KGC INTERESTED MIGHT WANT TO SEE THIS

[KGC4Dixie]

The tariff issues had died by the 1850s. In fact the confederate government imposed the Walker Tariff act of 1857 on itself which was the same one they were under in the Union.

Walker Colt, I'm trying to understand why it would be a bad thing for the Confederate government to impose a tax for itself and not have 75-80% pre-secession taxes flee Dixie to build Northern infrastructure.

Gary

 

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[Walker Colt]

My only point was that during secession the Tariff was almost a non issue. The southern states were happy with the Walker Tariff of 1846 and its revision of 1857 so much so they adopted it. The overwhelming reason for secession was that the Federal Government did not allow the institution of slavery in the new territories and if these new territories became free states it would upset the balance of power in the senate and the institution of slavery in the southern states would be in jeopardy.

You really don't see the state's rights issue come up until the 1870s. People still argue this until they are blue in the face. My ancestors were confederates, two were wounded, one captured at Vicksburg where he was paroled and captured later in the war and sent to the hell hole Camp Douglas prison and never signed an oath of allegiance to get out before the war ended. Most of the south did not own slaves but their economy was driven by it. I am not embarrased by my ancestry so I don't have to come up with other issues why they seceeded. They told us load and clear in every newspaper and secession convention why they did.

 

[KGC4Dixie]

My only point was that during secession the Tariff was almost a non issue. The southern states were happy with the Walker Tariff of 1846 and its revision of 1857 so much so they adopted it.

Walker Colt, The Southern states were by tariff forced to trade with the North and buy goods, millions of dollars were once discovered of excess in the U.S. treasury and divided among Northern states only. Being "happy" is highly subjective a statement to when being treated as the milk cow of the union by New England states and there are always political reasons that later no one can figure. Are you one for registry of firearms, new healthcare or a muzzle on free speech? As we are seeing, the majority do not have to want those things to get them by Congress.

The overwhelming reason for secession was that the Federal Government did not allow the institution of slavery in the new territories and if these new territories became free states it would upset the balance of power in the senate and the institution of slavery in the southern states would be in jeopardy.

Perhaps the reasons you read slavery into the "only" reason for secession was the result of the Northern social hammer of abolitionism. Any have to look at both sides to get a real picture and so many of the books available nowadays are strongly one sided.

You really don't see the state's rights issue come up until the 1870s. People still argue this until they are blue in the face.

A real Confederate will correct this point. In the ratifications to the U.S. Constitution there were states of which was Rhode Island who declared that laws injurious to the well-being of the state and her people constituted a right to leave. In 1812, New England states at the Hartford convention sent a letter of secession to Washington D.C. because the South would not stop fighting the British. The War ended right away and the letter was retrieved en route. In the 1830s South Carolina threatened state's rights in the nullification of tax laws to which threats were made by Andrew Jackson to send troops. I believe this points to the need to do more research on how state's rights were only reduced by the concept of the great Civil War afterward. If anything, I can only imagine discussion in the 1870s were a backlash to a perceived loss of rights by the states.

My ancestors were confederates, two were wounded, one captured at Vicksburg where he was paroled and captured later in the war and sent to the hell hole Camp Douglas prison and never signed an oath of allegiance to get out before the war ended. Most of the south did not own slaves but their economy was driven by it. I am not embarrased by my ancestry so I don't have to come up with other issues why they seceeded. They told us load and clear in every newspaper and secession convention why they did.

You have great potential to be a KGC Dixie defender if we could only get you the right reading materials. Here is a quote from someone living through those times.

"There was no surrender at Appomattox, and no withdrawal from the field which committed our people and their children to a heritage of shame and dishonor. No cowardice on any battlefield could be as base and shameful as the silent acquiescence in the scheme which was teaching the children in their homes and schools that the commercial value of slavery was the cause of the war, that prisoners of war held in the South were starved and treated with a barbarous inhumanity, that Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee were traitors to their country and false to their oaths, that the young men who left everything to resist invasion, and climbed the slopes of Gettysburg and died willingly on a hundred fields were rebels against a righteous government." --The Reverend James Power Smith, last surviving member of General Jackson's staff, 1907

Gary

 

[Walker Colt]

Well Gary it is pointless to argue the matter. If you won't listen to the men who made secession happen or read their own secession ordinances then why listen to me. After they lost the war their stories changed into the lost cause myth but before the war they were very clear as to why they seceeded. Lets get back to treasure hunting and the KGC.

 

[KGC4Dixie]

Well Gary it is pointless to argue the matter. If you won't listen to the men who made secession happen or read their own secession ordinances then why listen to me. After they lost the war their stories changed into the lost cause myth but before the war they were very clear as to why they seceeded. Lets get back to treasure hunting and the KGC.

