Looking for a story

[Idahodutch]

IMHO, that circle of stones still be on the proper saddle. I post two modified crops of real bigger pictures which were taken in two different times of the day. The zoom is different also but the circle of rocks can be distinguished in the center, marked with yellow circle.

View attachment 1911562 View attachment 1911563 View attachment 1911564

Markmar,
Not trying to pick, but that circle just so happens to be one of many shapes outlined in the very close proximity.... besides circles, there are squares, triangles,... maybe a dozen or so.... all about same size font.

And then have to ask, can four peaks be seen at all from there, let alone only one peak?
We might need a little more convincing, especially how homes manuscript gets you there to that saddle you show.

 

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[markmar]

Markmar,
Not trying to pick, but that circle just so happens to be one of many shapes outlined in the very close proximity.... besides circles, there are squares, triangles,... maybe a dozen or so.... all about same size font.

And then have to ask, can four peaks be seen at all from there, let alone only one peak?
We might need a little more convincing, especially how homes manuscript gets you there to that saddle you show.

Was only my opinion and I didn't try to convince anyone. Four peaks never could be seen as one peak from anywhere. Geometry doesn't allow this. I can say only how they are visible from there.

 

[Idahodutch]

You said the stone circle was on correct saddle ......
But now it’s your opinion.

Those hills just South of Black Top Mesa are completely obstructed from seeing Four Peaks, by Black Top Mesa.
Show a GE snip of Four Peaks from standing on the high point of the low ridge, behind the LDM.

And you have been trying to convince all of us that you have this all figured out.
I think you are an excellent searcher, and researcher. But I also think you are letting things get in your way to seeing anything contrary to what you have put together.
It is like you have started to grasp at straws, with the circle of stones. (This isn’t like you, to post something without really examining everything).

I would be very interested in the coordinates that you came up with for the caches from the Waltz Map.
Pm if you are comfortable, and I would keep confidential if you desire.
If I have wrong ravine, I won’t find anything.

 

[Idahodutch]

Was only my opinion and I didn't try to convince anyone. Four peaks never could be seen as one peak from anywhere. Geometry doesn't allow this. I can say only how they are visible from there.

Here is an example of not letting yourself see something that is contrary to what you already have put together.
Waltz said to go to a specific spot to look to the North and view Four Peaks.
Views can have obstructions that are specific, or even unique, to a very specific location.

Geometry doesn’t figure in .... just what can be seen from a certain spot. We are told it is to be just one peak.
CHECK

The spot exists ... And if you move from that spot ..... the view no longer exists, because as you move, so do the obstructions, and what can be seen, or not.... like more peaks

 

[markmar]

Here is an example of not letting yourself see something that is contrary to what you already have put together.
Waltz said to go to a specific spot to look to the North and view Four Peaks.
Views can have obstructions that are specific, or even unique, to a very specific location.

Geometry doesn’t figure in .... just what can be seen from a certain spot. We are told it is to be just one peak.
CHECK

The spot exists ... And if you move from that spot ..... the view no longer exists, because as you move, so do the obstructions, and what can be seen, or not.... like more peaks

A part of Holmes directions: " when you get to the highest point of the ridge you can look north and the four peaks are lined up to look like one peak. In the other direction you will see a high needle. "

What make me wonder, is why all the people put so much interest to make the Four ( 4 ) Peaks to look like one peak and nobody gave any attention to the other clue, about the high needle.
If that high needle would be Weavers Needle, then we know WN is not a single peak, but has three peaks, and in relation with the angle, someone can see even three or a single peak. So, the question is, was that high peak WN which was seen as a single peak or a different peak than WN?

 

[Idahodutch]

A part of Holmes directions: " when you get to the highest point of the ridge you can look north and the four peaks are lined up to look like one peak. In the other direction you will see a high needle. "

What make me wonder, is why all the people put so much interest to make the Four ( 4 ) Peaks to look like one peak and nobody gave any attention to the other clue, about the high needle.
If that high needle would be Weavers Needle, then we know WN is not a single peak, but has three peaks, and in relation with the angle, someone can see even three or a single peak. So, the question is, was that high peak WN which was seen as a single peak or a different peak than WN?

