Lost Adams Diggings

[cactusjumper]

Jose,

Nino's book is a good....juvenile read. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of Apache life, in the old days, will realize it's a historical novel.
That does not, however, mean there is no factual truth in the book. The trouble comes when trying to separate truth from fiction.

Nino mentions Tayopa five times in his book. He gives enough information to locate the general area of the mine, assuming he has some actual idea where it is to begin with. I have serious doubts.

The following map shows Tayopa as location #38. #36 is Las Chipas and #35 is El Tigre. Just above that, #34 is Pa-Gotzin-Kay Rancheria. Sno-Ta-Hae is a short walk from there.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[cactusjumper]

Jose,

Here is the first half of Nino's map:

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good Morning Joe: Gracias, if # 38 is supposedly Tayopa, he is probably referring to the Guaynopa / Guaynopita area. This is correct, since that "is" the Tayopa #1 zone. But with that map, forget it, one very, very, rough, huge country hehehe.

This area is S/W of Madera, Chih. now accessable by a pickup, or lumber truck. From Madera it is only mule or foot travel, although they are opening up mineral properties in that area.

On the northern tributaries of the Yaqui, one that does come close, is the Rio Bonito, also a country of vertical dimensions.

The other river drainages are mostly, basically correct, but some are not, notably The Barranca de Cobre . # 39.


At least he does give a starting point.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Jose,

I suppose if you have a dog named Toto, and live in Kansas, that could also be considered a starting point.....of sorts.

You might suspect that Greenville Goodwin would have found such a large, developed Rancheria like Pa-Gotzin-Kay. Anyone know what that means in Apache? Goodwin spent a good deal of time tracking down what was left of the "Bronco Apache" in Mexico. You can read his account of what he found in a book that was written by his son, using his father's field notes.

A few lesser know facts about Nino Cochise:

When he first started telling his story about being the grandson of Cochise, he claimed that his father was "Nachite", and unknown son of Cochise who only had two sons. He later changed his story to make the well known Taza his father. It is also well known that Taza was never married and had no children.

Nino had pale skin, brown hair and grey eyes. Hardly a description for a purebred Apache.

Nino is a Spanish word for "young boy". There is no such word in the Apache language, that I know of. Ciye is a Lakota Sioux word for "my brother" when spoken by a man. I have seen it referred to as an Apache word meaning, "my son", but have had a hard time finding it in any of my sources.

The gold mine has some background in Apache history. Such a mine is said to have been worked by Cochise's son and was something that Tom Jeffords was aware of. I believe that mine was in New Mexico. Need to look up that story again.

Anyone who believes "The First 100 Years Of Nino Cochise" is anything but historical fiction, knows nothing about the Apache culture. The book was written by a man who died in his mid-eighties.....at the latest. Despite knowing where Sno-Tah-Hey or Sno-Tah-Hay is, Nino had nothing when he died. This after writing that he learned the value of gold early on and appreciated the things it could buy.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

OHIO JOE: Actually it would be far closer, say perhpas 30 50 miles. a little intellgent research can close that down considerably.

The locations of both Guaynopa / Guaynopita are closely known. A main tail decends from Madera to the barranca where they are located - From there on you are on your own, lots of ruins and evidence of past mining.

The cave that I referred to before, lies some 60 - 80 kilometers further south, so it probably is not
SNO-TA- HAY.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Connecticut Sam]

Many great stories. I live in Bridgeport Connecticut and I do not like big snakes.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening Puff daddy. Pick at el JOE, let's get this rolling again.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Tag post please ignore.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ollie ollie olson free. oro

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

Funny how life goes now and then. There's a book I tried hard to find years back and couldn't, and finally forgot about it. Today, I was killing time waiting for my SO to complete her scanning at a yard sale when I looked down at a cluttered table and there it sat, Eight Golden Orgies, Adams' Bloody Canyon of Gold, by Sarah Stuart (Zola Crosby). 25 cents. A new analysis to think about and compare. I believe the book also contains some AZ stuff, including the Lost Dutchman.

 

[Oroblanco]

Funny how life goes now and then. There's a book I tried hard to find years back and couldn't, and finally forgot about it. Today, I was killing time waiting for my SO to complete her scanning at a yard sale when I looked down at a cluttered table and there it sat, Eight Golden Orgies, Adams' Bloody Canyon of Gold, by Sarah Stuart (Zola Crosby). 25 cents. A new analysis to think about and compare. I believe the book also contains some AZ stuff, including the Lost Dutchman.

