Letter from Robert T. Emmet, and the Lost Adams Diggings

[Springfield]

I'm pretty sure from what I have read so far that CO is not an option for LAD. However, my job takes me all over NM, and I have been along the AZ-NM border in the general area before. I get bored with the fact that so little info is available and so few people are working on treasure tales in CO that I cast my net a little wider at times. Plus I learn a lot about research from you guys and use stuff like LAD to hone my skills on that.

Golden Treasures Of San Juan: Temple H. Cornelius, John B. Marshall: 9780804006361: Amazon.com: Books

 

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[Old Bookaroo]

Springfield:

Is that the same book (under a different title) as: Sheepherder's Gold by Temple H Cornelius?

There's also the classic Treasure Tales of the Rockies by Perry Eberhart. I believe that went through several revisions (new editions).

On the Reynold's Gang loot take a look at Hands Up! by Gen. D. J. Cook - a number of editions and printing, including the wonderful Western Frontier Library (U of Oklahoma Press).

Histories of South Pass, and biographies of Uncle Dick Wooten (including one in the Time-Life Classics of the Old West series), could prove useful.

If you can find a copy, there's Fred Dorick's Treasures Galore (1969, 1970). There is a chapter here on the LUE - which leads us to the Treasure of the Valley of Secrets...

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Well Ladies & Gentlemen, new week.: Just to throw a small monkey wrench into the postings, Are these the two piloncillos described by el Injun?.

"If you go past these you have missed the entrance to ( LAD ) Tayopa and the zig zag canyon that leads to it ,,passing a small waterfall on your right, which comes from the ( LAD ) Paramo Placer?? There IS a small mesa with the ruins of a small house on it. .snicker

Not really suggesting that this 'IS' the LAD, but can one prove that it is not ? Everything fits except the Ft and North, but hasn't anyone heard of PTSD, etc. ?? Confusion in remembering things among others? Could easily explain why the men couldn't' return to the scene of the massacre, no?



p.s. May I also suggest that since Tayopa, as such, was closed by the Apache in aprox 1630, it is well within belief that they may have substtuted another name for it, hence your Apache could be telling the truth in saying that he didn't know of any TAYOPA.

 

[Springfield]

Springfield:

Is that the same book (under a different title) as: Sheepherder's Gold by Temple H Cornelius? ...

They are different and separate publications - Golden Treasures of the San Juan contains sixteen stories (©1961, I own this book), and Sheepherder's Gold is described as "twelve stories of lost treasures and hidden caches to buried mines" (©1964, I don't have this one). The important question becomes, are all stories different or are some of them repeated?

 

[Springfield]

... Not really suggesting that this 'IS' the LAD, but can one prove that it is not ? Everything fits except the Ft and North, but hasn't anyone heard of PTSD, etc. ?? Confusion in remembering things among others? Could easily explain why the men couldn't' return to the scene of the massacre, no? ....

Now, Don Jose, if I had a dollar for every set of twin peaks and zigzag canyon in the Southwest ... or if I had to prove them all not to be the LAD site ...

Well, here's two more sets of twins for you, not to mention zigzag canyons accessing them. The first is in a proven centuries-old placer and lode gold producing area - Pinos Altos, NM. In fact, I found the following carving in the white zone back in the 1970's: "ADAMS 1880". Since then, somebody has apparently removed the carving, since I've tried several times to find it again (in addition to my own name carved nearby that day), with no luck. Anyway, twin peaks in a gold zone:




The next place is about 50 miles west of the first. It's Apache Box no far from the Arizona line. Lots of folks believed this is the LAD site too. In fact, a treasure writer who used to publish a very good newsletter in Hatch, NM, was involved in a search expedition there in the late '70's and was accused and convicted of murdering one of his partners near the site (I attended the trial and still believe he was innocent). More prominent twin peaks (top center in the distance) and zigzag canyons:

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

All too true Springfield, but can you positively say that none of them is the LAD> Especially if the one in Tayopa is a bonanza placer? Long ago filed on the source of the Au for it. hehehe

Don't forget the Naranjal Mine just beyond the Piloncilios to the right.

And in the Middle is the magnificent TAYOPA in all of her glory. Kinda fun to see just how many stories fit this region, whether true or not. Then again ============hmmmmmm ?
Don Jose de la Manche

b) an amazing amount of talus and storm runoff can quickly s\cover an old mine site or placer ground. I have seen placers revealed and lost by this process.

 

[Springfield]

All too true Springfield, but can you positively say that none of them is the LAD> ...

This assumes in the first place that there is​ a LAD as described in the legends - something that I'm not convinced of. I do accept that there very likely were some sort of real historical events that spawned the legend, but these events could have been something other than a phantom lost placer mine. After all, our star witness, Adams, is not only unreliable, but also unidentified, which doesn't bolster our faith in the story as allegedly told by him. So, if the tale is a lie, then, yes, I can positively say that none of the sites are the LAD.

