Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

[Salvor6]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

JT, something similar happened to me last year. I went to Hog Island at the mouth of the Suwannee River with 2 buddys to treasure hunt. We couldn't rent a boat so the marina suggested we hire a guide. We hired a local outdoorsman with a 24' boat. I asked if we could bring our metal detectors and he said "Of course. And bring your shovels too." On the way out he told us about the 14 foot high Indian mound that was on Hog Island and how archies from the University of Florida came out there and destroyed the mound. It is now just 3' high. The archies collected over 20,000 artifacts and they are now at the University in Gainesville, closed to the public. They just disappeared! No papers were published. No reports were made. No one has access to the collection except the archies at the University. The town of Suwannee, FL is angry and there is a bounty on any archies that enter the town.

 

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[bigscoop]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

The museums actually pay the reward money out of their grant monies if I read it right. If you have the time to read it, this is a great paper to read.

http://www.cura.co.uk/thinktank/who/tt.htm

That was a good read as it outlines the many problems with any one system, and I also thought the last letter was quite telling as well. However, he leaves little guessing that given the choice he would certainly support any means to stop all metal detecting, even going as far as to support the use of electron devices to disrupt the signals of these machines as a means of rendering them completely useless.

As for a perfect system, probably would never happen right out of the gate, but over time.......? Either way, I do think their current system could be on the right track and I do think it is something that could be used as a designing platform in this country.

 

[Twisted One]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

I agree, the person that wrote that was certainly not pro hobbyist. But he does support the fact that it will not be stopped except through desperate means.
He also acknowledges the fact that the current, and previous systems in England were beneficial for the most part, while still flawed. It allowed the treasure hunter to be paid, it allowed the items of significance to be examined, displayed and managed by the government and curators.
It did seem to create issues between treasure hunters and the owners of the property, but as they mentioned most came to an agreement before the property was searched.

Every system has it's pros and cons. I think coming up with a system that has more pros than cons would be easy, coming up with a system that would be beneficial for both archaeologist, and treasure hunters probably just as easy. Coming to an agreement on every aspect would probably be near impossible unless you had the right people in charge of making those decisions.

If we had to come up with a committee of 12 people, and took six archaeologist, and six treasure hunters, all in the top of their field as far as experience, education, and the ability to be open minded from both perspectives. I think we would have a winning solution with in a few months.
It would not make everyone 100% happy, but I bet they could please the majority.

 

[bigscoop]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

I agree, the person that wrote that was certainly not pro hobbyist. But he does support the fact that it will not be stopped except through desperate means.
He also acknowledges the fact that the current, and previous systems in England were beneficial for the most part, while still flawed. It allowed the treasure hunter to be paid, it allowed the items of significance to be examined, displayed and managed by the government and curators.
It did seem to create issues between treasure hunters and the owners of the property, but as they mentioned most came to an agreement before the property was searched.

Every system has it's pros and cons. I think coming up with a system that has more pros than cons would be easy, coming up with a system that would be beneficial for both archaeologist, and treasure hunters probably just as easy. Coming to an agreement on every aspect would probably be near impossible unless you had the right people in charge of making those decisions.

If we had to come up with a committee of 12 people, and took six archaeologist, and six treasure hunters, all in the top of their field as far as experience, education, and the ability to be open minded from both perspectives. I think we would have a winning solution with in a few months.
It would not make everyone 100% happy, but I bet they could please the majority.

And then what? I'm guessing the actual implementing of these new laws would be quite another ordeal? Maybe a three year pilot period instead of a complete restructuring with the new platform? Realize I'm thinking way ahead but........

 

[lostcauses]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

I like all this talk.
Yet are we dealing with federal, state, county, city land??
I can give the archeologist arguments so fast and quick, and they are hard to counter.
To top it all off:
Found property laws already exist in most places. This of course is the easiest tool against all forms of THing.

A focus to were such would have to start is needed.

 

[bigscoop]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

I believe this is just covering state law/lands. City and county properties/laws/regulations are a different issue as would be any Federal laws & regs.

