Legend of the Stone Maps

[Azquester]

The bar has already been set quite high for telling the treasure chest stone and chimney stories and I remember no real conclusions could be drawn. Unfortunately, only some newly discovered revelation will make any difference to those who care. No easy task.

I'd still like to know whom of the family members were telling this and why?

Was it Johnny Lee or Kenneth?

Not to hard to call them Hal, I believe they both live in Texas and aren't that hard to reach. I can PM the location's too you?

It just might qualify you in the eyes of the great Librarian the holder of all do it yourself knowledge in this grand data base of useless Map debunking dribble.
Once you get your answer's say you have it and tease us all with it but never post it. In the end just say walk the right of way and go do it yourself like I do. That is if it's truly meaningless Stone Maps dribble. Other wise if it was meaningful it might be worth posting so why would you share?
You were here during the hashing of this earlier exchange of hashed out theories about this and your sharing that knowledge with us?
Just give us clues and circles we can run.
Keeps us on our toes so we never get answers or sources of the second hand innuendo's like: "I know um to be honest folk and they's a telling nothing but the facts as they see fit!" But, we can't mention names just dates and places we had lunch five years ago! Blowing Second Hand Smoke we call it back in MO.

Take it for what it is you heard it on earlier posts and know more about it then I do so in my case Hal your the expert!

So get to blowing some smoke lets hear what you got about all this?

In a nut shell.()

 

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[UncleMatt]

Hal, not to teach, many people post their baseless opinions simply to try to get people to accept them as factual. Its how they get their jollies. It makes them feel important.

I agree with you about sourceless claims, as well as the green tea.

 

[deducer]

Dave,

Thanks.

There are some folks out there who believe every word I say or write is BS. Most of my friends know that I have developed some very knowledgeable sources. I don't mind quoting them, but won't always ask their permission to name them. If I don't do that, it won't happen.

Thanks again,

Joe

Joe,

The issue here is that in the past, you have often requested others including me, to cite "sources" for various assertions or statements made.

If some posters refuse to reveal their sources, for whatever reason, will you extend the same unquestioned courtesy to them as you expect for yourself when you refuse to reveal your "sources"?

 

[UncleMatt]

We all need to hold ourselves to the same standard of proof we expect from others. If you can't name a source for whatever reason, then expect for it not to be given as much weight as if you had named a verifiable source for it.

 

[sgtfda]

I've found you can pick up information from the whispers. Little tidbits you hear or read. Your very foolish if you don't look out for this information. Insulting those that give a little here and there only discourages that person from giving more. I've learned a lot from Joes whispers over the years.
Think about it. Waltz did the same in his old age. A little info here and there. Many are still trying to put that all together. Sort of like fishing. You never know what is on the end of that line. If your not a good fisherman you need a new hobby. Treasure hunting is not for you.

 

[RG1976]

Everyone complaining about sources is so....wasteful.

The idea behind the stone maps doesn't even require a source - outside of the guy who made them. And even with him dead - he still left plenty behind.

 

[Hal Croves]

I've found you can pick up information from the whispers. Little tidbits you hear or read. Your very foolish if you don't look out for this information. Insulting those that give a little here and there only discourages that person from giving more. I've learned a lot from Joes whispers over the years.
Think about it. Waltz did the same in his old age. A little info here and there. Many are still trying to put that all together. Sort of like fishing. You never know what is on the end of that line. If your not a good fisherman you need a new hobby. Treasure hunting is not for you.

Yes, all information is precious, even nonsense has some intrinsic value. You must of had a change of heart recently?That's super fantastic!

I was happy to read this post because it explains the motivation behind many of your comments. Thank you for being honest.

I am not sure that comparing Joe's whispers to Jacob's tales is such a good thing for Joe.

 

[Hal Croves]

Everyone complaining about sources is so....wasteful.

The idea behind the stone maps doesn't even require a source - outside of the guy who made them. And even with him dead - he still left plenty behind.

Not sure that I follow your logic on this. Sometimes a story is only as good as it's source. Where would you be in your research if Cubfan64 had not posted those links? Before he posted, you wrote that you found nothing on the web about the treasure chest stone. Correct? But you now have the research and access to the source, and it didn't cost you anything. And you now have a few great contacts if you want to delve further into that research. Honestly, would you have embraced that information with no names attached to it? Revealing a source if possible is almost always a good thing.

