Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Scuba, my fellow coffee addict, :coffee2: :coffee2: you bring up an interesting point. Why should I go to the expense, and now danger from the narco cuartels, to show how the Jesuits were operating and Plotting in North America by retracing their physical path of transporting the smelted metals to Rome, as well as their stockpiling metal to finance the proposed takeover??

If there are any Titled Archaeologists out there that wish to take over, of course without pay, expenses, or probably without recogition, as I am doing, step forward and I will give you the basic details !

Remember land Archaeology is just as important, if not more so, as Marine Archaeology. All Archaeology 'starts' on Land.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

I think on the Florida bill S868 we have proven we have a voice. The Task Force for Metal Detecting Rights has proven we have a voice, and with more support can they can prove it on a much larger scale. The problem is we have to continue to exercise that voice, and not go silent.
I mentioned that it was taking off the table to an archaeologist, their reply was, "Next time then." Like whatever, we will still win. Those are the types I have no interest with even working with on a solution.
 

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Those are the ones we should be working to get out of office! There are plenty of GREAT archaeologists who don't look at the world through rose-colored glasses. The guys who think like your example will never accomplish anything, because they are too busy fighting us!

I may have a different take than many on the situation because I know several archaeologists personally who are brilliant, grounded, and realistic about what they can accomplish in their profession. These guys hate with a passion the ivory tower approach. That mindset really is a minority across the archaeological community. I can say that, because I'm not trying to WORK as an archaeologist. The poor guys who see the light can't say that because it would be career suicide to do so. To say things need to change on their side is an understatement, but we must also admit that things need to change a bit on our side as well. At the very least, the ethical among us need to group up and disassociate with the actual looters and grave-robbers. If we could get the reasonable archaeologists to band together with us also, the two voices might be able to accomplish something. If we could even work together, and generate a work plan, and an education plan, and an isolated finds plan. And then present a complete, workable model to higher ups in the government, with archaeological support, who knows. Maybe we could skip the B.S. at the head of the Bureau of Archaeological Resources and go right to somebody who can think clearly. Maybe even someone who could sign our plan into action, despite the grumblings from other offices.
 

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

We need something like the automotive aftermarket and restoration business has in SEMA, and the firearms/sport shooting/hunting/collecting camp has with the NRA.

That would mean that the manufacturers and retailers would need to band together with the end users and customers to have any political clout and money for lawyers and political lobbyists.

How about THEMA...Treasure Hunters Equipement Manufacturers Association?
Or MDEMA...Metal Detector Equipement Manufacturers Association if the "Treasure Hunters" is too "scary"?

It could address legal issues all over the country, and preserve our right to freedom and the pursuit of happiness while preserving their future sales in the industry....and be dedicated to ethical metal detecting/diving/bottle hunting/fossil and arrowhead hunting...whatever.

There could be a yearly show/sale in Orlando or Las Vegas or whatever.....all the manufacturers in one place showing off their stuff....

With Gov. Scott in office (like him or hate him) and already making statements to the fact that Florida doesn't need more archaeologists and such....it might be a good time to push the issue of common sense where artifacts and metal detecting is concerned.

I'm all for a permit system....it adds money to keep our parks open, and provides access to state land that is already off limits. I would pay $25-$50 a year to be able to hunt on state land that isn't a historical park. There are lots of fort and camp sites on state land, as well as old ghost towns, or fishing villiages...etc.
 

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Exactly Jon, I too would gladly pay for any licensing, I would also attend any necessary classes (or even teach them if needed). I would say 80% of metal detector users are ethical and want to do the right thing, while we do "our thing". The other 20% are the actual looters and grave robbers who give us all a bad name. I'd gladly eradicate them from our ranks. 80% of archaeologists don't have a problem with me finding a few bone tools or Spanish coins, so long as I report everything correctly, the other 20% of them can be eradicated as well. Then we are left with a sensible majority that can work together peacefully, and accomplish many hundreds of times more actual work than we are doing now.

Who will spearhead the movement? I have archaeologists that will help us "quietly" at first to get things written properly. Anyone have any experience with starting or running a special interest group like the NRA? I think we should stay away from names that make us look like we are on the offensive. Task Force for Metal Detecting Rights just has an offensive tone to it, then with SB868 we had a facebook page called "the USSR of Florida". While amusing to us, I believe they keep us from being taken seriously. Something like National Metal Detecting Association or something simple and to the point would be better, I like your ideas as well.
 

