LDM why you cant get it ! MAP #10

O. K.
Because you don't have decided yet to participate , I will tell you why the Peralta mine is not the same with the LDM ( ever to my opinion ) .
The Peraltas was miners and topomasters . They found a mountain side rich in gold near to an Apache sacred land . They found a " golden ledge ". In the beginning of the mine exploitation , the Apache left them alone , but watch them carefully from distance. When the Peraltas realized how the vein goes toward in the sacred land and after a some time , they tried to invade into . The Apaches saw them and after a confrontation , killed them . In this case the Peraltas never found the "Apache " or LDM mine .
And now comes Jacob Waltz , who , with the help of the Peralta's stone maps and an relative of Peralta's family , found the Peralta's mine or " Golden ledge " . The " Dutchman " and his company took a small amount of that mine . Jacob Waltz was miner and he realised too how the vein go lower on the mountain side . One day looking around or with the help of his indian girlfriend , found the " Apache " mine . That was a big mistake . The Apaches saw them and tried to kill them .Waltz did along time to go to the mine . After that he went to the " Apache " mine carefully and alone .
And now the Waltz's clues :
" No miner will find my mine ". The Peraltas was miners and that means how they didn't found the mine .
" Some distance above the tunel , on the side of the mountains , is a shaft or incline that is not so steep but one can climb down . This , too , is covered carefully . The shaft goes right down in the midst of the rich golden ledge , where it can picked off in big flakes of almost pure gold " . Look at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gcundiff/LostDutchman/ruth/Bicknell%20Transcribed.pdf . That means how the LDM mine is lower of Peraltas mine .
I hope to give you a good explanation . Now remains to find the location of the mines .


Marius

P.S.

In the "Waltz Map " the big black arrow show the Peralta's " Golden Ledge " , and the star in the circle is the trap . The white circle is LDM . The map have three pictures ( maps ) : One big to the right and two smallest to the left , up and down . The smallest are a closer view of LDM . The map is reversed .

Waltz map.gif

If you want to see maps look at http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/copper/thumbnails.php?album=3
 

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My thoughts on the Fever, Ruth, the Secret, and Waltz the person

Marius,

Thank You for the (Stories) about the LDM, Peralta's, Waltz.

Some of which I had read in the past and most details forgotten.

Gold Fever,
as I remember is a condition where your mind creates chemicals in the body
that will allow you to perform in ways that may be totally out of character. I
would think most Everyone in this Broad Forum "T/N" has had this Fever more
or less, at one time or another.

Ruth I would think is No exception. Or those who found his body thinking
he had found the LDM.

Ruth was a greenhorn, tenderfoot, someone not tested for the elements he was
about to undertake.

Ruths
skull as I recall had a bullet hole or two in it. I saw a picture of his skull on the ground,
searchers in view. But I believe I read this photo was staged, because they did not
have a camera when the search party found the remains.

I think the story of Ruth is sensationalized because of the (paper) note found in
the check book, Veni Vede Vici. I Came, I Saw, I Conquered. The Fever set in
on the Search Party, the Search changed to "Looking for Gold !" Remember
they were the Search Party, the Search was Over, but after the "Huddle" they
decided to retrace Ruth's tracks that could only have been done by the (paper)
they had, and No new evidence on the LDM as I remember. Quote: "Tex led them
- it certainly was a Rough Trip !" A rough trip for Men experienced in this part of the
country. But most likely the first time out for most following the Clues.

What is missing is Ruth never found the LDM. "Vici", there was no Conquered !

Secret,
ever had a secret that someone or some people kept asking you what it was that
you Knew ? To the point of Irritability ? To the point of creating an incidence that
you might otherwise like to forget about ? I have, and was not comfortable about
the whole mess. And it was No Big Deal !

There were two couples having dinner in a restaurant. The two men sitting across
from each other noticed an ash tray on the table that each wanted to take home
after the meal. A discussion occurred on who should have it. One of them said,
"I'll take this off the table and you will never see me take it, if you do, then it's
yours !" when the meal was almost over, the woman on the other side of the
table noticed the ash tray was missing. The man on her side realized he had lost.
The wife, her sister, and the "Looser" kept after him, a 30 mile trip back home. He
kept silent, to analyze the event of the evening. Not the dinner, but the actions of
the group prying to get the Secret of the ash tray. Later that evening the wife of
the "Winner" caused such a commotion on how the Secret was performed that he
eventually had to give in as to "Save The Marriage !" He could not believe how the
situation escalated over something as simple as it was, and we were Not Talking
About A Fabulous Gold Mine !

