Legend of the Stone Maps

[cactusjumper]

Just so it doesn't disappear, here is the mind reading quote:

In his article, "Lost Jesuit Treasure: Fact or Fancy?" in the August 1962 issue of Desert Magazine, Polzer closes with the following words:

And the simple truth is: Jesuit treasure is myth.

He doesn't just mean Arizona, but anywhere in the New World.
(Bold emphasis by Joe)

This flies in the face of major discoveries such as at Castillo Hill and various legends including Sacambaya, Tayopa, Virgin de Guadalupe, San Ramon, Purisma Concepcion, San Pedro, Salerno; the list goes on and on.

Many posters including Mike (Gollum), Roy (Oroblanco), Joseph (Tropical Tramp), infosponge, etc. etc. (and I) all have, on our own, and independently of each other, reached the same conclusion: the Jesuits did hoard and conceal treasure. I, personally, have been shown proof and have seen with my own eyes that such a thing does exist.

Are all of us wrong? I don't think so.

So with all that in mind, yes, Polzer is a revisionist historian, period.

In that he was also a Jesuit, I would not expect him to be otherwise.

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[wrmickel1]

Joe, the weather is the storm, "Not Berry" but placed in Polzer's writing's by himself, Such as Jesuit Treasure is a Myth, but he also has lines such as,in the invent a Treasure is found it would be a great thing to study. Now that sounds like a expert who's covering he's own Expertise, "JUST IN CASE" and he's pretty scant on symbol meanings, most likely because there meanings were lost when the first order was destroyed, He was no Mike "hawkeye" Pickett:

Wrmickel1

 

[sdcfia]

yes i think that too, just trying to fig how the name peralta
got attached to the stone maps

We might have a better idea when - maybe I should say if - the "Pegleg ground map", and maybe other maps are revealed. The ground map is alleged to be the complete map from which Travis carved the "partial stone maps" for reasons not yet fully explained. Maybe someday we'll get that story. Until then, all we can surmise is that Travis was certainly being deceptive during his stewardship of the family secrets. That doesn't bode well for the folks who wandered the hills for decades believing in the stone maps.

The stone horse map - the most interesting - does display, among several things, "el cabollo de santa fe", and "norte del rio", along with some enigmatic symbols and what appear to be traces of maybe two rivers? "norte del rio" refers of course to the Rio Grande, and "santa fe" is seemingly self-evident too. I showed in an earlier post that the possible river traces very closely match the Rios Grande and Gila on a scaled overlay of a New Mexico map. Wherever the horse map originated - Pegleg, Travis or elsewhere - it seems to indicate a New Mexico connection.

There are plenty of rumors that the Spanish were looking for a monumental treasure when Onate followed the Rio Grande to near the San Juan pueblo, and named the first settlement "San Juan de los Caballeros" (The Knights of St. John) and established the first settlement there in 1580. Pedro de Peralta moved the capital to its final location, Santa Fe, in 1607. If you dare think out of the box, you may realize that the Knights of St John are later kin to the Knights Templar, who are up to their eyeballs in a huge religious/treasure mystery in the south of France, where a famous clue includes the phrase "by the cross and this horse of God", found on an old parchment in Rennes le Chateau. Notwithstanding the spelling error, "el cabollo de santa fe" translates to "the horse of the holy faith" - a similar/same idea. All weird stuff, and seemingly not a very obvious fit with the other Tumlinson carved stones - at least what we know so far.

Somebody, at some time, seems to have linked the ground map to the so-called "Peralta mines" in the Superstitions. At least to the "trail map" stones. As I recall, the evidence that there were in fact Mexican Peraltas mining in the Superstitions is pretty thin, based on some claims from California Peraltas, I believe. The Reavis ordeal may be some kind of an ugly connection to the Peralta mining rumors too. Bottom line: Pegleg and his maps is whom and what we need to know about. If we don't get a straight story from the promised new revelations, the whole shebang will remain shrouded in doubt and suspicion.