 

[Twisted One]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

I think city, state and federal laws all need to be addresses. Task Force for Metal Detecting Rights just sent me an email about some changes being made in Kentucky. http://www.lrc.ky.gov/record/12rs/SB105.htm SB 105 Makes it so that you can use a metal detector in State Parks. You must register at the state park or monument office. More or less sounds like you will have to get a permit, but it opens up the ability to detect in state parks by doing so.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Exactly Jon, I too would gladly pay for any licensing, I would also attend any necessary classes (or even teach them if needed). I would say 80% of metal detector users are ethical and want to do the right thing, while we do "our thing". The other 20% are the actual looters and grave robbers who give us all a bad name. I'd gladly eradicate them from our ranks. 80% of archaeologists don't have a problem with me finding a few bone tools or Spanish coins, so long as I report everything correctly, the other 20% of them can be eradicated as well. Then we are left with a sensible majority that can work together peacefully, and accomplish many hundreds of times more actual work than we are doing now.

Who will spearhead the movement? I have archaeologists that will help us "quietly" at first to get things written properly. Anyone have any experience with starting or running a special interest group like the NRA? I think we should stay away from names that make us look like we are on the offensive. Task Force for Metal Detecting Rights just has an offensive tone to it, then with SB868 we had a facebook page called "the USSR of Florida". While amusing to us, I believe they keep us from being taken seriously. Something like National Metal Detecting Association or something simple and to the point would be better, I like your ideas as well.

Very nicely written Jason Licensing means being accountable, which is a good thing. Having a degree means nothing,
hands on is how you learn, but with the correct procedures.

 

[bigscoop]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Who will spearhead the movement? I have archaeologists that will help us "quietly" at first to get things written properly. Anyone have any experience with starting or running a special interest group like the NRA? I think we should stay away from names that make us look like we are on the offensive. Task Force for Metal Detecting Rights just has an offensive tone to it, then with SB868 we had a facebook page called "the USSR of Florida". While amusing to us, I believe they keep us from being taken seriously. Something like National Metal Detecting Association or something simple and to the point would be better, I like your ideas as well.

How bout just, "American Discovery & Recovery Association"...leave the "treasure" and/or "Metal Detecting" overtones out of it. Something this simple also lends itself nicely to all involved, i.e., individual pursuits and areas of interest, related companies, archeologist, historical societies, etc. Just a thought.......

 

[Salvor6]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

How about "Loot & Scoot."

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

How about "Loot & Scoot."

How about the Historical artifact Association
Ossy

 

[Twisted One]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

The problem with either of those ideas for association is in the fact that you are including the ability to invite those that we tend to fight. How long before they become the majority of the voice with in the fight, and turn the association against what it was originally intended for?

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

The problem with either of those ideas for association is in the fact that you are including the ability to invite those that we tend to fight. How long before they become the majority of the voice with in the fight, and turn the association against what it was originally intended for?

I disagree. As SubaFinda suggested, licensing! you would find they would have to meet a certain
bench mark standard which I'm sure some would have no problem achieving now.
This is were the Archeologist can help, they can set a minimum standard for licensing.
Once licensed information can be shared.
Ossy

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

There would also have to be a signed code of ethics. If you break the code, you walk the plank. Also, I tend to think the course should be more of an online course with maybe a weekend field school. I'd like to see it have a cost, and be hard enough that not just anybody could take and pass it. I'd like it to be in depth enough that only those who truly want to do things right would even bother with it. Somehow, we have to get the good guys in, and keep the "Loot & Scooters" out.

Salvor6 is a friend of mine, and make no mistake about it, he is a true Pirate. I don't think he'll be too interested in joining our ethical group. It's much more likely that he'll fire a shot across our bow if he sees us. Watch out for the Black Pearl! On that note though, he's been at this something like 20 years longer than me. His "Loot & Scoot" mentality comes from decades of dealing with state archaeologists and being told "No Pete, you are not allowed to follow your passion". I can easily understand how he got to this mindset, he is a perfect example of 'the other side". You won't find many guys who are more studious than Pete, he's got a treasure trove of documentation and information that rivals any I've seen. He has a love for history and adventure just like all of us do. He's just given up on Tallahassee, and he's not alone in that idea. How long until the regulations in Tallahassee turn you and I into pirates? This is what I'm trying to avoid...if they keep pushing us, I believe most of us will eventually go rogue and do things we wouldn't normally do, just to spite them. I don't want to see this happen to another generation of history loving explorers like Salvor6.

 

[bigscoop]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

There would also have to be a signed code of ethics. If you break the code, you walk the plank.