Well, *# &^X#@!!! <expletive deleted> I never find deals like that! I have never even heard of that book title before, now will have to keep an eye open for it. I am jealous amigo Springfield! I do have to ask a favor, after all that cussing and admitting to jealousy etc, I would appreciate your opinions on what you read, if you would not mind sharing them? Thank you in advance, and as always there is absolutely no rush on my account.

Side thingie amigo Don Jose, been working on talking the boss into spending some time to go check out a particular canyon, not returning to the volcanic and gold-barren zig-zags we have wasted time on before but one further sorth. I will send you some details by EM later this evening if I can remember to do it.
Roy

 

[Springfield]

.....I do have to ask a favor, after all that cussing and admitting to jealousy etc, I would appreciate your opinions on what you read, if you would not mind sharing them?.....

Well, it's an interesting read with some new angles - well worth the investment.

To begin with, Stuart the writer (Zola Crosby) was a SE Arizona cowgirl who for 60 years researched and sought a number of Arizona lost mines. Her historical framework (verifiable history) is pretty solid - the place names, dates, known historical characters, etc. seems accurate. She apparently spent a lot of time and energy doing her homework before writing the 135 page, vanity press book (first 87 pages on the LAD). The book needs editing for spelling and grammar, but it's fairly well written.

She also provides a fair amount of anecdotal testimony that isn't so easy, or even possible, to verify. Ordinarily, this doesn't bother me because I know first hand the value that anecdotal evidence can provide. On the downside, she provides no sources for many of her facts, so it's tough to separate fact from wishful thinking. There are a number of hand-drawn maps and a few hard to see photos to accompany the story. Her solution of the LAD came to her in an epiphany one day as she was riding through Texas Canyon by car from Benson to Willcox, AZ.

Stuart's narrative of the LAD reads a bit like an historical novel, with plenty of dialog between the characters, rash assumptions to support theories ('it must have been a cloudy day'), full names of anonymous participants, etc. This sort of thing bothers me greatly - obviously made up material used to flesh out the story and support the conclusions. Most of the well-known LAD versions use the same technique, a big, big weakness in my opinion. In fact, the lesser-known anecdotal versions, which are more straightforward in many cases, gain credibility for this reason.

OK, cut to the chase, per Stuart. In 1864, Adams was freighting mining equipment from played out California mines to the Heintzelman silver mine in the Cerro Colorado Mountains west of Tubac, AZ, which is located on the Santa Cruz River 30 miles or so south of Tucson. Indians ran off his horses and burned his wagons per the well-known versions. Adams collected the horses and went back down river to the San Xavier Mission where Gotcho and the miners were. They convinced him to put up his twelve horses in exchange for leadership on the expedition to follow Gotcho to the gold.

They start out south on the Santa Cruz to the south end of the Santa Rita Mountains, then head northeasterly, in a very circuitous route (to avoid the Apaches) for six days. The Twin Peaks (where the gold was to be found) were first visible to the northeast from the pass over the Santa Rita range. These peaks turn out to be the well-known Dos Cabezas (Two Heads), east of Willcox. They camped on the sixth day near the top of Dragoon Wash, where they found the placer gold, were warned by Nana not to go higher in the canyon, etc., as is familiar in other versions of the LAD story.

The supply trip to the fort, the massacre, the cabin, the rich lode claim higher in the canyon, etc., are familiar details. The supply fort was Camp Grant on the San Pedro River, 75 miles to the north. The rich lode deposit later became the Old Terrible Mine, and was later renamed the Golden Rule Mine, located a few miles east of Dragoon, AZ. Gotcho's original target at the base of the Dos Cabezas, was never exploited by the miners who stayed and were killed in Dragoon Wash. Adams' escape, later searches, etc., is similar to other versions.

Stuart also offered interesting opinions on other Arizona lost mine stories. Briefly: the Peralta Mines were not in the Superstitions, but were at Rich Hill (Mesa Colorado del Oro). Jacob Waltz obtained a map to the diggings from one of the Peraltas associates in Mexico, a drinking buddy of his named Ludi, whom he murdered for the map. However, Waltz then misread the map. He mistook current Weavers Needle for the map's correct landmark, Picacho Soledad en Merito, located in the desert near the Vulture Mine - not in the Superstition Mountains. Waltz searched unsuccessfully from that point on in the Superstitions. This info came from Bud Dozier, a pal of the Stuart (Crosby, presumably) family and an aquaintance of Waltz. Dozier had allegedly seen the Peralta map and drew it out for the elder Stuart (Crosby) back in the day. Dozier was also associated with the Vulture Mine and claimed that the gold ore Waltz had in his possession was high-graded from the Vulture. Waltz was fired for the offense and later was again caught obtaining additional high-grade from miners there who he struck deals with. Waltz intimidated those who suspected him and was not called on the offense. Stuart claims the Lost Dutchman Mine is a fake.