 

[gollum]

yes i think that too, just trying to fig how the name peralta
got attached to the stone maps

The fact that the Peraltas were famously associated with the LDM and the Supers, and the Stone Maps were supposedly found just South of the range, and also the two most prominent names of the Peralta Family (PEDRO and MIGUEL) are carved on the Horse/Priest Stone would be the main reason for the association.


Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut.................... most people knowledgeable about them just call them The Stone Maps. Also, the names Pedro and Miguel are two of the most common Hispanic Names on Earth.


WRMICKEL1,


You would do well not to dismiss Father Polzer SJ's historical work. Not a lot of people more qualified than him on the subject. Google his name and you will see. Most of what I know about Jesuit Rules and Regulations come from his writing. Many of the irregularities in Ecclesiastical Precepts, keeping letters a secret, writing them in code, and destroying letters after reading them are all things I learned from Father Polzer's Book "Rules and Precepts of Jesuit Missions in Northwestern New Spain". Now, that said, Father Polzer and I could not be further apart on the subject of Jesuit wealth and mining activities. Polzer himself wrote an article that I found very interesting. He talks about how Jesuits are taught that they can't do everything. They should pick one thing at a time, and commit themselves fully to the subject. If you look at Jesuits throughout the ages, you will see that this is true. From Athanasius Kircher to Father Polzer SJ. Father Polzer took it as his mission to ensure Father Kino's Canonization. He immersed himself in Colonial Spanish Jesuit History in the New World. He was the person most responsible finding Father Kino's burial site at Dolores. Where I have an issue with him is that in order to ensure Kino's Canonization, he had to quash any thoughts of Jesuits of his time breaking rules and getting illegal wealth. So by virtue of that, any time someone would ask him about a gold or silver bar, he would say that it was a hoax. It was a hoax because he said since the Jesuits never had any wealth, then it couldn't possibly be real. HAHAHA Anybody ever see the Jesuit Curia or The Vatican?

Mike

 

[wrmickel1]

So Mike,
What I take from your post is Father Polzer lied or with held information to Canonization Kino and to establish a connection to the old Jesuit order with the new. So now they can claim there one of the oldest and established orders on earth. Well at least they stuck to the Jesuits order, Deception.

 

[gollum]

So Mike,
What I take from your post is Father Polzer lied or with held information to Canonization Kino and to establish a connection to the old Jesuit order with the new. So now they can claim there one of the oldest and established orders on earth. Well at least they stuck to the Jesuits order, Deception.

Actually, I have to say that I have never/and still don't believe in the "Evil Jesuit" thing. We know that at the time, Jesuits were involved in many intrigues around the world. For the longest time, the whole Jesuit Suppression was blamed on Minister Pombal, who hated the Jesuits. He was involved in their suppression in both Portugal and Spain. But, what about all the other countries around the world where they were suppressed? Japan? China? Philippines? France? Sicily? Two Parmas? But you also have to look at the times in which the Jesuits lived and worked. The Jesuit Order embodied everything that was "Old School Catholicism". They supported the Inquisitions under Torquemada. They were 100% against "The Enlightened Movement", which they saw as a watered down form of Catholicism. The central power of the Church was being threatened by both the Enlightened Movement and the splitting apart of Europe and the movement away from the Church. Everything they did, they did for what they saw as the greater good of preserving the power and influence of the Church worldwide. Many times, they were likened to hand to hand fighting in a big mud sty. First, England had given the boot to the Catholic Church because they would not sanction his divorce from Anne Boleyn, and formed the Anglican Church which let him do anything he wanted. For that, you get "The Gunpowder Plot" of 1604. Later, in Spain, King Charles III espoused the Enlightened Movement which the Jesuits fought against. They whispered all throughout Spanish Lands that Charles III was not a "REAL" Catholic King, and that he didn't deserve to be King of Spain. Then, in the Spanish Riots of 1766, Jesuits were caught red handed giving money to the rioters so they could continue rioting. That was the last straw the led to their suppression.

