Legend of the Stone Maps

deducer said:
To go back to the beginning: Mike mentioned he thought that Kino had been as far north as the Salt River, a suggestion you immediately criticized, and when he offered you an excerpt from the History of Arizona and New Mexico, you dismissed it, saying based on what you read, Kino didn’t go north of the Gila. Sorry but that doesn't hold water with me.

He furthermore showed you an excerpt from Kino’s own diary to show you that there was a lot more going on than meets the eye to which you responded dismissively and added the following insult:



Which is ludicrous to me because I hold neither Bolton or Polzer to be any sort of “final” authority on the Jesuits, a proposition, where Polzer is concerned, I find equal to holding a fox as the final authority on the history of a henhouse. The fox is of course always going to say the henhouse has always been empty.

And as for Bolton, funny that you should hold his “research skills” in high esteem because his colleagues did not. Bolton, in fact, was not even an expert on Jesuit history by any means, his specialty was Spanish-American history- find below a partial critique of him from a biography by Russell Magnaghi:

View attachment 1199015

And it is in this context that I brought up Campos, he being a contemporary of Kino’s. That Campos had gone as far north as the White Mountains which is way north of the Gila no matter how you put it, but Kino? Despite Kino’s being known as a fearless explorer who covered incredible distances, the important thing is, according to you, that there is no recorded account of him having gone north of the Gila, so therefore he never did.

And as Mike said, if Kino’s diaries is the final word on every single thing he did, why is it then full of ciphers? Why is one of them unaccounted for?

Instead of responding to any of those points or questions, you just took off on a tangent and zeroed on what in your mind was some sort of “mistake” i made, and gloated over it.

Did that juvenile maneuver really add anything to the discussion? I don't think so.

So when you leave the sandbox, perhaps you could respond to those questions or points intelligently, instead of dismissing them when they don’t fit your… “accepted history.”
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My apologies Mike, it was deducer that made the comment about Russell Magnaghi. The two of you are starting to meld into one argument for me.

Magnaghi also wrote a book about Bolton, but I believe deducer never knew that.

Once again, sorry for my mistake.

Joe Ribaudo
 

cw0909 said:
Peralta,at the blm glo records

Search Results - BLM GLO Records
Click to expand...

What I find fascinating about that link are the 13 claims that were filed on Saturday the 17th of October, 1891 which is just four days after the death of Waltz (Tuesday the 13th, 1891). 13 of 17 Peralta claims filed four days after Jacob's passing.

It would be very interesting to see a map of the claims.

Nice work cw0909!
 

Hi stroker

Welcome back !

PS

How doing that dragxter racings ? Are you " Bad and Drag " ?
 

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hooch said:
Who was the peralta that owned the store in Phoenix in the late 1800s that blew his brains out in Nogales after gambling all his money away?
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Hooch,
The Miguel Peralta that shot himself in 1897 was deeply connected to the Reavis land scheme. He died at Nogalez, AZ and was 76.
 

cactusjumper said:
Don Jose,


The brass "Drake" plate fooled a number of scholars for many years. Bolton had been fascinated by the history of Drake's brass plate, and had urged his students to be on the lookout for it when out in the forests.


It was something that was completely out of Bolton's wheelhouse and he should have listened to those who were screaming "fake".


If that mistake negates the man's body of work, over many years, I would say, show me a man who makes no mistakes and I will show you a man who makes no decisions.


Take care,


Joe
Click to expand...


Joe,


Reading things into my posts that were never there.


If I had thought that it had in any way negated his work, I would not have about a dozen of his books. I actually think more of Bolton than most historians, mainly because not only did he translate documents and write books, he also actually went into the field and retraced the steps of many Spanish Explorers and Missionaries. Many historians are content to live in a library. Not Bolton. I only included the referenced Drakes Golden Plate because Bolton was not a superhuman. Like everybody else, he could make mistakes. I have not done a side-by-side comparing the differences between his and Father Burrus SJ's translations, but from memory the differences are negligible. I just don't agree with his "BORDERLANDS THEORY" (that is why he named his book Spanish Borderlands). I personally prefer Turner's "Frontier Thesis".