Jacob Waltz was an educated man. He knew when he turned in his gold for currency
he was a Marked man, a Target. As a prospector, he knew this Gold was exceptional.
His assayed Gold would be the talk of the town, and the next town, and the next.
Because of this, he had cache's placed on the trail back to town.

How smart was Jacob Waltz ?
To be a successful prospector, live out his life to an old age, and No one with the
Fever ever found the Mine, and lived to talk about it !

According to the Stories of those who were looking for the LDM, based on the clues
given by Waltz, this was fairly rugged country. And in this No Man's Land, a place
that no one could work out a living, is this Rock formed by God, known today as
Weavers Needle. I would ask, "How long did it take Waltz before he gave out his
first Clue ? The time for his Second, his Third, Forth. And what time of the year
was it ? Why would he give out any clues at all ? Remember the Ash Tray ? He
gave out clues to get people Off His Back !

Imagine this, people running through town screaming "We Have a Clue to the
Dutchman's Mine !" And eventually "We Have A New Clue !" and everyone would
know exactly what you are screaming about. People running around getting their
gear together and others begging for a "Grub Stake" for a share of the Mine. More
people gathered in lines at the Mercantile with their grub stake money buying
up coffee, bacon, beans & bullets. The lucky one's have already left town, not
boggled down begging for a "Stake". The News travels to the next town, and
the next. Laborer's have now become a shortage everywhere. Those laborers
who have stayed in town can now seek out the best pay, supply and demand
economics also felt at the Mercantile.

Now we are headed out to the Needle. Hundreds of people following the same
trail. Campfires at night, seekers sitting around talking about what they would
do if they found It ! Where ? 5 miles from the Needle, from the North I can see
the 4 Peaks. Essentially, that would put a few people within sight of each other
causing additional stress, immediacy. Someone has to file a claim so you have to
travel together. Locked on to the Needle & 4 Peaks can keep a lot of people off
your back for a while. Concentrated on some of the worst terrain experienced.
Eventually people have come back to town, grub stakes have run out. The
pestering starts all over again, you learn by experience to let out a clue in a timely
manor. Probably in the worst conditions (summer/winter) for Revenge.
You learn over time to talk in parables/fables, this keeps everyone's attention
off him and on the directions (Needle/4 Peaks). I believe Waltz put a lot of
thought of where he wanted to send the Seekers. A place he was familiar with,
"Tex led them, it certainly was a Rough Trip !" Each time the process starts all
over again. Waltz learns the Parasites who have not learned to go out on first
notice, are keeping an eye on him. He may feel safer out on the trail so he goes
to the Fort (McDowell) to report those he suspects may do him harm. He doesn't
trust anyone but the Army, they are the only one's not looking for the Mine.

I would think the only time Waltz could/would give out the actual location of
the Mine would be under duress/illness. If Waltz wanted to give out the site
of the Mine, he would have done that before he died of old age. He would
have taken that someone there. So based on the hardships of a Prospector
to make a living, why would Waltz give away his Mine to anyone who hasn't
paid the price ? There is speculation that Waltz killed his friend Jacob. There
is the part of the story that the friend was at the Mine, together (Mine of 6
Mexicans ?). The friend did not survive, did Waltz kill him because he later
violated the Sacredness of the Mine ?

The Easiest information to follow with the greatest amount of hardship ?
I don't think we are giving the "Dutchman" enough credit !


Lastly, weighing all the evidence that I am concerned with, the Mine exists,
but not in the Superstitions, not around Weavers Needle, not 4 Peaks to the
North. One place (2) entrances and possibly three (3) tunnels within.

Based on my analysis of the words of Waltz, two (2) places to enter the Mine,
Not a ledge of Gold. Due to natural erosion, a ledge would reveal itself. How
does one think a ledge got there in the first place.

This (actual drawing ?) of the entrance, I believe is Real. Red Mountain area.
The left the image is on the Right side of the Arroyo looking up hill. The Picacho/Red Mountain.

Jack



 

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Jack,

"What is missing is Ruth never found the LDM. "Vici", there was no Conquered !"

You, like everyone else assume that Ruth did not find the mine, or what he was looking for.