All that part said, they risked (and many times lost) life and limb traveling throughout the world spreading the word of God amongst the heathens around the world. They gave to the poor. They founded most of the Earth Sciences we know today. They were the preeminent mathematicians and cartographers of their day. There is absolutely no denying that without the Jesuits, this world would be a much lesser place.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Actually, I have to say that I have never/and still don't believe in the "Evil Jesuit" thing. We know that at the time, Jesuits were involved in many intrigues around the world. For the longest time, the whole Jesuit Suppression was blamed on Minister Pombal, who hated the Jesuits. He was involved in their suppression in both Portugal and Spain. But, what about all the other countries around the world where they were suppressed? Japan? China? Philippines? France? Sicily? Two Parmas? But you also have to look at the times in which the Jesuits lived and worked. The Jesuit Order embodied everything that was "Old School Catholicism". They supported the Inquisitions under Torquemada. They were 100% against "The Enlightened Movement", which they saw as a watered down form of Catholicism. The central power of the Church was being threatened by both the Enlightened Movement and the splitting apart of Europe and the movement away from the Church. Everything they did, they did for what they saw as the greater good of preserving the power and influence of the Church worldwide. Many times, they were likened to hand to hand fighting in a big mud sty. First, England had given the boot to the Catholic Church because they would not sanction his divorce from Anne Boleyn, and formed the Anglican Church which let him do anything he wanted. For that, you get "The Gunpowder Plot" of 1604. Later, in Spain, King Charles III espoused the Enlightened Movement which the Jesuits fought against. They whispered all throughout Spanish Lands that Charles III was not a "REAL" Catholic King, and that he didn't deserve to be King of Spain. Then, in the Spanish Riots of 1766, Jesuits were caught red handed giving money to the rioters so they could continue rioting. That was the last straw the led to their suppression.

All that part said, they risked (and many times lost) life and limb traveling throughout the world spreading the word of God amongst the heathens around the world. They gave to the poor. They founded most of the Earth Sciences we know today. They were the preeminent mathematicians and cartographers of their day. There is absolutely no denying that without the Jesuits, this world would be a much lesser place.

Mike

Substitute "Spain", "England", "USA", then "China" for the word "God" in your Jesuit summary, and you wind up with a similar synopsis for Earth's political history since the Renaissance and for the coming future. At least the politicos don't mask their intentions - if I'm going to be robbed, I'd rather have it happen at gunpoint rather than with disingenuous guile.

 

[wrmickel1]

Surely sounds like a evil group of thugs to me. mask the evil with the church, What a concept, NO! Tell me its not so.
Gods not evil, Its the churches power that will he's word that are.
So not to believe in the Evil Jesuit thing, just don't cut it to me anyway. Survive by deception until there luck ran out.

Wrmickel1

 

[Hal Croves]

yes i think that too, just trying to fig how the name peralta
got attached to the stone maps

I am unfamiliar with its history however, the Peralta Tesoro Map would have to be explained if it actually dates to mid 1800's.

If it does, then the answer is obvious I would think.
We just need the map's discovery story.

 

[wrmickel1]

I am unfamiliar with its history however, the Peralta Tesoro Map would have to be explained if it actually dates to mid 1800's.

If it does, then the answer is obvious I would think.
We just need the map's discovery story.

Hal,

I,m pretty sure the Peralta Tesoro Map was a fair attempt to copy the Stone Maps, But even if the paper/hide its drawn on is legitimate and dates 1850 or so, How do you know that the person who made it wasn't looking at the Stone Maps before they were buried and found later by Travis. And why didn't they draw the others too. Or at least made a exact copy, There are a lot of differences between the two.

Wrmickel1

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I,m pretty sure the Peralta Tesoro Map was a fair attempt to copy the Stone Maps, But even if the paper/hide its drawn on is legitimate and dates 1850 or so, How do you know that the person who made it wasn't looking at the Stone Maps before they were buried and found later by Travis. And why didn't they draw the others too. Or at least made a exact copy, There are a lot of differences between the two.

