LDM, OZ, & CALALUS

[Not Peralta]

REALLY, KAKA.NP

 

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[Azquester]

Bill

The bullets are exposed to the elements . The Tucson artifacts were not exposed ( because the cement ) in the same degree .

Bullets are down in the ground they don't usually fall out of the sky. Some are deep in the ground shot while shooting at some game. The ones that have been buried by erosion are even more corroded.

My point is the soil in Arizona around Tucson is corrosive to lead and deeper would be more advanced corrosion. Those artifacts may not have been buried and the belief was they had been laying there so long they were covered by erosion which would really make them fake just because of that.

If they you left them on the ground in the sun for a few years and reburied them today for a few more years they would be in bad shape. Lead is soft and the wind action with sand and rock would clean the surface of the patina of all carved symbols.

 

[Hal Croves]

Bullets are down in the ground they don't usually fall out of the sky. Some are deep in the ground shot while shooting at some game. The ones that have been buried by erosion are even more corroded.

My point is the soil in Arizona around Tucson is corrosive to lead and deeper would be more advanced corrosion. Those artifacts may not have been buried and the belief was they had been laying there so long they were covered by erosion which would really make them fake just because of that.

If they you left them on the ground in the sun for a few years and reburied them today for a few more years they would be in bad shape. Lead is soft and the wind action with sand and rock would clean the surface of the patina of all carved symbols.

"some lead was mined in Arizona during the civil war and earlier, but we have no complete statistics prior to 1894"

"At about the same time (1858) the Mowry lead deposit, in Santa Cruz County, was discovered. It was worked during the Civil War, and its owner, Lt. Sylvester Mowry, got into trouble with the Government for allegedly selling lead to the Confederates."

"In 1863..., and the Castle Dome lead deposits were discovered during that year"

Early Mining in Arizona
Elded D. Wilson
Kiva
Vol. 11, No. 4 (May, 1946), pp. 39-47

Bill,
Certainly no shortage of lead mines in the area.

 

[sgtfda]

A lot of the silver deposits had a very high lead content. 50 60%. Recall reading about a cache of Spanish silver bars found in a cave in southern Az. Barely worth hauling out due to the high lead content.

 

[Azquester]

"some lead was mined in Arizona during the civil war and earlier, but we have no complete statistics prior to 1894"

"At about the same time (1858) the Mowry lead deposit, in Santa Cruz County, was discovered. It was worked during the Civil War, and its owner, Lt. Sylvester Mowry, got into trouble with the Government for allegedly selling lead to the Confederates."

"In 1863..., and the Castle Dome lead deposits were discovered during that year"

Early Mining in Arizona
Elded D. Wilson
Kiva
Vol. 11, No. 4 (May, 1946), pp. 39-47

Bill,
Certainly no shortage of lead mines in the area.

I guess lead is where you find it!

I know a lot of mines that were supposed to be gold or silver have been deemed lead for the purpose of closure by the environmental agenda's of the BLM and Forest service.
Mercury is another common theme when it comes to those sort of claims. They even have a mercury content website of all lakes in Arizona!

The facts that Marius posted about the artifacts being made from car batteries may just be the answer. There was a junkyard near the site of the discovery which may lend credence to the theory of battery lead. In the same context the symbol of a Dinosaur also shows a link to possible ancient cultures as per the examples Marius provided so it leaves one with a toss up.

In the early parts of the twentieth century it was quit common for junk cars being used as erosion control in dry washes and steams. In Missouri along the Mississippi in many creeks as in Bear Creek where I grew up, same creek as Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn fished in, you could see old model A's and T's, ford's, chevy's, dodge's, all sticking out of the banks of the creek after a flood!

I suppose the artifacts could have been created with the batteries in the junk yard as a novelty and accidently left there when the bank of the wash was reinforced with automobiles. The coating on the artifacts of what looks to be caliche may be corrosion from the battery acids as it probably was an old battery pile in a junkyard where they were created.