For the sake of argument though, let's assume the story is true. Despite all the different versions of the tale, a few points are reasonably common to most tellings and would need to be satisfied in order to prove the LAD's location. I would say the site was proven if someone found: 1) burned cabin ruins with a large jar of gold nuggets below the fireplace; 2) very rich gold placer in the canyon; 3) very rough country surrounding the diggings; 4) distinctive twin peaks close to the diggings; 5) an 1860's road not far from the diggings leading to an 1860's Army fort a day's ride away.

Points 3,4 and 5 are commonly found all over AZ and NM, and form the bases of numerous claims that the diggings have been located. Three out of five points - the easy three. To my knowledge, points 1 and 2 have yet to be demonstrated - in other words, nobody has shown the gold. Therefore, based on the evidence presented so far, I can say that none of the sites touted is the LAD.

Of course, there's the possibility that the diggings were found and quietly exploited generations ago - the cabin stash removed and the placer worked out. If so, this would explain why so many have sought the place unsuccessfully for so long - it's not there anymore.

All this leaves only one other option - the diggings are still out there waiting.

 

[UncleMatt]

Golden Treasures Of San Juan: Temple H. Cornelius, John B. Marshall: 9780804006361: Amazon.com: Books

I have several different copies of both of Temple Cornelius' books in my library, and have met, and I'm in contact with, his grandson and his daughter-in-law. I grew up in Durango.

 

[UncleMatt]

Of course, there's the possibility that the diggings were found and quietly exploited generations ago - the cabin stash removed and the placer worked out. If so, this would explain why so many have sought the place unsuccessfully for so long - it's not there anymore.

There is a story that was put up on T-net about some guys who deciphered a treasure map on a rock south of Cortez, CO. They found where it had been, but nothing of the treasure was left. Its a good read, and goes to show that sometimes you get beat to the draw.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

UncleMatt:

So those two books by Cornelius cover different treasure stories?

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield wrote

Ooops. SW Colorado is oozing with gold and silver.

My mistake, I was thinking of the Navajo reservation area in SW Colorado, not the entire southwestern quarter of the state; should have been more specific.

Springfield also wrote
[qipte]Funny you should say that Oro. The Snively 1867 Expedition story is a terrific read, and when I finished it, I thought, " Mounted expedition headed for uncharted mountains looking for fabulous gold deposit; big, big Indian trouble; twin peaks nearby; fort nearby; man with a deformed ear." Sound familiar? [/quote]

Yes - could be the origin of the LAD?

Old Bookaroo wrote

Commander mentions he and his team found evidence of the battle between the soldiers and the Indians. Now, I've been at this for a few years, and this twist to the story is news to me.

New to me too - never heard of any battle with soldiers associated with the LAD? Anyone know of such a detail?

UncleMatt wrote

I'm pretty sure from what I have read so far that CO is not an option for LAD. However, my job takes me all over NM, and I have been along the AZ-NM border in the general area before. I get bored with the fact that so little info is available and so few people are working on treasure tales in CO that I cast my net a little wider at times. Plus I learn a lot about research from you guys and use stuff like LAD to hone my skills on that.

Ever heard of the lost Stewart placer? Might be right up your alley?
The Lost Stewart Placer

Real de Tayopa wrote

Not really suggesting that this 'IS' the LAD, but can one prove that it is not ? Everything fits except the Ft and North, but hasn't anyone heard of PTSD, etc. ?? Confusion in remembering things among others? Could easily explain why the men couldn't' return to the scene of the massacre, no?

The fort is a key element of the Lost Adams amigo, as far as I know, no American forts are in your area?

Springfield's five points are a good summation - and he has pointed out the problems, that there are SO many places that will fit some of these, yet no one has turned up the gold, which would be a strong point to prove a place as the LAD.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[UncleMatt]

The lost Stewart placer was covered up by the Utes. And yes there are different treasure stories covered in Temple's two books. As much as you guys are familiar with LAD and other Arizona/New Mexico tales, I am equally versed in Colorado's treasure tales. Especially those in the San Juan Mountains that are discussed by Temple.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

UncleMatt:

My book suggestions - and I don't think I'm taking much of risk here when I suggest Springfield's post - were in response to your statement "I get bored with the fact that so little info is available and so few people are working on treasure tales in CO that I cast my net a little wider at times."

They certainly were not intended to suggest you didn't thoroughly know your topic. Just trying to help with some additional research ideas.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

It seems that most have no idea what a Piloncillo lookslike, soooo they are NOT twin peaks,or simply two peaks, but definately cone shapped. Turn an ice cream cone upside down and you see the form of a piloncillo. It is very distinctive which is probably why it was used as a land mark.

The two peaks that I posted are an excellent example of what a Piloncillo looks like, so far I haven't seen anthing that looks like a Piloncillo posted here or in any other reference or books.




The piloncillo is the steep sided cone on the right in the cooking picture. very distinctive.
Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning it's coffee time hound master : "Forts??what forts,? we don need no stinkin forts" <-- carefully spelled. Which brings us back to another point -- 'PTSD',-- and it's many possible forms. Many, under a very traumatic situation, only retain certain aspects of it, often transported mentally to another situation which had no connection to the first yet the situation which promoted the first is somehow now part of the latter. Under these circumstances one could indeed truly believe in their consciousness that this or that happened, when in actuality it never did in that time or situation.