Wrmickel1

Personally, I have never believed the discovery story as it was told.

If the stone maps were traced and if that tracing (the Peralta Tesoro Mapa) dates to the mid 1800's, then all the conversations about Travis carving the Trail Stones are over. There are several important differences between the two maps (stone & paper) yes but, for the most part, they are quite similar in scale and design. So, if the Peralta Tesoro Mapa can be professionally dated to circa 1847, then the argument for a Peralta/stone map connection has been made. However, that still does not establish a Peralta connection to the Superstitions.

Actually, it doesn't need to.

That connection has already been established with the Burbridge Map.

 

[wrmickel1]

Hal,

I don't believe they were traced, then they'd be the same. The Tesoro map is different with side trails. Now how would Travis know to make more maps, ohh with there own theme's. Just don't add up.

Wrmickel1

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I don't believe they were traced, then they'd be the same. The Tesoro map is different with side trails. Now how would Travis know to make more maps, ohh with there own theme's. Just don't add up.

Wrmickel1

Unfortunately, nothing about this legend adds up.

If you look at the two maps side by side, we can see that they both have the same basic information with few minor visual changes. A side trail, a few different symbols in the corresponding locations, and the obvious title. But for the most part the maps are nearly identical. So much so that if the PTM is tested and dated to the 1800's, then it is a logical conclusion that the stone maps are either a later copy of the PTM or, an original Peralta creation.

Its still difficult for me to ignore the fact that others in the area were involved in their own treasure hunt and also following a set of stone maps years before Travis. Was it the same set of stones? I can't say for sure either way but there is a decent chance that they were. IMO.

Matthew Roberts, Greg Davis,

Do either of you have any insight that you would be willing to share regarding the Peralta Tesoro Mapa? Its history, the size, the material it is printed on? Anything at all to help us understand it. Thank you in advance.

 

[Azquester]

I believe the paper map leads to the stone map and the stone map leads to a rock map and the rock map leads to a pair of gold scissors.

Or, another map buried somewhere. These stone maps must have been buried. Kenworthy talks of finding stone maps buried near cut and banded Saguaro Cactus. Those must be the final maps near a treasure or mine. So just maybe there's a set of maps out there still uncovered!

Instead of looking for a mine or treasure we should be looking for the resting place of the final stone maps!

Piece of cake right?

 

[markmar]

Bill

Watch this movie . Is very interesting . Shows the steps and how skilled would be someone to find a treasure .

 

[Hal Croves]

Bill

Watch this movie . Is very interesting . Shows the steps and how skilled would be someone to find a treasure .

View attachment 1203640

In his youth Nick C. was a great actor and Vally Girls was absolutely brilliant but, the National Treasure movies are about as bad as Hollywood gets. Read a book, join a treasure hunting forum but don't put too much faith in learning anything from that movie. JMO

 

[markmar]

Hal

The movie is a fiction and was not to learn something , but to see as an example how difficult is to find a treasure when the clues ( the signs ) send you from a place to another ( like the " travel on to the next sign " practice ) untill the end point .
The movie is like what Bill said about the maps .

 

[markmar]

Ryan has indicated that the manuscript has a photo of a "different" Horse/Priest stone, on which the "box" word appears where the "COAZON" is on the stone we are familiar with. He has supplied a censored copy of the description, which I posted previously in this thread, where the word appears thus (box). as typed by Travis.
That's the reason for the jump in this discussion.

Regards:SH.

Wayne , we missed you .
Now serious , this is the real " BOX " shape .

 

[sailaway]

Marius this is the real box

 

[somehiker]

Might be just another one of Travis' attempts to "throw people off", as he was known to do.
But I think a "box" or chest or crate of some kind would be an important and exciting discovery if there is one to be found out there somewhere.
The instructions list a series of tangibles....... a dangerous "trail", 18 "places", a "map", and a "heart" or "box" ....none of which would be natural rock formations IMO. In fact, one needs to find the map before the "box".
So what do you think might be in this "box" ?