Markmar,
I can’t speak for others, but for the very reason that the Four Peaks are not in a straight line, but yet he uses the wording “lined up”.
When you see it, you will understand the meaning. Lined up within the view window .... just right, where you only see one peak. It is a specific spot that Holmes could get absolute confirmation, that he was at the correct spot.
Lots of high peaks, but the Four Peaks is very unique, especially when the other descriptions of the site are taken into account. It is a unique set up. The whole layout, water tanks below, .... too much to dismiss imho.
I made a trip and part of that trip was to see if what Waltz said was there, was actually there. I didn’t expect to have the view be a window, that obscures what is not in the window. Only one peak fits in that window, at that point of the low ridge, that we are told to go to, to look.

And if you draw a line from Four Peaks through that viewing point and on, it does not go to weavers needle.
It is much closer to Palomino than to WN.

Apparently the German version of that same clue, has slightly different wording/translation.
The peak in the other direction translates to peak with a hole through it.
We have debated on it before, but the issue is not the translation, it is that you have already dismissed the Holmes narrative, because geology and geometry tell you is is a bogus clue.

That my friend is the issue here. Imho

 

[markmar]

Markmar,
I can’t speak for others, but for the very reason that the Four Peaks are not in a straight line, but yet he uses the wording “lined up”.
When you see it, you will understand the meaning. Lined up within the view window .... just right, where you only see one peak. It is a specific spot that Holmes could get absolute confirmation, that he was at the correct spot.
Lots of high peaks, but the Four Peaks is very unique, especially when the other descriptions of the site are taken into account. It is a unique set up. The whole layout, water tanks below, .... too much to dismiss imho.
I made a trip and part of that trip was to see if what Waltz said was there, was actually there. I didn’t expect to have the view be a window, that obscures what is not in the window. Only one peak fits in that window, at that point of the low ridge, that we are told to go to, to look.

And if you draw a line from Four Peaks through that viewing point and on, it does not go to weavers needle.
It is much closer to Palomino than to WN.

Apparently the German version of that same clue, has slightly different wording/translation.
The peak in the other direction translates to peak with a hole through it.
We have debated on it before, but the issue is not the translation, it is that you have already dismissed the Holmes narrative, because geology and geometry tell you is is a bogus clue.

That my friend is the issue here. Imho

The real issue is that none of the directions given by Waltz are 100% correct and could lead someone to the LDM. The result that nobody was able to find the LDM, even the first who have listen the clues, rises few questions and a better review on the clues and directions. The best way to find out what is accurate and what isn't , is only if somneone knows where the LDM is located.
Another way to find the LDM location , is to read and another stories and maps which prompt to a rich gold deposit in the Superstitions. Like an ancient European proverb says " All the roads lead to Rome ", we must take all the info about a specific region in regards to be able to find what we are looking for.
The subject of this thread was the Indian rock circle which Waltz mentioned to be in a saddle before the low ridge. IMHO this circle is similar to that on the Black Cross Mesa. There is a close relation between these circles, because their location and purpose.

 

[Idahodutch]

The real issue if that none of the directions given by Waltz are 100% correct and could lead someone to the LDM. The result that nobody was able to find the LDM, even the first who have listen the clues, rises few questions and a better review on the clues and directions. The best way to find out what is accurate and what isn't , is only if somneone knows where the LDM is located.
Another way to find the LDM location , is to read and another stories and maps which prompt to a rich gold deposit in the Superstitions. Like an ancient European proverb says " All the roads lead to Rome ", we must take all the info about a specific region in regards to be able to find what we are looking for.
The subject of this thread was the Indian rock circle which Waltz mentioned to be in a saddle before the low ridge. IMHO this circle is similar to that on the Black Cross Mesa. There is a close relation between these circles, because their location and purpose.

Markmar,
The best way to find out what is accurate, and what isn’t..... is not as you say “Only if someone knows where LDM is located” ...... but to test the clues. Like scientific approach. Pass or fail.

You can remain in denial, or you can test the clues .... the view of Four Peaks is just like the clue.
Believe it or not.
Or you could go test it .... like I did.

 

[Idahodutch]

Markmar,
Many here enjoy reading and hearing about all the other things and happenings that went on in those mountains.
I am glad that your interests make it a mutual experience.
And you are correct, that the more information the better, in solving some puzzles.
But before tossing out something ..... do ALL the tests. Otherwise it stays a MAYBE.
Not dismissal.
That dismissal of that clue, has left you vulnerable to runaway speculation, not that I mind speculation, it is often very interesting. You have shared some very cool information
Some of it is helpful, in sorting things out, and glad you shared.