Before he died, Gene Reynolds asked me if I had a picture of Weaver's Needle, from a claim marker we had found. I did, and he told me that was the view Ruth was looking for. This is the view of Weaver's Needle that Ruth was looking for:

DelMonteClaim.jpg


At this point, I believe Ruth did find "Vici", and was killed, and his body was moved to protect the find.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

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JackH
We can hear you fine. No need to shout.
Thanks
V
 

Hi Jack

I don't have gold fever . I don't want to extract profits from this research . I want to help you to find the LDM following the clues . You believe how I don't know were is it ? I could tell you were it is , to see that i am right , but is the easy way .
Is so easy to find it , but you are suspicious and you don't believe anything . Everyone , according to what he has seen in his dreams , the next day go to a different place . I don't insist to my theory , but i want to show you the correct location . If you don't believe , it's your problem .
I think not participate more . Unfairly lose my time .
In the new "Waltz " map which you post , tell me were is the mountain who have the same high with the Red Mountain ? A proverb say : " Think twice to do once "
I will post two maps to see the similarity between them

Map.jpg Manuel Peralta.gif


P.S.

Joe , you are close to the point , but you are to the place were found the Ruth's body . Ruth when wrote " Veni ,Vidi " was South of Black Mountain between La Barge and Needle Canyon .
 

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markmar said:
Hi Jack

I don't have gold fever . I don't want to extract profits from this research . I want to help you to find the LDM following the clues . You believe how I don't know were is it ? I could tell you were it is , to see that i am right , but is the easy way .
Is so easy to find it , but you are suspicious and you don't believe anything . Everyone , according to what he has seen in his dreams , the next day go to a different place . I don't insist to my theory , but i want to show you the correct location . If you don't believe , it's your problem .
I think not participate more . Unfairly lose my time .
In the new "Waltz "map which you post , tell me were is the mountain who have the same high with the Red Mountain ? A proverb say : " Think twice to do once "
I will post two maps to see the similarity between them .

View attachment 725652View attachment 725653


P.S.

Joe , you are close to the point , but you are to the place were found the Ruth's body . Ruth when wrote " Veni ,Vedi " was South of Black Mountain between La Barge and Needle Canyon .
Click to expand...

MM,

OK, I'll bite.....How do you know were he was when he wrote the note?

Thanks,

Joe
 

Joe

Because from that place you can see the " Perfil " map reversed . Go there and after tell me .

Marius
 

vor said:
JackH
We can hear you fine. No need to shout.
Thanks
V
Click to expand...

thanks vor,

I have been having a problem posting with this new system, even after locking in Chrome.

Wrote my thoughts in an email to myself, copied and pasted into the thread. I had a habit
of bold type in green, and went back to black, now I'm shouting. Thanks again for the heads up.

Jack
 

markmar said:
Hi Jack

I don't have gold fever . I don't want to extract profits from this research . I want to help you to find the LDM following the clues . You believe how I don't know were is it ? I could tell you were it is , to see that i am right , but is the easy way .
Is so easy to find it , but you are suspicious and you don't believe anything . Everyone , according to what he has seen in his dreams , the next day go to a different place . I don't insist to my theory , but i want to show you the correct location . If you don't believe , it's your problem .
I think not participate more . Unfairly lose my time .
In the new "Waltz " map which you post , tell me were is the mountain who have the same high with the Red Mountain ? A proverb say : " Think twice to do once "
I will post two maps to see the similarity between them .

View attachment 725652View attachment 725653


P.S.

Joe , you are close to the point , but you are to the place were found the Ruth's body . Ruth when wrote " Veni ,Vedi " was South of Black Mountain between La Barge and Needle Canyon .
Click to expand...

Marius,

I have had the Fever in my own way, and found that I cannot have the LDM, No One. It belongs to the Pima-Maricopa.
I am resolved to that. If it is opened where I suspect it is, I would like to see it in the condition when it is opened.
Otherwise I would like Someone to find it somewhere else, and I would share in their Happiness from my couch watching
it all on TV. Of course it would be much better than the movie "National Treasure !" because All of US know it is Real the
LDM.

I am not Suspicious of You. You have done a lot of work to help me, but I don't understand your work. There are those
who don't understand my work.

I hope I have not offended you, as there have been those who have offended me. This caused much more work than I was
applying for in that moment in "LDM why you can't get it !"

Jack
 

markmar said:
Hi Jack

I don't have gold fever . I don't want to extract profits from this research . I want to help you to find the LDM following the clues . You believe how I don't know were is it ? I could tell you were it is , to see that i am right , but is the easy way .
Is so easy to find it , but you are suspicious and you don't believe anything . Everyone , according to what he has seen in his dreams , the next day go to a different place . I don't insist to my theory , but i want to show you the correct location . If you don't believe , it's your problem .
I think not participate more . Unfairly lose my time .
In the new "Waltz " map which you post , tell me were is the mountain who have the same high with the Red Mountain ? A proverb say : " Think twice to do once "
I will post two maps to see the similarity between them .