It is never pointless to carry a correct view in the face of overwhelming odds and I'm glad to listen to you Walker Colt but not accepting of this peculiar point of view in understanding not shared by KGC and Confederate Founders. The history of Dixie has always been the same. Enjoyed.

Gary

 

[lastleg]

Many patriots in Texas are entertaining the idea of Succesion II.

 

[dirty_digger]

Well guys, I just have to put my two cents in here. Ill start with some facts to add to the discussion. Ol' Honest Abe was pro slavery himself. His family were SLAVE OWNERS. Although his mother and father were to poor to own many if any at all. It was his kin folk that owned them. It wasn't until Lincoln was practicing law in a free state (Illinois) with Will Herndon that he changed his voice to antislavery. The issue of slavery in the south was an economic strategy. If the southern states were free states and without slaves, the economy would not be able to support a war. If you have ever read the entire Emancipation Proclamation, you would read that states in the north and areas of northern control in the south were allowed to keep slaves. President Lincoln tried to outlaw slavery in a country that was no longer under his control. Lincoln even had plans and contracts to ship freed slaves back to Africa after the war. However these plans were not accomplished due to the secret nature and his untimely death.

Yes slavery was an issue during the civil war. But not the right or wrong of it. Just the economic stability it gave the south. There were many issues that lead to the war. Protection from indians and mexican bandits, taxes being paid to the union were not used to advance conditions in southern states, southern state leaders were being pushed around in Washington by northern majorities, and violence was used as a scare tactic by the north against southern states that "might" succeed.

The Civil War, like any other war was an economical one. Anyone who disagrees with this should realize that England was on the side of the confederacy. Its a well known fact and one that explains alot. If not for financial reasons.... Why would England even care?

For the many people out there who refuse to give proof that the info they post is real, here are my sources...

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured_documents/emancipation_proclamation/transcript.html

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAlincoln.htm

... There is also a book and article written by a black person stating these facts. I believe they were a writer for Ebony Magazine. The cover of the book is half black and half white. If anyone finds this info please share it for I have misplaced my link.

These are the facts. Take them and use them in your own twisted ways.

 

[Shortstack]

You are surely correct on your statements, dirty_digger. Dishonest Abe wrote in the EP that all slaves within the Secessionists States were free, except for two (unnamed) Parishes in south Louisiana. Most folks have not read the EP, but they should; it's only one page in length.

I've heard Americans of African Decent, hotly speak AGAINST the Constitution of the Confederate States of America and claim that anyone who speaks against Obama is a racist with sworn allegiance to the CSA Constitution. That statement proves their total ignor ance and the FACT that they have never even LOOKED at that document; much less,actually READ it. How can anyone so openly advertise their lack of knowledge (ignor ance) on that subject?

The Constitution of the Confederate States of America and the Emancipation Proclamation are very easy to find on the internet. All A.A.D.'s should read those 2 documents............but they won't.

 

[Texas Jay]

dirty_digger and members, here is an excellent book that documents everything that dirty-digger said and more about Abe Lincoln and the causes of the Civil War. I read it a few years ago and posted excerpts from it on our Bloody Bill Anderson Mystery group's message board.

***
From: "Lincoln Unmasked - What You're Not Supposed to Know About
Dishonest Abe" by Thomas J. DiLorenzo, 2006.

***

"Thomas J. DiLorenzo is the author of "The Real Lincoln" and "How
Capitalism Saved America". A professor of economics at Loyola College
in Maryland and a senior fellow at the Ludwig von Mises Institute, he
has written for the Wall Street Journal, USA Today, the Washington
Post, Reader's Digest, Barron's, and many other publications. He lives
in Baltimore, Maryland."

***
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

 

[Walker Colt]

The secessionist tell us why they left the Union. They wrote Declarations of Causes along with their Ordinances of Secession. Read their own words.

http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html

 

[dirty_digger]

SWR, I cant believe I am posting this, but it must be said. TEXAS JAY was right to repost his crazy yahoo link here. I usually do not agree with TEXAS JAY, and his lack of resources. If he has resources to back his claims, he usually will not post them. It causes quite the comotion in many parts of this forum, lol. But if he quotes a reference on the site, let him post it. You dont have to read it. Im just glad he used references this time, lol. Im glad there are a few more references to back what I said up. I am bad about forgetting where I find some of this info. Thanks for the positive replies and support guys. We all need to remember that what we were tought in school is usually way off. And we will NEVER know all of the story. All we can do is try to fill in the holes with factual events and records.