Mike
 

Hal Croves said:
What I find fascinating about that link are the 13 claims that were filed on Saturday the 17th of October, 1891 which is just four days after the death of Waltz (Tuesday the 13th, 1891). 13 of 17 Peralta claims filed four days after Jacob's passing.

It would be very interesting to see a map of the claims.

Nice work cw0909!
Click to expand...

All the claims look like they were South of Tucson.

Mike
 

Roy,

This is where Bolton and I kind of part company. Since I didn't personally know Bolton, I can't speak for what he did in his personal life, and his likes and dislikes. Reading Spanish Borderlands, the opinion parts tend to lean to the left (not a surprise as he spent about 33 years teaching and supervising at UC Berkeley, one of the most Liberal Minded Colleges in America).

I will briefly run down Frederick J Turner's "Frontier Thesis":

In Brief: Turner believed that everything that everybody thought of as AMERICAN came from the Rugged West, not the Cosmopolitan East. To quote: " The West, not the East, was where distinctively American characteristics emerged. The forging of the unique and rugged American identity occurred at the juncture between the civilization of settlement and the savagery of wilderness. This produced a new type of citizen - one with the power to tame the wild and one upon whom the wild had conferred strength and individuality.[11] As each generation of pioneers moved 50 to 100 miles west, they abandoned useless European practices, institutions and ideas, and instead found new solutions to new problems created by their new environment. Over multiple generations, the frontier produced characteristics of informality, violence, crudeness, democracy and initiative that the world recognized as "American".

For instance, when Ronald Reagan ran for President, the most common put-down people around the world had was to call him a "COWBOY". I went around the world twice in both the Navy and the Army. When I would meet people and tell them I was an American, they would always ask about three things; Disneyland, Hollywood, and Beverly Hills. I occasionally got "Big Apple" but Western US references were the most common.

Turner believed that this Westward Expansion influenced America from colonial times until about 1890. The date of 1890 is pretty important to his thesis. By 1890, the United States had snatched up everything from sea to shining sea. We had a friend to the North, and we had fought and defeated our neighbor to the South. Lastly, and maybe most importantly, by 1890, almost all of the Western Renegade Indians had been subdued. The West had been mostly tamed. When there was nothing left to fight, people started settling down, and bringing out those European Habits that did not work in the Wild West. In the new Tame West, liberalism, big government, and political correctness started to ooze in. The ruggedness and individualism that had made Americans Unique previously, started to die out. The only places left to still find that type of American is in the parts of the United States that are still rugged and dangerous to live in. Think about America in the 1950s. The two biggest types of TV Shows were Cowboys & Indians, and War Movies. Rugged Hard Charging Individualists all!

I love the movie "Tommy Boy", and one line from that movie stuck in my head. "IF YOU'RE NOT GROWING, YOU'RE DYING!" Tommy Callaghan's Dad was talking about his Brake Pad Manufacturing Business. That statement is true about almost anything. Business, Plants, Animals, etc. (including American Expansionism). When Rome stopped conquering the known world, what happened? You got a bunch of inbred effeminate Caesars and Nero playing his fiddle while Rome burned. While Rome was conquering and growing, they brought civilization to much of the uncivilized known world. Roman Roads all through Europe and Britain. Aqueducts. Hot and cold running water. Sewers, etc. When they became complacent, the whole place went to *hit.

That is why I agree with Turner much more so than Bolton.

I also just started reading a book by Hubert Bancroft (for whom the library at UC Berkely is named). It is called "History of the North Mexican States and Texas". I know that he was at Berkeley as well, and may likely be just as left leaning as Bolton. We will see. One thing I do know is that HH Bancroft never went to college. He got an honorary degree from Yale based on his vast amount of work. When UC Berkeley bought his collection in 1911, it numbered about 60,000 volumes. It took six people ten years to index them all. He was one of those "Library Historians" I spoke about earlier. He didn't go in the field much. He was content to read and write. Before his death, he had written seven of thirty-nine volumes of a set of books about the history of the Pacific Coast from Central America to Alaska, when his brother's publishing company burned down along with all of Bancroft's Work. He never completed it.

Mike
 

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Hal Croves said:
Hooch,
The Miguel Peralta that shot himself in 1897 was deeply connected to the Reavis land scheme. He died at Nogalez, AZ and was 76.
Click to expand...

