues he gave that were most likely true, but I feel he allowed everyone to assume the mine was in that general area; laughing all the while.

Jerry

 

[Old Dog]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Jerry,
I really believe you are right.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Roy:
A frugal man such as Waltz may have gone to Adams Mill or Florence for the best price or other reasons of a similar nature.Credit vs cash,or quality etc.Nowadays,folks drive miles to save 3 cents per gallon of gas so I wouldn't make his source of supply a principal clue as to the location of the LDM,IMHO.

Regards:SH.

I figured that, but we know that Adams Mill was located on the Gila river not far from where Adamsville is now so it is some distance from the Superstitions. Likewise, we know that Weiser made it to the Pima villages on the Gila river, which are downstream a few miles from Adams Mill but also some ways from the Superstitions. It may not amount to anything, but this whole part of the legend has bothered me for the idea of the mine being so close to Weavers Needle. It does not make sense (to me) to travel so far from Weavers Needle if the mine were close to it, when Phoenix would have been an easier and shorter trip, but there are other possible reasons too.
Roy

Roy and SH,

Roy, I like the direction of your thinking. I have been struggling with this for a while now as well. It seems a long way to go to save a couple of cents. Today that round trip would take 2-3 hours, back then it would be 2-3 days.

Now whether it’s today or back then, if you are wounded and fearing for your life, wouldn’t you head to the nearest place possible?

For over 100 years thousands of prospectors and “want to be’s” have been turning over every stone around the weavers needle area, and those stones have probably been turned over times 10.

I sometimes wonder if Waltz ever really intended to allow anyone to find his mine. Sure, there are clues he gave that were most likely true, but I feel he allowed everyone to assume the mine was in that general area; laughing all the while.

Jerry

Hola amigo,
You have hit on two key points that argue against the LDM being anywhere near Weavers Needle. A wounded man would most logically head for the closest assistance. The fact that Waltz went to Adams Mill for flour when they were in need of it, and that Weiser ran much the same direction and ended up not so far away from Adams Mill, plus the fact that thousands upon thousands of people have gone over the Weavers Needle region practically with a fine-tooth comb, certainly points toward the mine being located elsewhere. One more key item that is ignored by too many Dutch-hunters too - that Waltz's homestead was practically IN Phoenix, from 1868 on. This may appear insignificant, and if Waltz had discovered the mine prior to staking his homestead, it would point toward the western Superstitions by default. However even though we do not know the exact date when Waltz made his discovery, most probably it was after 1868. That would mean that Waltz had his homestead when he was at the mine with Weiser; when they had the incident with the mule eating the flour, he could have just as easily gone HOME to Phoenix if they were in the western end of the Superstitions, but instead he went to Adams Mill. To me, that is highly significant.

Weiser may well be the key player of the Lost Dutchman legend. This is also very important for those who have been claiming to have found the Lost Dutchman mine - if your site is of such a character that it requires rock-climbing gear to get into it, do you really believe that a wounded man would be able to escape attacking Indians from such a spot? Isn't it more likely that the actual mine site is in truth, accessible to horses and mules? Remember, Weiser fled ON HORSEBACK for the first few miles; he said nothing about having to climb down a cliff to catch a horse and then get on it to escape, so it may be logical to assume that the horse was tethered or staked quite close to the mine; close enough that the moment Weiser was hit by an arrow, or very shortly afterwards, he was able to simply grab the horse and take off for help.

Of course for those who dismiss Dr Walker's story of Weiser, and instead believe in Waltz murdering his 'nephew' in cold blood for some incomprehensible motive, then Adams Mill and the Pima village are not important at all. The problems with that version are several - one being we can't find anyone to fit that 'nephew', there is no clear motive to be killing him, and the source of the story is questionable. Even the picture of Waltz being such a cold-blooded murderer of a blood relative does not match with his known behavior to his friends in Phoenix, however no one who knew him seemed to think he was incapable of killing either. However, consider this - when (according to Dick Holmes) Waltz caught Holmes tracking and trailing him back to the mine, he got him in his sights and could have killed him by simply pulling the trigger and very likely no one would have ever known it, but he chose to simply let that scare of death frighten away Holmes rather than kill him. Does that sound like a cold blooded murderer, or just what an experienced prospector and gold miner would do to protect his interests?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Loke]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Roy, Javaone et al,
Also, let us not forget where Julia and Reinhart _started_ their look for the cache/mine. They may not have listened sufficiently to the finer details, but you would think that at least they would get the entry-point right ... which would be from the south-western part. i haven't check out the distance from the Hieroglyph canyon to Phoenix/Adams Mill, but from memory (ha, ha), I would say its six or half-a-dozen.