 

[dirty_digger]

SWR, I guess thats true. I didnt look through his group long enough to find the book sources he was refering to. Guess I gave him credit a lil to early. So lets have the real sources or links to these books TEXAS JAY. I know I would like to read them. Sorry SWR, I jumped the gun, lol.

 

[BoggyBottomJay]

SWR, I guess thats true. I didnt look through his group long enough to find the book sources he was refering to. Guess I gave him credit a lil to early. So lets have the real sources or links to these books TEXAS JAY. I know I would like to read them. Sorry SWR, I jumped the gun, lol.

Gun jumper lol

 

[lastleg]

I am puzzled about why SWR feels the need to inject PC garbage into this
harmless artistry discussion. Gary does beautiful work and some of us like
his talents. In fact, I don't associate it with slavery at all.
This whole KGC phenomonan is currently popular and is the source for many
enjoyable comedic moments for this observor. PC crap is a downer.

 

[Texas Jay]

SWR, I guess thats true. I didnt look through his group long enough to find the book sources he was refering to. Guess I gave him credit a lil to early. So lets have the real sources or links to these books TEXAS JAY. I know I would like to read them. Sorry SWR, I jumped the gun, lol.

dirty_digger, I post sources for every informative post I make on here. As for the DiLorenzo book I referred to, you will have to actually buy the book or get a copy from your public library in order to read it.

http://www.thomasdilorenzo.com/

https://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780307338419&view=quotes

~Texas Jay

 

[Texas Jay]

"Confronting the Lincoln Cult"

{Ever since starting the most extensive investigation ever conducted into the controversial life and death of Bloody Bill Anderson of Quantrill's Raiders in early 2006 and extending the research into the Knights of the Golden Circle, I and members of our group have faced the same kind of traditionalist opposition and dirty tactics that DiLorenzo faced when he wrote and published "The Real Lincoln". - Texas Jay}

http://mises.org/article.aspx?Id=973&FS=Confronting+the+Lincoln+Cult

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery - this is the forum I chose to create in order to bring researchers, genealogists, historians, and other interested people together for this important historical project.

 

[Walker Colt]

Calling Abe Lincoln PRO SLAVERY is like calling Obama PRO GUN. Lincoln's Congressional record speaks loud and clear that he was a antislavery abolitionist. Not as bad as some of the others but bad enough for Calhoun to call him out in his Southern Address.

Lincoln was a big time supporter of the Wilmot Proviso, and also wrote legislation to abolish slavery in DC and all federal owned properties.

According to the secessionist the main reason for secession was if the newly acquired territories became freestates then it would give the abolitionists more power in congress and threaten slavery in the southern states. Lincoln was strongly in favor of that which made him the enemy of the institution of slavery.

Action (Voting record) means more than his words.

 

[Texas Jay]

Hi Walker Colt. I don't know when I or DiLorenzo ever said that Lincoln was "pro-slavery" but the record is clear that Lincoln was against what is called "racial equality". Those are two different positions and are not synonymous. One point that the Lincoln cultists and traditionalists refuse to acknowledge is that the Civil War had many causes. Slavery was only one of them.
~Texas Jay

 

[dirty_digger]

Thanks TEXAS JAY, thats the kind of links I like to see on here. Right to the point so to speak. I will read those books and hope to lear a lil something. I had heard of them before.

WALKER, I believe that between TEXAS JAY, myself and others posting on this topic, it has been established that Dis-honest Abe was NOT pro slavery. The resources for his position on race equality, or lack there of, have been posted and agreed upon by several members posting here. There is nothing to argue. The issue of Lincoln's racial opinions is simply a fact that was intentionaly left out of the history books.

And BOGGYBOTTOMJAY, you can bite me!!!!!!!

 

[Walker Colt]

Well guys, I just have to put my two cents in here. Ill start with some facts to add to the discussion. Ol' Honest Abe was pro slavery himself. His family were SLAVE OWNERS. Although his mother and father were to poor to own many if any at all. It was his kin folk that owned them. It wasn't until Lincoln was practicing law in a free state (Illinois) with Will Herndon that he changed his voice to antislavery. The issue of slavery in the south was an economic strategy. If the southern states were free states and without slaves, the economy would not be able to support a war. If you have ever read the entire Emancipation Proclamation, you would read that states in the north and areas of northern control in the south were allowed to keep slaves. President Lincoln tried to outlaw slavery in a country that was no longer under his control. Lincoln even had plans and contracts to ship freed slaves back to Africa after the war. However these plans were not accomplished due to the secret nature and his untimely death.

I apologize gentlemen, I was responding to your earlier post.