You have obviously formed an opinion on the stone maps and the person who you think made them but, at the end of the day, that's all you really have. It's all anyone can have. And opinions concerning the stone maps are numerous, varied, and sometimes hard to digest. Even my own.

Remaining neutral is no easy thing but that's what it takes to tell a fair and balanced story. I hope that you remember that when doing your interviews. Good luck with your research and video!

 

[cactusjumper]

We all need to hold ourselves to the same standard of proof we expect from others. If you can't name a source for whatever reason, then expect for it not to be given as much weight as if you had named a verifiable source for it.

Matt,

I don't expect anyone to blindly believe what I say or write, although I believe some do. I have said many time that you should do your own verification on everything. Along those lines, I often double check my own statements of fact. There are times when I catch my own mistake.

I always ask for a source, but don't insist. Many of my friends give me their sources names, with the understanding that I won't reveal them. Happens all the time. Steve Creager gave me information that I could not repeat. I kept that faith for a number of years......after his death.

I don't resent folks not believing what I write or say. With the people who count with me, we have developed a mutual trust. It takes years, and I am aware that I can kill that trust with a few careless words. Careless word from Joe Ribaudo, who would think it?

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

"I am not sure that comparing Joe's whispers to Jacob's tales is such a good thing for Joe."

I think I can live with that, but it will probably leave a mark.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Not Peralta]

TO ALL. HAVE SOME
Treasure stories have always fascinated people through out the years,They have brought out the best and the worst in people.
Between the 1850's and the 1950's there was a trend,this is the time when Treasure stories and legends were born.
There's no better way to get some ones adrenaline running than telling a good treasure story.
There's an old saying that at first you don't succeed try,try again.
First they were Lead, next they were Stone. whats the chances of two Treasure Stories containing writings and Images appearing in
the same state, under almost Identical situations when found,only a few years apart. The lettering and Images are almost Identical.
Before I continue, please take time to study the two stories and objects, of the Tucson artifacts and the stone tablets. this may
answer a lot of questions concerning them. thank you .NP

 

[cactusjumper]

TO ALL. HAVE SOME
Treasure stories have always fascinated people through out the years,They have brought out the best and the worst in people.
Between the 1850's and the 1950's there was a trend,this is the time when Treasure stories and legends were born.
There's no better way to get some ones adrenaline running than telling a good treasure story.
There's an old saying that at first you don't succeed try,try again.
First they were Lead, next they were Stone. whats the chances of two Treasure Stories containing writings and Images appearing in
the same state, under almost Identical situations when found,only a few years apart. The lettering and Images are almost Identical.
Before I continue, please take time to study the two stories and objects, of the Tucson artifacts and the stone tablets. this may
answer a lot of questions concerning them. thank you .NP

NP,

I doubt many people have studied the Tucson artifacts as deeply as I have. The only answers, these days, are the ones that come from Ben Davis and his merry men, and an occasional woman. Here is his latest chapter:

"Seems most of the discussions focus on recent events. My interest in that period is quite limited.

Right now the legend of Cibola fascinates me. Trying to work it into a class. Seven cities of Gold. I believe what they were actually after was seven temples that held relics and treasures from the time of the ancients till the time of Calalus. The most important being Oz. If this is true it explains the seven temples that are mentioned in several texts from the library.

This business about the Maps is interesting. Folks still going round and round with who did it and why. Maybe the place to start is the trail systems that are reflected on the Maps. The main trail is over 10000 years old, the rest is just graffiti.

Who knows maybe the recent authors were trying to deceive or simply paint a picture yet they stumbled on a fundamental truth. That truth makes the trail maps the most important document to ever be produced regarding the range."

The man does know how to spin a yarn. He is the consummate historian, past and present. If something new comes into the legends, he knows how to weave it into Calalus......and even farther back.