I understand your thinking and reasoning here, but unless you're going to include required permits, etc., people just aren't going to sign something they don't have to sign. The biggest problem I see is that the vast majority of the voices you seek are hobbyist or weekend warriors who just want to be able to do their own thing at their own leisure. Unless required "MD operating permits" become law then I seriously doubt the vast majority will freely offer to sign anything. This is kind of a tricky catch 22 area.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

More like signing it is a requirement to get your license. Just like when signing up for The Task Force for Detecting Rights, you agree automatically to abide by their code of ethics. Not so different than what I'm talking about.

 

[Twisted One]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

The problem with either of those ideas for association is in the fact that you are including the ability to invite those that we tend to fight. How long before they become the majority of the voice with in the fight, and turn the association against what it was originally intended for?

I disagree. As SubaFinda suggested, licensing! you would find they would have to meet a certain
bench mark standard which I'm sure some would have no problem achieving now.
This is were the Archeologist can help, they can set a minimum standard for licensing.
Once licensed information can be shared.
Ossy

Licensing and permits would be handled by a government entity, not by an association.

The association would be nothing more than a political party, a single voice for the masses.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

If you would define treasure hunting?

Indy, this isn't about Treasure Hunting, it's about finding common ground between amateur artifact hunters and professional archaeologists. I've never considered myself a treasure hunter....a history hunter maybe. To me, everything I find historical IS a treasure. Every piece of sea glass I pick up is a treasure, and of course, the hundreds of Spanish cobs I've found are also treasures, but not more so than the clay pipes or pottery shards or indian bone tools. I guess treasure hunting would be best defined as "seeking out the things that you treasure". I consider estate sales treasure hunting just as much as a dive on a Spanish Galleon. Lets try not to get tied up in simple semantics...there is a much bigger picture here.

 

[Twisted One]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

I think the main purpose here would be finding a common ground between archaeologist, and hobbyist, to loosen some of the current restrictions on our hobby.
As Scubadiver said, whether that is looking for specific historical items of value, or historical items that only you would treasure.

Current restrictions prohibit either equally and in many ways restricting out rights, by throwing in the "Ethics" card. Lol, just made that up, pretty funny huh? The Ethics card.

When in this case the ethics of the situation are not as cut and dry as some archaeologist would like to think, and not as loose as some hobbyist would like to think. Current laws to keep people from exploiting possible important areas, also keeps us from exploring less important areas, that nobody is going to bother with if we don't.

Archaeologist believe it is all important, which in many cases it is, but they are never going to get enough funding to excavate all of these areas, so they are forced to prioritize the locations as best they can. So that bottom half of their list will never be gotten to before it is built on, or paved over, or destroyed by form of nature.
Yet they insist we are not worthy of recovering these items. Why? Because many of us would put them in private collections, sell them on ebay, etc...

In my opinion, so what? If they were of lesser importance to be neglected for so long, and probably neglected beyond any of our life times, then why not allow responsible, possibly licensed, and permitted people recover those items. For a profit? If we want to! For a private collection? If we want to. To donate to a local museum? If we want to!

There should be regulation, not restriction.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

After some thinking and some discussions in private with several parties. Here are some condensed thoughts:

The metal detecting permit would be much like a fishing license, $20-$30 a year for residents, $30-$40 for non-residents, and a $15 7-day permit for tourists. This would generate more than enough money to regulate everything, and probably enough to hire some watchdogs to monitor the actions of detectorists. When you get your license, you would sign it indicating that you intend to abide by the laws. With your permit, you will be able to hunt anywhere that is not a dedicated archaeological site or already leased, as in underwater salvage permit areas. You would be required to report your finds, but then they would be yours as they were in the old Isolated Finds Program. If necessary, archaeologists could request the item for inspection and photography. There would be a simple ethics pamphlet handed to you with your license, this is what you would agree to by signing your license.

There would also be a more in depth online course with a field school which would get you "amateur historian" status. This would allow you to conduct INVESTIGATIONS (not excavations) on any state lands or waters. The equivalent of a statewide exploration lease for anyone completing the course. This would allow all of us who are interested to explore just about anywhere looking for sites, we would be limited to non-digging activities, and would only be allowed to collect a few artifacts for the purpose of identification and research. The reporting from this license would be more in depth, and a requirement for keeping your license. If you found something important, you would apply for an excavation license, allowing you to fully excavate the site under the guidance of a degree holding archaeologist.

We would write, with an archaeologist, all of the guidelines for each type of license. The funds collected would more than pay for the resources need to oversee the project. I'm sure we would hear some grumbling from some about having to pay for a license, but the freedom it would gain us all would be worth it in my eyes. Thoughts?