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

I honestly think if they set up a curriculum to deal with major issues. "Proper recovery techniques", "Proper recording techniques", ""Proper cleaning techniques", "What, when, and where to report your finding", and I am sure there are many others. Most of those can be covered in a fairly short term. Maybe even combine them all into a single semester of night classes at most community colleges, heck in most cases it could be an online course.

At the end you get tested on the subject, a passing grade earns you a certificate that allows you to then buy a license that is life long. With this license you are allowed to purchase permits from government facilities allowing you to detect certain places at certain times. This could go as far as opening Federal and state lands to us, because they know we are capable at this point.

Will it stop the looting? Not anymore then hunting licenses stopped poaching. What it will do is put the rest of us in a better light. What it might do is open up more opportunities to us by opening more land to us. In my opinion our hobby is not much different then sport hunting. We are looking for trophies more or less, but we are not killing animals, or endangering people.
 

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

When it comes to associations for political agendas. The one that comes to mind is detectingrights.com which is the Task Force for Metal Detecting Rights. It's a non-profit that is set up just for this situation. Is it specifically for metal detectorist? I don't think it would be.
The recent issue with S868 was only border line an issue to do with Metal Detecting, but they jumped in there and joined the fight against the bill.
It cost nothing to join, and it is supported by Minelab which recently gave them over $40k dollars for the fighting. It cost nothing to join, you just sign up for a news letter and to be notified when there is an issue arising, and then they help get the contact info for all of the politicians involved so we can all voice our opinions.
This could be a great media for us to all ban together, and for those of you that do shipwrecks to join in together with the metal detectorist to fight anymore political issues coming.
All for one, one for all type thing. I don't see a downside for anyone to join, only an increase in power for every person that joins.
 

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

ScubaFinder said:
Don't think of me as solely a shipwreck salvor either, my last find was a washed out indian midden with bone tools, arrowheads, pottery shards, etc. I collected everything visible from the surface, and it is all soaking in fresh water to stabilize it (it was found on the shore of a saltwater environment). An archaeologist buddy of mine will be coming with me when we remove the rubble and look deeper into the area. We will try to deduce the age of the objects, the tribe of Native Floridian that left them, and the boundaries of the site. He will turn in a report to the state, along with a sampling of the artifacts, and a request for permission to continue the dig. History teaches us that we likely will not even receive a reply, and if we do it will thank us for our information, and urge us to not disturb the site any further. That will be the end of it, they wont come investigate or finish the excavation.shou If not for me, we would never know the first thing about the site...and I WILL finish the dig, just to make sure there isn't something more important there.
Click to expand...

Your example of that midden is "Exhibit A" of the mindset of many archeologists and bureaucrats. They'd rather let that midden erode away and lose everything than stomach the thought of a "non-professional" saving the artifacts. We have the same thing here in SC, indian mounds eroding away, and archeologists not only not saving artifacts..but insisting that the mounds be left alone. It's pure madness.

Another perfect example like yours is here in SC on Morris Island. Morris Island is the island the Civil War battle immortalized in the movie "Glory" was fought on. The City of Charleston decreed that metal detecting on this uninhabited island is illegal. The problem is, Morris Island is eroding away. Battery Wagner (the site of the battle) is now gone, eroded into Charleston harbor. They'd rather see some bullets or buttons wash into the ocean than wind up in the hands of school kids or collectors. Is a Civil War bullet valuable? No...but again, it's that sense of history, holding it in your hand and wondering what happened to the soldier that was holding it.

I've been told by someone "in the know" that there's a storage room around Fort Moultrie that's literally jammed with Civil War uniforms, flags, weapons, and assorted implements/artifacts/equipment that was donated by families in the decades after the war, and are now stored away in shelves, lockers, cabinets, and boxes. The public doesn't have access to this, and in reality the public doesn't even know it exists....but periodically an employee will go into the room, make sure water's not leaking in, and lock the room back up. There's not even an accounting of what's in the room, no one really seems to know or care. The guy that told me was absolutely flabbergasted at what's just sitting in the dark, locked away, with absolutely no accountability to ensure that items don't disappear...they don't even know what they have!
 

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

This is what it is coming to when we talk about museums. The Archaeologist claim museums do not sell items, and if they do it is only to other museums. They are wrong. They are trying to avoid the truth. Here are links I found in a quick search, not even really trying.

http://www.citypaper.net/blogs/nake...um_selling_artifacts_to_fund_restoration.html

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-05-23-sell-history_N.htm

http://acn.liveauctioneers.com/inde...pa-to-sell-sell-artifacts-from-museum-project
 

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

A) What is a true artifact, and what is just old stuff? This is another area that I think needs to be "revised". Street value alone should not be used as a means of turning something old into an artifact of historical significance, neither should age alone be used to classify the item.

