Legend of the Stone Maps

I must apologize, I post under a variety of topics on T-net, and in many threads I often have to tolerate the most outlandish claims imaginable. It tends to wear on you after awhile when you are trying to have factually based discussions about topics, and people start making claims that are obviously not rooted in reality, but instead rooted in what people want to think or fantasize. Such things tend to divert the conversation and topic off course. I admit I have a low tolerance for such things, and find them very annoying. However, I should not allow those people to cause me to over react in general. So if anyone was insulted by my previous comments about people making baseless claims to feel important, sorry about that.
 

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The Way

Hello Hal

In a recent post you stated:

"Neil Merton Judd, curator of the National Museum at the Smithsonian Institution happened to be in Tucson at the time of the discovery of the objects and, after examining them, also thought they were fakes, proposing that they may have been created by "some mentally incompetent individual with a flair for old Latin and the wars of antiquity".

I am not sure where most professional psychologists draw the line between mental instability and the creative mind. I would say that it must involve a certain level of suspended reality. That IMO, is expressed perfectly in the tale inscribed into the Tucson trinkets.

Perhaps you could help me here. Can you provide any supporting evidence that Judd ever believed the artifacts were fake?

I find your statement surprising since Judd is quoted as saying in a New York Times article from 12/12&12/14/1925 that and I quote, "I believe no hoax or fraud is involved".

Furthermore your quote regarding the mental state of the creator(there were several creators), comes from a letter from Judd to Manier in July 1925. In this letter Judd makes no statement to the effect the artifacts were fake. In fact he states,"Had I not personally dug out the two specimens visible at the time of my visit--numbers 12 and 14 as I recall--I should, from necessity, have continued to regard the whole series with the same doubt I held at the sight of the first two crosses".

Now let us turn to your statement that Judd proposed that they may have been created by some mentally incompetent person. In the letter Judd starts off by saying, "I am still at a loss to explain the paradox of your interesting discoveries". At the conclusion of the letter Judd suggests, "Your solution of the mystery might lie in a search of the local mission records for trace of some mentally incompetent individual with a flair for old Latin and the wars of antiquity" What is important here is that Judd never said that it was his opinion that he believed a mentally incompetent person made the artifacts he was only suggesting a possible answer. Furthermore it is clear from his statement regarding the paradox of the discovery he really can`t explain it.

In addition can you explain how a mentally challenged person created these artifacts and also planted them on Silverbell Road? Keep in mind the following comments by Hardaker:

An artifact found under a 50-year old Mesquite tree provides a maximum date of ca. 1874. Also, the artifacts were scattered over a 2500-foot area on an eroding terrace, and then covered up all together, buried between three to six feet below the modern surface. There was absolutely no evidence of pits dug to plant the pieces under the surface; this is verified in the photographs and by multiple professional accounts during the discoveries, including comments by Dr. Neil Judd who personally excavated two of the pieces; Judd was a nephew of UAz’s Dr. Byron Cummings, and a Smithsonian archaeologist working at Chaco Canyon. To do all that earthmoving, an army begins to make sense.

Or are you suggesting that we are dealing with an army of mentally challenged persons?



starman 1


 

starman 1 said:
Or are you suggesting that we are dealing with an army of mentally challenged persons?



starman 1


[/COLOR]
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:laughing7:

I think there is already a thread on those "objects"

I for one am still interested in the possibility of that missing Stone.
 

The Way

Hello Hal,

Perhaps we now have a better understanding of Judd`s position. At least he will not be manipulated to serve someone`s personal agenda. If this is how you react to having your statements challenged how could you handle a debate on fundamental issues? The time for that has passed. We gave the store away in a previous thread. The lack of dialogue was simply amazing.

Somero,

You are right sir.

Frank,

Enjoyed the tv series. Good luck on wherever you take this thread.

Joe,

Just for the record Cibola and Calalus are the same destination. The seven temples, still a few in the bushes. Picture of the library of Oz? Joe, this operates at a little different level than what the folks did in the eastern part of the range. Maybe you could give Hal some reference material on the artifacts. A copy of the Bent work would be a good starting point. Pretty basic mistakes in his comments.