I remain in awe of his abilities and imagination. I will absolutely buy the book, but will pass on the class.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

TO ALL. HAVE SOME
Treasure stories have always fascinated people through out the years,They have brought out the best and the worst in people.
Between the 1850's and the 1950's there was a trend,this is the time when Treasure stories and legends were born.
There's no better way to get some ones adrenaline running than telling a good treasure story.
There's an old saying that at first you don't succeed try,try again.
First they were Lead, next they were Stone. whats the chances of two Treasure Stories containing writings and Images appearing in
the same state, under almost Identical situations when found,only a few years apart. The lettering and Images are almost Identical.
Before I continue, please take time to study the two stories and objects, of the Tucson artifacts and the stone tablets. this may
answer a lot of questions concerning them. thank you .NP

I can't wait for you to finish this thought.
I agree with most of what you have written but am having difficulty with the things in red.

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,
Time is a cruel mistress and the fact that she now keeps you out of the range somehow feels unjust to me. I know that I am not alone in this belief.

Hal,

I appreciate those kind sentiments, but have enough memories and pictures to keep me warm on a myriad of cold nights.
Tom tried to get me to make one more ride into the range a few years ago. He, Bob and myself would just sit around a campfire and tell......stories. It killed me to say no to that invite, but I knew the pain that would follow such a ride.

We did manage to get together for a campout in the Bradshaw's, but that left the ghosts of the Superstition's at home. Like me, they don't travel all that well. On the other hand, we got to share it with the wives. I believe every woman there was enraptured with Bob's stories. All of the guys eyes were pretty wide as well. Tom has written his story , Bob needs to Write his own.

Just a little taste to show that my life goes on.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

I think that one well known archeologist described the maker of the Tucson objects to perfection. Can't find the quote but something to do with mental imbalance.

Hal,

That could be true, but he has created a story that has legs. In the history of mankind, that will also leave a mark.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal

Why you believe the " well known archeologist " has a mental imbalance issue ?
Don't tell me because don't fit with your believes .

No, the archeologist I am writing about, someone who looked at the Tucson objects, believed that the person who made them was mentally unsound. I think that his evaluation was spot on.

I have no beliefs about the lead objects other than them being the work of a mental defective.
Wait, I think that translates to "artist" in Greek? : )

 

[Not Peralta]

Joe, the ancient trail system is just that, ancient, Its one of the great mysteries of the southwest,In my time I enjoyed it,no matter were it took me,there was truth in it.
ben is ben, he will be good as long as he has an audience, but, its good to listen for a little bit of truth,no matter how small it may be.
Hal, I am not going to go into detail now,only will say over many years analysis of objects from both finds have thoroughly been analyzed.do your own analysis, and draw your own conclusions.
this is some thing I have wanted to share. I will finish,when I think the conversations are over.thank you.NP

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe, the ancient trail system is just that, ancient, Its one of the great mysteries of the southwest,In my time I enjoyed it,no matter were it took me,there was truth in it.
ben is ben, he will be good as long as he has an audience, but, its good to listen for a little bit of truth,no matter how small it may be.
Hal, I am not going to go into detail now,only will say over many years analysis of objects from both finds have thoroughly been analyzed.do your own analysis, and draw your own conclusions.
this is some thing I have wanted to share. I will finish,when I think the conversations are over.thank you.NP

NP,

If you are talking about an ancient trail in the Superstition's, they all started out as game trails, same as the rest of the country. Native Americans used those game trails as their highways. White man came along and laid down proper wagon and then concrete highways.

People in, or around the Superstition Mountains are recent occupants, recent in the overall scheme of time. No evidence of Ben's claims is available to the rest of us.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Not Peralta]

NP,

If you are talking about an ancient trail in the Superstition's, they all started out as game trails, same as the rest of the country. Native Americans used those game trails as their highways. White man came along and laid down proper wagon and then concrete highways.

People in, or around the Superstition Mountains are recent occupants, recent in the overall scheme of time. No evidence of Ben's claims is available to the rest of us.

Take care,

Joe

Joe, your confusing what I am saying, not all these ancient trails were started by animal or game, No one knows how some got started, it doesn't matter what ben says , this has nothing to do
with ben. np

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe, your confusing what I am saying, not all these ancient trails were started by animal or game, No one knows how some got started, it doesn't matter what ben says , this has nothing to do
with ben. np

NP,

Actually there are people who have made careers out of researching the trail systems in this country. It's an interesting subject for sure.

Take care,

Joe