Just a theory.

 

[markmar]

Bill

I never supported how the artifacts were made from car batteries junk .

 

[Oroblanco]

Bill

I never supported how the artifacts were made from car batteries junk .

How do you explain the antimony in the Tucson artifacts? Thanks in advance.

 

[cactusjumper]

How do you explain the antimony in the Tucson artifacts? Thanks in advance.

Roy,

We just builds em, we don't explains em.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Roy,

We just builds em, we don't explains em.

Take care,

Joe[/QUOTE
Oro, cactusjumper,

Is antimony mined in Arizona? Would it have been available non-commercially to the person making the lead trinkets? Other than from recycled batteries?

 

[sdcfia]

How do you explain the antimony in the Tucson artifacts? Thanks in advance.

I don't support validity of the artifacts, but I guess a lead-antimony alloy in early Arizona is not totally impossible.

Stibnite from Yavapai Co., Arizona, USA

 

[Hal Croves]

"The presence of antimony in historical artifacts indicates it was known to ancient civilizations. Combined with sulfur in stibnite (Sb2S3) it was used in Egyptian cosmetics four or five thousand years ago, as a black eyeliner.(1)


It's likely that Roman author Pliny gave it the name stibium, from which the modern element symbol Sb was taken, in the first century AD. Stibnite is found most commonly, Pliny says, among the ores of silver. Pliny described stibnite's use as a medicine. He also noted how if too strongly heated, it would turn to lead. What we understand now by this is the lead described by Pliny is actually the element antimony. (2)


In the first half of the 1500s, Vannoccio Biringuccio wrote a description "Concerning Antimony and Its Ore". This is an alchemical work. Biringuccio describes antimony sulfide as either "a monstrosity among metals" or, alternatively, "a material that is about to reach metallic perfection, but is hindered from doing so by being mined too soon". He also warns against heating the antimony sulfide too strongly because this will produce a substance that "although this is very white and almost more shining than silver, it is much more brittle than glass." This is a clear description of the element antimony. (3)


Nicolas Lémery wrote his Treatise on Antimony in 1707. This was still not chemistry as we know it. In his writings, Lémery describes how acids prick the tongue because they contain spiky particles, while metals dissolve in acids because the sharp points of acids tear the metal particles apart. (4)


The name "antimony" is derived from two Greek words: 'anti' and 'monos' which mean not alone. This results from the fact that antimony is infrequently found native, but usually combined with sulfur or with heavier metals such as copper, lead and silver."

 

[markmar]

How do you explain the antimony in the Tucson artifacts? Thanks in advance.

Roy

In the the professional accounts which were done by those who excavated the site and took photos , they wrote how an artifact was found undet a 50 year old Mesquite tree . This mean how the artifact was made at last in 1874 , and reject the car battery theory . Also they wrote how there was absolutely no evidence of pits dug to plant the pieces under the surface .
Now about the analysis of the artifacts metal , Cummings from the University of Arizona made two different " final reports " about the artifacts , and this shows how maybe political or economical reasons could played into the scene .
The first " final report " was done in 1926 and says how the artifacts metal,( except lead ) has antimony and shows traces of tin , gold , silver and copper , like the ores mined in the Tucson mountains . And the second " final rep[ort ' which was done in 1930 says how the artifacts type metal is similar to common type unlike the crude local lead .
At the period of the first " final report ' . a form of assayers, A.L. Pellegrin & Son, says how the analysis of the artifacts showed that they contained ( excrpt leadf ) silver, tin, antimony and traces of copper, arsenic, and bismuth , identical to ores from local mines which type metal has 1 1/2 to three times the antimony content of the artifacts; also, type metal has no traces of gold or silver at all .

Roy , I am bored to support the obvious .

 

[cactusjumper]

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2003/of03-019/of03-019.pdf

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2003/of03-019/of03-019.pdf

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

One thing that I will say is that the site was about as convenient as it gets for this type of thing.
Great Link.