My intent is to find LDM, using the clues, testIng them out has worked good. I’ve tried to stay on track .... just haven’t had the engine turned on as much as I would like

 

[markmar]

Markmar,
The best way to find out what is accurate, and what isn’t..... is not as you say “Only if someone knows where LDM is located” ...... but to test the clues. Like scientific approach. Pass or fail.

You can remain in denial, or you can test the clues .... the view of Four Peaks is just like the clue.
Believe it or not.
Or you could go test it .... like I did.

You can test them clues like did many hundred people before you. But is not a matter of time, hiking skills or supernatural powers. Is a matter of map decrypting skills which can open wide any window to every hidden mine or treasure. To search between maps and clues/stories from different sources and to distinguish their relation, is the best formula in finding lost mines and treasures.
Reversed engineering is the best way to sort out the correct clues.

 

[Al D]

May I chime in and ask a question?
did waltz use any clues when he found the mine the very first time?.......or, did he find the mine just by looking as would any prospector?
TYIA

 

[dredgernaut]

i think he was a prospector... following places traces towards the source... maybe got close to the source... maybe heard hard rock mining above his placers... maybe went to see the noise... maybe killed some people and took over their mine.... i think thats the story... but no clues... he worked for it... then took it...

 

[Idahodutch]

Alan,
Not like we have today. We have too many clues and stories of many mines getting morphed around.

Much debate as to how Waltz came to be in possession.
But it doesn’t sound like he prospected virgin ground for the LDM ... you know first guy on the scene tracking the gold.

The general story, is was prospector looking for gold, and found gold, more than once.
Clue for the day was if someone found gold

There were rumors of gold in them hills. I don’t know which story to go with.... the Peraltas had tracked gold from salt river on into the superstitions. It was Mexico at that time.
Then the massacre of the mining party by the Apache. The story then was either Waltz worked a trade for it from Peralta, and came up; or he was in there and came across a couple remnants of the massacre survivors, or their relatives and killed them for the mine.

I don’t know how it went down.
Not much help

 

[Al D]

i think he was a prospector... following places traces towards the source... maybe got close to the source... maybe heard hard rock mining above his placers... maybe went to see the noise... maybe killed some people and took over their mine.... i think thats the story... but no clues... he worked for it... then took it...

That is also my opinion as to how the mine was found, so that would imply that the mine should be locatable by regular search methods.
this is important because it would have to place the mine in a location where gold would be expected to be, or....where a mine was able to be opened.
I recall the story of the funnel pit as reported by Glen Magill, and think that particular mine could not have been foound by regular methods.
very interesting conversation and quite informative.

 

[Idahodutch]

I do believe about Peralta family having the LDM and the massacre, just don’t know particulars after that.
But I do believe the the LDM then was in possession of Waltz.

 

[dredgernaut]

real methods of prospecting towards the source are key... whether you are dry panning or have water and can pan normal, you follow the color... dont need to keep the little colors, set them free, you are not out there to mine.. you are only following the bread crumbs back to the loaf...
and a small pan also doubles as a bowl to eat from... thats why i have it along....

 

[Idahodutch]

real methods of prospecting towards the source are key... whether you are dry panning or have water and can pan normal, you follow the color... dont need to keep the little colors, set them free, you are not out there to mine.. you are only following the bread crumbs back to the loaf...

Spot on

 

[Idahodutch]

The way I heard the story was Peralta followed the gold to all around Black Top Mesa, and had like 8 gold mines.
Then later, found the mother load. The LDM

 

[dredgernaut]

so hard to say... there are prospects and partial digs all over out there.. some old , some not as old,, i know of a few that have never been openly discussed or mapped publicly.. they are old.. either played out or non productive exploration.. but no real values present... plus who knows how many have collapsed or are hidden well.. .. i think its hard enough to find 1 mine of value, much less 8 or more out there... prospecting your way is the only way to find it... the clues are fun but almost worthless at this point..... and stories are usually just that= stories... sorry.. just saying..

 

[Idahodutch]

Well .... I never looked for the other 8 .... the old topo maps showed lots of prospects, but just as you say, many have been looking. Many have dug holes.

When I went in the last time .... was to collect concentrated samples to test for presence of gold, and go up through saddle to the view spot and check for Four Peaks.

Found gold in the samples, strongest samples were from just below the ravine.
And had a spectacular view of A peak that was lined up just perfect in the viewing window ...

It’s not finished yet, still need to make another trip.