B) "Looters"....seems to be tossed about and applied in rather general terms these days, as if anyone who removes anything of historical or monetary value from the ground or seabed is a looter. Non-sense!

C) Nothing should automatically belong to the state. If John Doe finds it and they want it, or they feel it's significant enough to possess....then pay John Doe something for his significant discovery. "Period!" If John Doe wants to donate it, fine, his choice. But if not, which should also be his choice.....then at least provide a format that allows him to recover something significant and fair for his significant find.
 

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

bigscoop said:
A) What is a true artifact, and what is just old stuff? This is another area that I think needs to be "revised". Street value alone should not be used as a means of turning something old into an artifact of historical significance, neither should age alone be used to classify the item.

B) "Looters"....seems to be tossed about and applied in rather general terms these days, as if anyone who removes anything of historical or monetary value from the ground or seabed is a looter. Non-sense!

C) Nothing should automatically belong to the state. If John Doe finds it and they want it, or they feel it's significant enough to possess....then pay John Doe something for his significant discovery. "Period!" If John Doe wants to donate it, fine, his choice. But if not, which should also be his choice.....then at least provide a format that allows him to recover something significant and fair for his significant find.
Click to expand...

Your point A, leads to my system of placing a scale system on items, judged on there historical significance, and rarity deciding if they are worthy of being investigated by archaeologist, or should be legal to be obtained by the public.

Your point B is right on the spot, whether doing so legally or illegally does not seem to matter to the more vocal archaeologist. Anyone obtaining artifacts other then another archaeologist is considered a looter. This does not apply to all archaeologist though. Some, the ones we never hear from for various legitimate reasons understand there is a difference.

Your point C is very valid. In fact I hate to throw around the term but look up communism in the dictionary. It is written just so... a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
 

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Thanks for those links, very enlightening! The scale system is a bit flawed though, what if we converted the scale to artifacts only, not terribly different than how we do shipwreck artifacts now on the points system. Currently, someone finds a gold bird (actual example) worth 800,000 points. An average silver coin is worth 300 points. If the state wants to keep the bird, they have to "pay" you enough other artifacts to cover the point value. This is used with legally permitted salvors now.

What if we used a different system to evaluate artifacts. Lets say we get permission to excavate a site, or hunt lands, or whatever. If we do your scale on individual artifacts, then you could keep all of the pottery shards and arrowheads that don't have specific historical value or interest, but if you find a fulsom point or something historically unique, the scale would award it to the state. I don't know, but I like the line of thinking so far.
 

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Good conversation so far, however, I think it's important to understand that much of what is established in the marine world is often likewise applied to other aspects of treasure hunting, etc. When we talk of a point system, that may be fine for "larger scale events" where many artifacts are being recovered, but it must also be remembered that these arrangements couldn't as easily be applied to the individual finder, or salver, whichever the case may be. So if John Doe finds a one of a kind jewel incrusted piece of ancient jewelry how should he be treated and hopefully compensated for his isolated discovery? And remember, he already has it in his personal possession. If you want to really bring "everyone" in these different communities together then this is "THE REALLY BIG ISSUE" that's keeping so many divided and preventing them from jumping on board. :dontknow:
 

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

bigscoop said:
Good conversation so far, however, I think it's important to understand that much of what is established in the marine world is often likewise applied to other aspects of treasure hunting, etc. When we talk of a point system, that may be fine for "larger scale events" where many artifacts are being recovered, but it must also be remembered that these arrangements couldn't as easily be applied to the individual finder, or salver, whichever the case may be. So if John Doe finds a one of a kind jewel incrusted piece of ancient jewelry how should he be treated and hopefully compensated for his isolated discovery? And remember, he already has it in his personal possession. If you want to really bring "everyone" in these different communities together then this is "THE REALLY BIG ISSUE" that's keeping so many divided and preventing them from jumping on board. :dontknow:
Click to expand...

This would probably require the use of a committee. For both the issuing of rules, and point values of artifacts for placement on the scale. The second use of the committee would for objects of value, historical and financial. Such as the large jewel encrusted jewelry you mentioned.
I believe in the UK when a hoard is found by someone they are required to turn it in, but are financially rewarded for the find. If I read it correctly the items are put before a committee that judges the items found and places an approximate value of the items, and the finder is compensated using that value as a basis, I am not sure if they are compensate on a percentage of that value or on the whole amount. The Hoxne Horde was a great example, here is an excerpt from the wikipedia page.