May the stars keep you gentlemen safe.


Starman
 

Not Peralta said:
TO ALL. HAVE SOME:coffee2:
Treasure stories have always fascinated people through out the years,They have brought out the best and the worst in people.
Between the 1850's and the 1950's there was a trend,this is the time when Treasure stories and legends were born.
There's no better way to get some ones adrenaline running than telling a good treasure story.
There's an old saying that at first you don't succeed try,try again.
First they were Lead, next they were Stone. whats the chances of two Treasure Stories containing writings and Images appearing in
the same state, under almost Identical situations when found,only a few years apart. The lettering and Images are almost Identical.
Before I continue, please take time to study the two stories and objects, of the Tucson artifacts and the stone tablets. this may
answer a lot of questions concerning them. thank you .NP:cat:
Click to expand...
:occasion14:I am glad this got the conversation of two controversial treasure stories going again.thank you.:hello2:NP:cat:
 

Hal Croves said:
Not sure that I follow your logic on this. Sometimes a story is only as good as it's source. Where would you be in your research if Cubfan64 had not posted those links? Before he posted, you wrote that you found nothing on the web about the treasure chest stone. Correct? But you now have the research and access to the source, and it didn't cost you anything. And you now have a few great contacts if you want to delve further into that research. Honestly, would you have embraced that information with no names attached to it? Revealing a source if possible is almost always a good thing.

You have obviously formed an opinion on the stone maps and the person who you think made them but, at the end of the day, that's all you really have. It's all anyone can have. And opinions concerning the stone maps are numerous, varied, and sometimes hard to digest. Even my own.

Remaining neutral is no easy thing but that's what it takes to tell a fair and balanced story. I hope that you remember that when doing your interviews. Good luck with your research and video!
Click to expand...

cactusjumper said:
NP,

Actually there are people who have made careers out of researching the trail systems in this country. It's an interesting subject for sure.

Take care,

Joe
Click to expand...

UncleMatt said:
I must apologize, I post under a variety of topics on T-net, and in many threads I often have to tolerate the most outlandish claims imaginable. It tends to wear on you after awhile when you are trying to have factually based discussions about topics, and people start making claims that are obviously not rooted in reality, but instead rooted in what people want to think or fantasize. Such things tend to divert the conversation and topic off course. I admit I have a low tolerance for such things, and find them very annoying. However, I should not allow those people to cause me to over react in general. So if anyone was insulted by my previous comments about people making baseless claims to feel important, sorry about that.
Click to expand...

Hal Croves said:
Hello Starman,
Seems to me that you are splitting hairs. What is the difference between an opinion and someone proposing a possible answer? Either way, this is sgtfda's thread and I am not going to be responsible for derailing it. If you want to have a conversation about the objects and your ideas, start a thread on the topic and if you really want me to, I will contribute. A word of caution here. I am a prick when I feel people, especially good people, have been used and manipulated to serve another's personal agenda. Those feelings that you left me with will most likely carry over into my posts. Are you sure you want to have a public & honest conversation?

Time is short Starman. It seems to me that you could put an end to all the doubt with one kind gesture. But it never comes and I doubt that it ever will.

Sorry for the distraction Frank.
Click to expand...

Hal

Total over reacting there buddy, Scott Wolter already looked at them and says there real. Now what more proof does one need then that.

Wrmickel1
 

starman 1 said:
Hello Hal,

Perhaps we now have a better understanding of Judd`s position. At least he will not be manipulated to serve someone`s personal agenda. If this is how you react to having your statements challenged how could you handle a debate on fundamental issues? The time for that has passed. We gave the store away in a previous thread. The lack of dialogue was simply amazing.

Somero,

You are right sir.

Frank,

Enjoyed the tv series. Good luck on wherever you take this thread.

Joe,

Just for the record Cibola and Calalus are the same destination. The seven temples, still a few in the bushes. Picture of the library of Oz? Joe, this operates at a little different level than what the folks did in the eastern part of the range. Maybe you could give Hal some reference material on the artifacts. A copy of the Bent work would be a good starting point. Pretty basic mistakes in his comments.

May the stars keep you gentlemen safe.


Starman
Click to expand...

