JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Springfield]

The letter was allegedly written by 'Padre LaRue' to a 'Father Rheuschone' in Madrid (both Franciscans) - the subject being Soledad Peak in the San Andreas Range (known in more recent times as Victorio Peak). This has been disputed by those with a deeper knowledge of the Noss legends. The name of Rascone, reputedly a Knight Templar, has been claimed to be the actual person who is commonly identified as LaRue in the treasure stories. Not long ago I posted a map that is allegedly related to the letter. I'll see if I can find the post. [Map added below]

 

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[cactusjumper]

Carolyn at San Xavier del Bac:



Nice setting.

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
Joe - nice photo!


Deducer - having now looked at a number of different statues of father Junipero Serra as well as images like Cactusjumper posted, I think that statue in the facade COULD be of Serra. It is notably different from most all depictions of Serra, but considering there were no photographs of the man most of the depictions are impressions rather than exact. There are old posts online which say the statue is,< or was I should say> of father Carlos Rojas or Roxas, but so far I have not seen anything "official" which stated this. It could be that the people whom were under the impression that statue was of Rojas, were mistaken. However I am leaving the door open on this one, hopefully something more substantial can settle the issue one way or the other.




Father Carlos Rojas or Roxas is an intriguing and mysterious figure, the Mission 2000 database has only a couple of dozen documents connected to him and spans a rather long period from 1732 to the 1760s, and he was apparently present at various missions (Cuquiarachi, Cocos etc) before being assigned to Arizpe, and also held a higher position than simple missionero which would make sense for a long career. He baptised at least two children of captain Anza, which may indicate a close (friendly) relationship with that powerful and capable figure of the frontier. I would like to see more concerning his relationship to mining activities and/or bell casting, which is a point I think you have been trying to make.


Springfield - I for one am sorry to see you drop out of the debate, your logic and reasoning are always sound and your arguments intelligent rather than getting personal or heated. However I do see your point - we have beaten the dead horse for some time; this will not and can not be settled in an absolute, indisputable way and certainly not on any treasure forum which would be a mark against it simply because it is a discussion by treasure hunters. This is after all a tempest in a teacup - historians have little or no interest in whether any padres were mining or had treasures, and there is a perceptible level of shall we say "respect" for the power of the Church, should any historian go too far in telling their history.


It is funny you should mention that about father Kino, for it is not the first time I have heard it. While some of Kino's travels are fairly well documented, there are also periods of time in his career which are blanks. Another Jesuit padre supposedly explored to the headwaters of the Gila, which would take him very near the NM line. Plus there are a number of (old) sources which claim that the Jesuits were in fact "poaching" in the Franciscan's territory of New Mexico, and vice-versa. Something was definitely going on - you can see some level of hostility between the Franciscans and Jesuits even in father Garces letter (or report, don't have it at my elbow) which has a very definite sarcastic tone, referring to the Jesuits and "their 'labors'" - quotes NOT added by me but were put in the original letter by Garces, implying that the Jesuit's labors were not focused on the task of converting the heathen and saving souls. Without stating it, he implies that the Jesuits were too busy with their commercial endeavors to address their ecclesiastical duties.


Further - there is record of two Jesuit attempts to found missions among the Apaches, both of which failed. Of one attempt, two Apache prisoners/slaves were the go-betweens and somehow (no details given) this resulted in failure, another attempt has even less detail simply naming two padres (father Gonzalvo being the most mysterious) and a time period (1711 if memory serves) and that it failed. Where was Gonzalvo and his brother padre working with Apaches? No details, however it is perhaps a hint that Gonzalvo later turns up at San Xavier del Bac and seems to drift around. I wish I had more info which could be helpful for you but unfortunately there are few references to the Superstitions, and though the Jesuits do discuss their attempts to reach the Moqui and that exploration of the Gila, little detail has turned up.


Last bit but I am in agreement with you that ALL of the stories of lost Jesuit treasures/mines have some flaw in them, which may or may not be deliberate. The reason I say this is that most remain lost, which indicates that something has to be wrong with the story. And we might note that even those mines which were found, as with the Salero, prior to being found had a story which was likewise flawed; one of the oldest newspaper accounts of an expedition to find the Salero for example, went off looking in the wrong mountain range entirely! <They went into the Tumacacori mountains, the mine is on the W flank of the Santa Rita mountains.> The finding of the mine did not happen until someone discovered a document in one of the missions which had enough (correct) details as to its location, the stories in circulation until then were clearly erroneous. Anyway in these stories, the flaw could be something as simple as a direction being wrong, east versus west, etc and treasure hunters will continue to search the wrong areas until someone figures out what that flaw is or gets very lucky while looking in a "wrong" area.


Perhaps tomorrow something will turn up, which will settle the question for everyone; until then vaya con dios amigo I hope you find the treasures that you seek, thank you for your participation and I hope you will change your mind.