 

[UncleMatt]

I have seen research indicating that the antimony levels exactly matched that to be found in lead used to create the lead in batteries and other goods in the early 1900's. That is a huge red flag right there. Especially since the ratios found do not match ratios to be found in naturally occurring lead deposits in the area.

 

[Not Peralta]

Theodorus,
A very interesting subject, now there's several different locations in the U S were his name has been found on artifacts.
what say you? NP

 

[somehiker]

I'd say it probably has more to do with the popularity of Plato.
Folks been reading and talking about him and Theodorus for a LONG time.
Makes for a big fan base, and likely a few sons named after both of them as well.

 

[oldpueblo]

I recently purchased, "Merchant Adventurer Kings of Rhoda: The Lost World of the Tucson Artifacts" by Donald N Yates

I have just started reading it but I did take the opportunity to skim over a few sections. So far there are some inaccuracies, or at the very least some missed opportunities. Those missed opportunities could be used for further research.

Tumamoc Hill is a historically, culturally, and strategically important site. Much more work needs to be done at this location and the surrounding areas. However, Tumamoc Hill is not the location of Rhoda.
He also states that some of the markings on the Tucson Artifacts are Chinese and Hebrew seal script and Ogam. Some of the markings he is describing are actually trail systems and specific views of landscapes.

A close observation of Tucson Artifact #18 is also thought provoking. There is a familiar symbol that is apparent in at least a couple of places on this artifact. This symbol has been misunderstood and misinterpreted for a long time. This symbol appears as a petroglyph in a couple of locations in the range as well as on several other items of interest. It appears on the heart insert of the stone trail maps, the stone crosses, and at least a couple of other maps. One of those maps was the property of NP and put up on this site by Markmar. The Latin Heart and Circlestone also play a vital role in all of this. A star map and an observatory to show the way.

Some fail to see the fundamental connection between these things. There is enough information available in the public domain to put many pieces of the puzzle together. There has also been a lot of disinformation put out there over the years in an attempt to muddy the water. What better way to hide the truth than to pretend to share it.
Anyway, as I go through the book if anything else jumps out at me I'll let you know. It looks like it will be an interesting read.

oldpueblo

 

[markmar]

Here is a text of what NP wrote about his stone tablets:

" Some people were more interested in arguing than looking at why I knew certain things. I, personally was starting to feel the same way as Bob Ward. Why shouldn't these things be lost forever? None the less, there are two hidden stone tablets. Both are a lot older than the famous stone tablets and both do not resemble the stone tablets. One of the tablets has a heart insertion on the left hand side and it's different than the heart insertion on the famous stone tablets. On both tablets, the writing is different. Both tablets have sheep or lambs and bulls on them. The tablets are carved on both sides. They also show a star constellation and a pyramid with a line over the top of it. They also show a massive underground tunnel systems in different locations with rooms. In my opinion the lambs and sheep and bulls represent two different groups of people. "

Np gave me indications and described the place where those stone tablets are hidden. He also said how the same place is described in Bob Ward's map to the DeGrazia hidden paintings.
This is the map depicted in one of those stone tablets which NP made out of his memory

 

[oldpueblo]

Marius,
I’m sure that NP had a lot of good information about the Supes and Spirit Mountain area. It seems he had a number of years of experience in both areas. He also stated that he had located several Trident symbols in the range. Very interesting. That symbol is also found on the Tucson Artifacts. Did he ever provide any history of the maps that he had and that you put up? Is there anything else that you can share about those maps or the other stone tablets? Publicly or privately would be much appreciated.

At another bus station I put this up, but I will also share it here. The petroglypths I mentioned have symbols that are trying to lead someone to Transeo Ecclesia. It may be difficult but not impossible to locate. That entrance was covered up a few years ago. That action was taken by a person, or persons in a panic of a perceived threat. This overreaction was completely unfounded.

oldpueblo