Like I said, I will just buy the book. Never expected anything from the Nevada Corp, never will.

Joe Ribaudo
 

Hal you've finally done it!

You have explained the essence of a Stone Map Engraver!

"Some mentally incompetent individual with a flair for old Witches and the seedy south side bars of antiquity":laughing7:
 

Scott Wolter is a talking head on a tv show, and anything he claims I tend to think the exact opposite must be true.
 

Last edited:
The threat of the unknown.have more:coffee2::coffee2:
Not only are the stories almost the same in discovery,but,over the years,now that we can look back,
the same strategy has been used to try and discredit both, the lead artifacts,and the stone tablets,
because it does't fit in their theory,or strategy.or comprehension . NP:cat:
 

Hal Croves said:
Honestly, I am exhausted and unfortunately don't have time to waste on Oz or the lead trinkets. My final word on the objects.... What if they were never uncovered? Would there still be an Oz to write about? Would there be a Starman1?

Life is short and the meter running.
Click to expand...

Hal,

Those Lead Trinkets as I recall were discovered near the old Mission Ruins of Catarina under an old smelter chimney. The stone maps could be the maps showing where these trinkets were buried. The only links they may have too the stone maps I can see is the trinkets were discovered north of the Rio-Santa Cruz.

I've been to the site of this discovery near the freeway and held the artifacts in my hands as they were housed at the State Museum here in Tucson many years ago. If you asked they would let you hold the objects but not take photo's, with white gloves on of course.

Looking, touching and feeling the artifacts in my hand only gave me the impression they were very old. Like the stone maps they are merely a curiosity as there is no explanation that suits the Archeological community so they simply write it off as being a hoax or a religious fanatic cult.

I find this happens often with academics when they have no real idea as to an objects origins or any rational explanation they can digest.

Are these two real?

If I had a an old Snake Oil wagon I could make money going around the country showing these odd lead & stone curiosities along with the "Thing" and Stone Maps researchers shrunken heads.:laughing7:

They are unattached to any real historical connections but real artifacts never the less I believe.
 

Not Peralta said:
The threat of the unknown.have more:coffee2::coffee2:
Not only are the stories almost the same in discovery,but,over the years,now that we can look back,
the same strategy has been used to try and discredit both, the lead artifacts,and the stone tablets,
because it does't fit in their theory,or strategy.or comprehension . NP:cat:
Click to expand...

Why make that assumption, that this is "beyond their comprehension"? That is assuming your debating partners have a lower intellect, incapable of grasping the concepts, when many of these good people have shown that they are indeed highly intelligent, well read and have done plenty of research. <NOT referring to myself in that group, I am still learning things every day> From the other side of that fence of belief, it appears that the supporters are not willing to examine things critically, and while this may be a great strategy or method for hunting a lost treasure, these artifacts (stone maps and Tucson relics) are already found and exist, they can be examined and studied.

I wonder how much mistaken ID is going on, in this Calalus/stone maps supporters set of theories? There was a great civilization existing in Arizona in ancient times, the Hohokam, and they constructed great canal works and irrigation, besides real cities. Are these being mistaken for Roman/Samaritan ruins and a Calalus story? If there really were such a 'Roman' civilization existing side by side with the cities of the Hohokam, why are there no evidences of any interaction between them? Coins, loan-words, even spices, foods, or human diseases tend to get exchanged between two foreign peoples when they come in contact, even if a hostile and intermittent contact. How many 'Roman' coins have turned up in Hohokam sites?

Sorry for the partly off-topic post, this probably belongs in the Calalus thread.
Oroblanco

More coffee?
:coffee2: :coffee:
 

Hal Croves said:
Here is a fact.

Life Magazine, one of the most influential publications in the world, in an article written by one of the smartest authors in their Rolodex, covered the story of the stone maps. Just getting their attention was a huge accomplishment.

The story behind the story is not mine to tell but it's absolutely fascinating as is the author who, IMO, is about as top shelf as it gets.

Mr. Davis - if you are reading this and don't already have that backstory, it honestly belongs in your care.
Click to expand...

Are you talking about Travis Marlowe, a.k.a., Clarence Mitchell?
 

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