Other Arizona lost mines, per Stuart: Pegleg Smith, 1860's - found (Harquahala Mine 1888); Lost Soldier, 1860's - found (King of Arizona Mine 1899); Doctor Thorne, 1860's - found (Gowan Mine 1879); Tenderfoot Mine, 1890's - found (Baker Mine, 1907); Nig-ger Ben, 1866 - never found.

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you Springfield for taking the time to share and for the synopsys - sounds like it is worth adding to a collection for sure. That is an interesting twist on the LAD; not sure I can accept Camp Grant as the fort referred to by Gotchear, seems like it would be too far but that is a personal opinion.

I will try to pop in later this evening, will have to dig out the county map of Cochise co, I am fairly familiar with the area referred to as it was one of the few places we could go do some poking around when we were living in the Sulphur hills and still manage to get home in a day so as not to miss work. Not sure I understand why she identified the Old Terrible, if memory serves the ore was not readily observable on the surface at all when it was discovered but I could be wrong.

Thanks again Springfield, I appreciate your effort and your views.
Roy

 

[Springfield]

Thank you Springfield for taking the time to share and for the synopsys - sounds like it is worth adding to a collection for sure. That is an interesting twist on the LAD; not sure I can accept Camp Grant as the fort referred to by Gotchear, seems like it would be too far but that is a personal opinion.

I will try to pop in later this evening, will have to dig out the county map of Cochise co, I am fairly familiar with the area referred to as it was one of the few places we could go do some poking around when we were living in the Sulphur hills and still manage to get home in a day so as not to miss work. Not sure I understand why she identified the Old Terrible, if memory serves the ore was not readily observable on the surface at all when it was discovered but I could be wrong.

Thanks again Springfield, I appreciate your effort and your views.
Roy

You're welcome. I looked up the mine (http://www.mindat.org/loc-32719.html) - they worked a sulfide vein that carried mostly base metals it seems, with some gold. As the author's premise is that the LAD placer and lode were both later relocated and worked out, the Old Terrible's records don't seem to indicate it was rich enough to fit the bill. In fairness, the early reports might possibly show different, if they could be located. Also, the author made no further mention of the placer deposit in upper Dragoon Wash being later relocated and exploited, or by whom. No mention of the cabin cache being recovered. No mention of the original rich placer destination near Dos Cabezas being located either, for that matter. I personally don't buy her theories, but they are a different twist.

Actually, Camp Grant is in my 'Top 2' possibilities for the Adams supply camp, if the Adams event actually happened as described. Fort West, NM, on the Gila River at Bear Creek, is my other working model possibility - close enough to the Pinos Altos Range, or Mogollons, or the Rio San Francisco watershed. This legend has so many discrepancies associated with it that it is hard to latch on to any details. It's like pushing on a balloon - you work on one area and another pops out somewhere else. One thing I would bet on however - if there is a LAD to match the legend, I can't place it in Mexico.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening Springfield, you posted -->if there is a LAD to match the legend, I can't place it in Mexico.
*********
Agreed, neither can I, but then since it hasn't been located where it supposedly was?

By throwing a broken, wild wrench into the pot, it may cause someone to back off on a pre-established, incorrect plan and
possibly work it out.

Blindly following where many others have already gone, is probably not very productive.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose wrote

Blindly following where many others have already gone, is probably not very productive.

Humph! And here I was trusting enough for you to lead me to see Tayopa even with a blindfold on! Now you tell me this?! Sheesh maybe you were going to lead me to the same spot where the unfortunate Jesuit put gravity to the test!
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

Evening Springfield, you posted -->if there is a LAD to match the legend, I can't place it in Mexico.
*********
Agreed, neither can I, but then since it hasn't been located where it supposedly was? .....

Quien sabe? There was likely some sort of real event that spawned the LAD legends. Based on the results so far, we can't say for certain exactly what it was.