In November 1993, the Treasure Trove Reviewing Committee valued the hoard at £1.75 million (today £2.66 million), which was paid to Lawes, as finder of the treasure. He shared his reward with the farmer, Peter Whatling.[18] Three years later, the 1996 Treasure Act made it a legal requirement that the finder and the landowner should be rewarded equally.[19]
 

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Twisted One said:
bigscoop said:
Good conversation so far, however, I think it's important to understand that much of what is established in the marine world is often likewise applied to other aspects of treasure hunting, etc. When we talk of a point system, that may be fine for "larger scale events" where many artifacts are being recovered, but it must also be remembered that these arrangements couldn't as easily be applied to the individual finder, or salver, whichever the case may be. So if John Doe finds a one of a kind jewel incrusted piece of ancient jewelry how should he be treated and hopefully compensated for his isolated discovery? And remember, he already has it in his personal possession. If you want to really bring "everyone" in these different communities together then this is "THE REALLY BIG ISSUE" that's keeping so many divided and preventing them from jumping on board. :dontknow:
Click to expand...

This would probably require the use of a committee. For both the issuing of rules, and point values of artifacts for placement on the scale. The second use of the committee would for objects of value, historical and financial. Such as the large jewel encrusted jewelry you mentioned.
I believe in the UK when a hoard is found by someone they are required to turn it in, but are financially rewarded for the find. If I read it correctly the items are put before a committee that judges the items found and places an approximate value of the items, and the finder is compensated using that value as a basis, I am not sure if they are compensate on a percentage of that value or on the whole amount. The Hoxne Horde was a great example, here is an excerpt from the wikipedia page.

In November 1993, the Treasure Trove Reviewing Committee valued the hoard at £1.75 million (today £2.66 million), which was paid to Lawes, as finder of the treasure. He shared his reward with the farmer, Peter Whatling.[18] Three years later, the 1996 Treasure Act made it a legal requirement that the finder and the landowner should be rewarded equally.[19]
Click to expand...

I think something like this would have a HUGE positive impact on bringing these different communities together. No more "fears" and a ton of new stuff showing up all the time. :thumbsup:
 

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

I wonder where the UK gets the money to fund its system. I know that most items are left to the finder unless they are really unique. Maybe they tax museums and use that to fund the payments...or they sell the items to a museum for more than what they owe the finder. I need to dig WAY deeper into their system and see what we can learn. Sounds like a good project for tomorrow. As you can probably tell, my job keeps me very busy. lol
 

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

ScubaFinder said:
I wonder where the UK gets the money to fund its system. I know that most items are left to the finder unless they are really unique. Maybe they tax museums and use that to fund the payments...or they sell the items to a museum for more than what they owe the finder. I need to dig WAY deeper into their system and see what we can learn. Sounds like a good project for tomorrow. As you can probably tell, my job keeps me very busy. lol
Click to expand...

Too windy to work today. :laughing9: And besides, you are blazing a new trail....."working". :thumbsup:
 

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

I keep a winter job now and then to pay for gas for my boat and to fill my air tanks. :-)
 

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

I honestly think with the cooperation of respected individuals from the Archaeology field, and from the treasure hunting field, as well as involved government agencies.
An entire new system could be built, and in place with in a year. Of course over the next few years there would need to be some fine tuning to address unforeseen circumstances.

But over all a working model could be built and incorporated that would be beneficial to all parties. You don't need to appease everyone, only the majority. Previously the majority would have seemed to have been the archaeologist. I think with Floridas bill S868 this has been proven to no longer be true. In fact if we are not on equal ground as far as population I would say the Treasure Hunters would have the higher ground.
Our voices were heard, addressed and satisfied thanks to the involvement of everyone on the forums, and the few agencies the got involved. I honestly think it was not the majority of us that responded either. Think what we could do if everyone unified in to only a couple of small groups. The power we would have would be amazing. I think if set on the right path we could not only crush these laws before they are enacted, but possibly remove, or amend current laws.

I have pretty much told myself I will bring up avenues such as detecingrights.com which is The Task Force for Metal Detecting Rights, as much as I can during discussions that it would apply to. Not out of any glorification of them, or myself since other than signing up with them I have no connection to them, but to hopefully get more people to sign up with them. I figure if one person signs up every time I mention it, pretty soon it will be a force to be reckoned with no matter which government entity it is up against.


I am new to the hobby if metal detecting, but I am amazed at the power that the hobbyist has seemingly just realized it has, and I am more amazed that a lot of people seem to be willing to let it go at that. If we go into silence now, it will be a matter of time before someone tries to sneak another bill through.
 

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