Per

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Per,

Good to see another normal person posting. I believe we are a dying breed over here.

Your point is a good one, but Julia and Rhiney actually made their first attempt to enter the mountains at Hog Canyon.....I believe.

When Brownie Holmes started his "systematic search......by starting out at Superstition Mountain, the main mountain of the range, and gradually working north and east, thoroughly examining every canyon as I went." My guess is that Dick Holmes had followed Julia and Rhiney on their trips to the range and knew where they were trying to go.

The main mountain seems the likely area that Julia and Rhiney tried to reach with their wagon. Waltz had told them they would be going over the mountain to get to his mine. They were looking for a specific view, IMHO, and it was not something they told Bark or Ely. Either those two left that information out of their writings, or someone took it out. They would see that view from the ridge line of the main mountain.

Perhaps this is what they were told to look for:

Once they missed the correct location to enter the mountains and moved north to First Water, they could never find the correct view that would point out the location of Waltz's mine.

Anyway.......that makes for a fine story.

Don't mean to interrupt the flow here. Please continue.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Joe, I know you've mentioned more than once that Julia and Rhiney made their first search through Hog Canyon. I know you put alot of stock in Sims Ely, so why don't you believe when Sims says that Helena (Julia) sold her business and with Rhiney took a wagon and team to First Water on the northerly side of the Superstition Wall and walked into the mountains from that direction?

 

[Loke]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Joe,
Oh shucks - I must've had a brainfart (easy when you get to my tender age)! Indeed I meant Hog canyon - I've no idea as to why I wrote Hieroglyph canyon.

Per

/edit/
And of course, I'm not going to ask _where_ and _how_ you got that li'l scetch of Jacob's, but where is it from?? I've never,ever seen that one referred to before .. ;-)

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Per,


Your point is a good one, but Julia and Rhiney actually made their first attempt to enter the mountains at Hog Canyon.....I believe.

When Brownie Holmes started his "systematic search......by starting out at Superstition Mountain, the main mountain of the range, and gradually working north and east, thoroughly examining every canyon as I went." My guess is that Dick Holmes had followed Julia and Rhiney on their trips to the range and knew where they were trying to go.

The main mountain seems the likely area that Julia and Rhiney tried to reach with their wagon. Waltz had told them they would be going over the mountain to get to his mine. They were looking for a specific view, IMHO, and it was not something they told Bark or Ely. Either those two left that information out of their writings, or someone took it out. They would see that view from the ridge line of the main mountain.

Perhaps this is what they were told to look for:

Once they missed the correct location to enter the mountains and moved north to First Water, they could never find the correct view that would point out the location of Waltz's mine.

Anyway.......that makes for a fine story.

Don't mean to interrupt the flow here. Please continue.

Take care,

Joe


I really love the map Thankyou Cactus

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Santa Fe NM wrote

Ditto That: "Good to see another normal person posting. I believe we are a dying breed over here."

I really love the map Thankyou Cactus

I see you have now overlain your Google Earth images with that hand-drawn map; do you think that is a good alignment with the place you have put it? I don't see it matching well at all this time, the main mountain line is cutting across a ridge for example.

If you can answer my next question well, it will go quite some ways to support your claim that you have found the LDM by using Google Earth, here is the question.

Exactly how do you tell the difference between a man-made hand-dug mineshaft, or a hand-dug water well, or a natural sinkhole, on Google Earth John?

I am asking this because I have seen people here on T-net post photos of hand dug water wells, saying it is a mine shaft. I would like to hear exactly how you tell the differences, on satellite photos, when people have walked up to water wells and mistook them for mineshafts, and vice-versa. I would think that it would be next to impossible to determine from satellite photos alone. Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

do you think that is a good alignment No and its not a good drawing either but it gives a rough idea. you know my grandfather was always doodleing on napkins at restaurants. you should have seen.