Beth, explain it to that traitorous, would be sheep lover.

I will be the first to say that probably there is no connection to the LAD, but since it hasn't been found in what is basically a small area, well covered with explorers, maps, aerial photographs, and now sat, including the great deceiver, Google Earth coverage, to play with, it must be somewhere else.---> Mexico snicker.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[UncleMatt]

UncleMatt:

My book suggestions - and I don't think I'm taking much of risk here when I suggest Springfield's post - were in response to your statement "I get bored with the fact that so little info is available and so few people are working on treasure tales in CO that I cast my net a little wider at times."

They certainly were not intended to suggest you didn't thoroughly know your topic. Just trying to help with some additional research ideas.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

I didn't take it any other way, and hope I didn't respond in a defensive way. When I said I was bored with lack of information, I was referring to boots on the ground info, not what can be found in books. Few people are able to navigate the high country, and those that do rarely post on treasure hunting sites on online. Much effort must be expended to look for gold of any kind up there, and subsequently people hold their hard-earned-info very close to the vest. I am one of the few THers operating up there that is willing to share in a public way, and I am sure I am cursed by some up there for it. :-)

 

[Old Bookaroo]

UncleMatt:

I continue to believe there are more full-time treasure hunters in Colorado than there are in Florida.

Successful ones, anyway.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

PS: Are you familiar with "Uncle Dick" Wootton: The Pioneer Frontiersman of the Rocky Mountain Region by Howard Louis Conard?

 

[Oroblanco]

UncleMatt wrote

The lost Stewart placer was covered up by the Utes.

I had not heard (or read) that anywhere, but would appreciate any tip on where to look. It was just a suggestion amigo - a lost mine that I would not mind going looking for myself, unfortunately due to elevations that has to be done in the warmer months when I am not usually free to go. It is hard to cover up a placer so perfectly that it cannot be found, I would not let that be a stumbling block to me but that is a personal opinion.

Don Jose del la Mancha wrote

I will be the first to say that probably there is no connection to the LAD, but since it hasn't been found in what is basically a small area, well covered with explorers, maps, aerial photographs, and now sat, including the great deceiver, Google Earth coverage, to play with, it must be somewhere else.---> Mexico

snicker.

Aha! You admit it, that you are deliberately trying to MISLEAD us poor innocent treasure hunters to go a-hunting into some far-away, downright dangerous and steep barranca country where your Yaqui and Tarahumara pals are apt to part us from our top-knots! What is it amigo, they are running short on scalps to decorate el casas perhaps? Your points are sound of course, but to me, the fort is a very key ingredient to the LAD; it was made a point of, to tell Adams and his party that the road crossed, old/disused perhaps, led directly to the American fort. As far as I know, no American fort(s) have ever been in Tayopa country. I have a problem with Adams getting his directions THAT far off kilter to end up in Sonora/Chihuahua border country anyway. I can buy perhaps being off a bit north, a bit south of the general direction but ye gads that is really off if he ended up SO far south. Not to mention the sheer distance involved, would be covering considerably more miles per day on the route in. Also, Adams himself kept returning to the same general region (AZ/NM border country) which seems to be a most strong indicator that at least he believed it was there.

Of course we can all just stay home, conclude that it was all a tall tale and look at TV for edification.

One last point amigo as far as tying other lost mine legends into Tayopa, but I suspect that the scalp hunters ledge is very possibly a direct tie-in. I could be wrong, depends on how your read Dobie's version of it of course.

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd evening oro, I see that Beth hasn't explained the facts of life (PTSD) errr the LAD to you. Nah, not misleading , only showing that it could be anywhere. The fort thingie could be from a far earlier trip or experience super emposed upon the LAD memory After 10 years, it could be only a vague recollection of a previous expedition.. So eliminate the critical signs one by one and you might find the key. One of them is incorrect, whether voluntarily or involuntarily.

Incidentally, I personally would be delighted it someone finds it . What I am trying to do is to encourage the seekers to think out of the normal box since soo many efforts have failed with normal data.

Remember "The Indians made me forget "

The scalp hunters remark , I believe applies to the large 'lake' northeast of the Ciudad Cuatemoc area, just below The Tayopa # 1 zone near Madera.

P.s. Tayopa, for example, ended up some 90+ miles from where it was supposed to be and looked for.

NOW where is mi Coffee??

Don Jose de La Mancha

As for any actually being at Tayopa, it is soo easy to fit so many leads precisely into the Tayopa zone, curious and fascinating actually .

p.s. It has been speculated that perhaps the gold came from returning miners from Caliif. many many were simply hijacked and killed for their gold. It has even been speculated that is where the Dutchman got his gold, except his was hardrock..

Things were a bit rougher in those days--wanna story of Calif gold miners being killed, but whether from Indians or Adam's types?

 

[Oroblanco]

Here you are amigo, til we get together at camp for the real sock coffee.

Still can't buy your PTSD version amigo, you must stretch too many things to make it fit Tayopa. Shame on you, you meanie! You must be Oirish or something!
Oroblanco