It may have been a fabulous lost mine event similar to the well-known but confused LAD stories. It may have been a cover story blaming the Indians for the ambush and murder of gold-laden California prospectors. It may have been a cover story to divert attention to some sort of Mormon chicanery. It may have been a coded cover story describing Southern secret service gold caching of Confederate gold. Since we don't even know who Adams was, it's hard to embrace anything he allegedly said.

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield wrote

Actually, Camp Grant is in my 'Top 2' possibilities for the Adams supply camp, if the Adams event actually happened as described. Fort West, NM, on the Gila River at Bear Creek, is my other working model possibility - close enough to the Pinos Altos Range, or Mogollons, or the Rio San Francisco watershed. This legend has so many discrepancies associated with it that it is hard to latch on to any details. It's like pushing on a balloon - you work on one area and another pops out somewhere else. One thing I would bet on however - if there is a LAD to match the legend, I can't place it in Mexico.

I didn't mean that I would rule out Camp Grant either - just that it seems too far from Dragoon Wash and the Old Terrible, at 75 miles that seems to be more than four days travel by wagon and team in my opinion. I am guessing at this figure but think that less than 50 miles is more like what distance four days travel would be, by wagon, judging by records from the pioneer days. I agree that Camp Grant is a very possible candidate to be the fort of the story.

You are painfully correct too about the many discrepancies - it is not even possible to pin down the exact date of the Adams story. Maybe that is a part of the attraction (speaking only for myself) as I am drawn to mysteries in general. Side thingie but I once thought you could narrow down the search to a very small area just by using maps and the landmarks of the story, using a compass set to match the distances etc and this did not work. The area ended up being huge and we can't be certain which fort was the one of the story so that landmark is a question mark. I am convinced that there is something remarkable at the root of this story, and that some day, someone will turn it up. I just hope that we get to hear about it, assuming it hasn't happened already.

One avenue that I also thought would be a sound approach was to start where Adams is known to have started, but even this is not helpful for there are a dozen different places where he supposedly set out from, no directions given for where he headed from them, and Adams himself was extremely unreliable about his own information. I believe there was a key landmark that he was looking for but never saw again, and never revealed to anyone what that key landmark was.

Sorry for the long-winded reply, may spend a couple of weeks this fall or early spring to go look for the LAD and discussing it only gets my 'urge' to go, worse. May have to dig out my copy of McKenna's Gold again just to drive back that urge. In some ways, this legend is worse than the Lost Dutchman, for you can find landmarks to fit the story, the twin peaks, the zig-zag canyon and so on but no gold. If only there was some other key landmark that would help pinpoint the place to hunt.
Oroblanco

 

[gpg]

Hi,
New here, didn't want to start a new topic when the title of this one says it clearly enough.
Getting back into looking at LAD after a couple years away. Only made one day trip out of Clifton, AZ actually looking, and was presently surprised I ended up at Purcells first "places I haven't looked" before I read his book. Went to the Slaughter Mesa area. Didn't find squat, but it was a quick trip. Then, read Purcell's book and everything else I could find.
Blundered into a related tidbit recently and it got me going again.
It's to do with the early Adams bit, from '48. Looked up Emory's map and it is not very accurate at the point of the SF, San Carlos, and Rio Azul meeting with the Gila, showing that he didn't really travel up the tributaries. As shown, the Rio Prieta would be the SF(now), Rio Bonita could be the Blue(now,unlikely based on distance). Rio Azul would be Eagle Creek(now). and the San Carlos is shown far too close to all the others but could be Bonita Creek(now)
The interesting tidbit I found was a map from 1870 that shows Eagle Creek as Rio Prieta and the SF as the SF.
Both the SF and Eagle Creek have gold in them near the Gila. Don't think there should be any confusion with Emory's report reporting on what is NOW the Black river farther north in AZ. He meant either the SF or Eagle Creek near the Gila. They meet the Gila within a few miles of each other. Gotta go, more later.

 

[gpg]

to add:
The most interesting aspect of this story is the Nana connection. Really hard to get info on Apache's before the cavalry started killing them. But Nana was associated with a northern group, above the warm springs group, which ties into the east of Springerville area. Amazing guy, fought with all the great war leaders from Mangus to Geronimo and lead a hollywood story raid in his 70's. Also if the 1864 date is correct it's a year after Mangus' torture and death under dishonorable conditions from the whites. All apache's would have been ready to kill someone. Makes it easy to believe the massacre. One area I will research more, the clan areas.