Funny how everyone found in the Supes dead was killed gunshot to the head and had "killed themself" or were killed in "unknown" circumstances where known parters also become unaccounted for.

The Reavis crew were 3 originally, and Reavis and his lawyer accomplice had killed off their partner. He was found dead the morning after signing the claim with them, and the funny thing is that he was the original guy that approached Reavis. So he was whacked the second they got a lawyer to back the claim based on a dead man's contract with ?

Its all connected somehow
 

All,

Just for some semblance of clarity as to what I think, I do not believe that Bolton is the end all, be all or the final word on the Jesuits or anything else for that matter. On the other hand, I do have great respect for the work he did, prior to the advent of easily accessible computer files. Only an idiot would think he would not have loved to have such access in his research.

Bolton spent a great deal of his time in the various archives around the world. For myself, I trust his work, and those who worked for him, above computer searches of today. Once most folks have entered a short phrase into their search engine, unless they read the entire book, they will miss what was written before and after their limited search phrase. They will also miss familiarity with the authors overall beliefs.

For those who believe they can read Polzer's mind or any of those early historians, I believe you are sadly mistaken.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

The main reason I included the section about HH Bancroft is that it goes to show that a College Degree is not necessary to be considered an "EXPERT" in ANY particular field. You put in the time and effort. You study what needs to be studied. Don't involve your name in any kinds of craziness. Make sure you have associations with people in Academia. That is important! You will need someone inside Academia to bounce ideas off of. If you do the right thing long enough, you can accomplish almost anything, and be recognized for it. From Particle Physics to History, it makes no difference. You can either grasp a subject or you can't.

Mike
 

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cactusjumper said:
All,

Just for some semblance of clarity as to what I think, I do not believe that Bolton is the end all, be all or the final word on the Jesuits or anything else for that matter. On the other hand, I do have great respect for the work he did, prior to the advent of easily accessible computer files. Only an idiot would think he would not have loved to have such access in his research.

Bolton spent a great deal of his time in the various archives around the world. For myself, I trust his work, and those who worked for him, above computer searches of today. Once most folks have entered a short phrase into their search engine, unless they read the entire book, they will miss what was written before and after their limited search phrase. They will also miss familiarity with the authors overall beliefs.

For those who believe they can read Polzer's mind or any of those early historians, I believe you are sadly mistaken.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
Click to expand...

Joe, there's no attempt to read Polzer's mind or anybody else's the fact that the worlds gone digital gives even a newbie or the average person more data at his finger tips then Polzer ever dreamed of. Weather he's good or bad I really don't know, but I don't put much stock in his work because he was no expert on the subject. He lacked a lot of material to be considered a expert. Limited by means
Wrmickel1
 

cw0909 said:
even better, the link is a Peralta search of a congressional report, i read all the
report, found it informative, how about a hint, why/who said the TT stone maps
were a Peralta artifact, ive looked and just cant nail it down

report
good link
https://books.google.com/books?id=vE5HAQAAIAAJ&vq=peralta&pg=PA266#v=onepage&q=peralta&f=false
might work
https://books.google.com/books?id=vE5HAQAAIAAJ&vq=peralta&pg=PA266#v=onepage&q=peralta&f=true
Click to expand...

CW
The stone maps are most likely not even connected to the Peralta's
Even though they carry the name.
Wrmickel1
 

yes i think that too, just trying to fig how the name peralta
got attached to the stone maps

wrmickel1 said:
CW
The stone maps are most likely not even connected to the Peralta's
Even though they carry the name.
Wrmickel1
Click to expand...
 

wrmickel1 said:
Joe, there's no attempt to read Polzer's mind or anybody else's the fact that the worlds gone digital gives even a newbie or the average person more data at his finger tips then Polzer ever dreamed of. Weather he's good or bad I really don't know, but I don't put much stock in his work because he was no expert on the subject. He lacked a lot of material to be considered a expert. Limited by means
Wrmickel1
Click to expand...

Wrm,

I have no idea what the "Weather" has to do with anything, but deducer claimed that Polzer meant to deny that the Jesuits had no treasure anywhere in the world when he was discussing the Southwest. Pure mind reading.:icon_scratch:

If Father Polzer was no expert, in your opinion, what evidence do you base that opinion on?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

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