View attachment 725652View attachment 725653


Marius,

Your pictures did not post.

Quote: In the new "Waltz " map which you post , tell me were is the mountain who have the same high with the Red Mountain ?
Answer: Weavers Needle is my guess at 2500+ ft, Red Mountain 2700+ ft.

Jack
Click to expand...
 

Joe

I think Ruth's body was found on the east side of Black Top Mesa Mountain . I am right ?


Marius
 

markmar said:
Joe

I think Ruth's body was found on the east side of Black Top Mesa Mountain . I am right ?


Marius
Click to expand...

MM,

In your opinion, is that the same as:

"Joe , you are close to the point , but you are to the place were found the Ruth's body . Ruth when wrote " Veni ,Vedi " was South of Black Mountain between La Barge and Needle Canyon ."

I must confess, I'm a little confused.

Joe Ribaudo
 

cactusjumper said:
Jack,

"What is missing is Ruth never found the LDM. "Vici", there was no Conquered !"

You, like everyone else assume that Ruth did not find the mine, or what he was looking for.

Before he died, Gene Reynolds asked me if I had a picture of Weaver's Needle, from a claim marker we had found. I did, and he told me that was the view Ruth was looking for. This is the view of Weaver's Needle that Ruth was looking for:

DelMonteClaim.jpg


At this point, I believe Ruth did find "Vici", and was killed, and his body was moved to protect the find.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
Click to expand...

Joe,

In researching google looking for some pics of "Ruth" I can upon your T/N Thread "Adolph Ruth".

Entry #38 shows the Skull from two (2) sides, entry & exit.

Although I claim to have a basic biological background, and some claim I seem to be better at herpetology,
I believe there has been a Huge forensic oversight. The Skull exposing the exit wound, Clearly shows that
Ruth met up with a large knife/machete/miners pick across the face. Over his left frontal lobe across the
nose area, & continuing down across the lower right face/mouth. This may account for the missing arm
bones. Ruth protecting himself would have held his arms up in defense, as a heavy right handed cross
slash came down through his hands and or arms. And may explain why the weapon did not fully penetrate.
The area of the cut is a softer bone tissue. Where the body has movable joints/parts tendons must have
softer tissue as cartilage to connect to the harder bone.

There seems to be two (2) evidence marks at the entry hole 2 o'clock & 4 o'clock. This could have been
made by a miners pick neck. Left frontal lobe seems to have additional damage.

If this seems to be an option, could Ruth have been caught lying on the ground for such and attack ?

Thanks So much Ales Hrklicka forensic expert of the Day, who did not want to get involved.

Jack
 

Joe

" South of Black Mountain ( not Black Top Mesa ) between La Barge and Needle Canyon " is the place were Ruth wrote on his notebook " Veni , Vidi " , because is the only place from where you can see the " Perfil " or " Ruth - Gonzales " map reversed . Namely the " Weaver's Needle " to the right and the other hight mountain ( Bluff Spring Mountain ) to the left . On the map the author didn't show The " Weaver's Needle " from the base but only the top and the other picture to the base is a part of the mountain in front of it . Is a trick to confuse .
Maybe " Ruth was a greenhorn, tenderfoot " but he was smart and before reject the clues , he tryed to decode them . If he didn't killed , today not talking about were is the LDM .
 

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cactusjumper said:
Jack,

"What is missing is Ruth never found the LDM. "Vici", there was no Conquered !"

You, like everyone else assume that Ruth did not find the mine, or what he was looking for.

Before he died, Gene Reynolds asked me if I had a picture of Weaver's Needle, from a claim marker we had found. I did, and he told me that was the view Ruth was looking for. This is the view of Weaver's Needle that Ruth was looking for:

DelMonteClaim.jpg


At this point, I believe Ruth did find "Vici", and was killed, and his body was moved to protect the find.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
Click to expand...

Howdy Joe,

Your beliefs are also assumptions just like all others, no different. Some assume "Vici", others don't. You take it further, and assume this area in the picture is what Ruth was looking for. Then you also assume that his body was moved to protect his find.

If this is the area he was looking for, which is the cave 200 feet from there? This assumption can be cleared if there is no cave 200 feet from that marker.

If the body was moved to protect the find, why would the note be in the pocket? This defeats the purpose of your assumption.

In my opinion, even Ruth was assuming the maps he had would lead him to the LDM. It seems like he was trying to follow the Dutchman's directions, and the maps at the same time, instead of just following the maps to the Gonzales mines. :dontknow: Just assuming :laughing7:

Homar
 

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