Interesting letter, I think the Pope of 1797 was Pius VI however not III, and as Pius was being held a virtual prisoner by Napoleon, the letter is all the more curious. I don't say spurious, for surely the Pope continued his correspondence even while being held a prisoner.
Oroblanco

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

The letter was allegedly written by 'Padre LaRue' to a 'Father Rheuschone' in Madrid (both Franciscans) - the subject being Soledad Peak in the San Andreas Range (known in more recent times as Victorio Peak). This has been disputed by those with a deeper knowledge of the Noss legends. The name of Rascone, reputedly a Knight Templar, has been claimed to be the actual person who is commonly identified as LaRue in the treasure stories. Not long ago I posted a map that is allegedly related to the letter. I'll see if I can find the post. [Map added bel

View attachment 974375

Very interesting , there is a Rascone canyon below one of the mountain ranges i hunt in. and there is what i belive to be a shadow sign of two riders on one horse(knights templars?)and i like to belive iam in the area of one of the 7 city's. just a guess on may part,no photos of the gold yet to back it up.thats some great info. and map springfield,thanks.View attachment 974623

 

[deducer]

Hola amigos,
Joe - nice photo!


Deducer - having now looked at a number of different statues of father Junipero Serra as well as images like Cactusjumper posted, I think that statue in the facade COULD be of Serra. It is notably different from most all depictions of Serra, but considering there were no photographs of the man most of the depictions are impressions rather than exact. There are old posts online which say the statue is,< or was I should say> of father Carlos Rojas or Roxas, but so far I have not seen anything "official" which stated this. It could be that the people whom were under the impression that statue was of Rojas, were mistaken. However I am leaving the door open on this one, hopefully something more substantial can settle the issue one way or the other.

Father Carlos Rojas or Roxas is an intriguing and mysterious figure, the Mission 2000 database has only a couple of dozen documents connected to him and spans a rather long period from 1732 to the 1760s, and he was apparently present at various missions (Cuquiarachi, Cocos etc) before being assigned to Arizpe, and also held a higher position than simple missionero which would make sense for a long career. He baptised at least two children of captain Anza, which may indicate a close (friendly) relationship with that powerful and capable figure of the frontier. I would like to see more concerning his relationship to mining activities and/or bell casting, which is a point I think you have been trying to make.

If it can be proven that the statue on the facade was always intended to be Serra, including prior to the building of the facade, then I will adjust my position.

But until that happens, I have no reasons to believe that three separate people lied about, or made up their experiences, one of who says a priest told him. Also the third was a person who went to school there.

Fr. Rojas is indeed a mysterious figure. I have been aggressively researching him.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

You wrote:

"Further - there is record of two Jesuit attempts to found missions among the Apaches, both of which failed. Of one attempt, two Apache prisoners/slaves were the go-betweens and somehow (no details given) this resulted in failure, another attempt has even less detail simply naming two padres (father Gonzalvo being the most mysterious) and a time period (1711 if memory serves) and that it failed. Where was Gonzalvo and his brother padre working with Apaches? No details, however it is perhaps a hint that Gonzalvo later turns up at San Xavier del Bac and seems to drift around. I wish I had more info which could be helpful for you but unfortunately there are few references to the Superstitions, and though the Jesuits do discuss their attempts to reach the Moqui and that exploration of the Gila, little detail has turned up."
__________________________________

Father Francisco Gonzalvo died on August 10, 1702. He had been transferred to San Xavier del Bac the previous year.
His first service was in southern Sonora, probably around 1688 or 1689. Believe he stayed there until around 1699 when he went with Father Kino and Father Visitor Antonio Leal into Papago country.

There is more information on the man, but it does not seem that important. I can provide sources if you like.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

You wrote:

"Further - there is record of two Jesuit attempts to found missions among the Apaches,<snip>
__________________________________

Father Francisco Gonzalvo died on August 10, 1702. He had been transferred to San Xavier del Bac the previous year.
His first service was in southern Sonora, probably around 1688 or 1689. Believe he stayed there until around 1699 when he went with Father Kino and Father Visitor Antonio Leal into Papago country.

There is more information on the man, but it does not seem that important. I can provide sources if you like.

Take care,

Joe

Thank you for the correction, clearly 1711 was wrong and it was from memory, not a reference source. Antonio Leal was the other priest with Gonzalvo in the attempt to proselytize the Apaches, but I could not recall his name. Do you have the date of their attempt with the Apaches? thanks in advance,
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Thank you for the correction, clearly 1711 was wrong and it was from memory, not a reference source. Antonio Leal was the other priest with Gonzalvo in the attempt to proselytize the Apaches, but I could not recall his name. Do you have the date of their attempt with the Apaches? thanks in advance,
Roy

Roy,

Leal arrived at Dolores on Oct. 21,1699. He brought along Gonzalvo and the three started their trip three days later. I believe they were mistaken about the natives requesting their visit as being Apache.

I would recommend reading "Rim Of Christendom" by Bolton.....Starting on page 424.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Leal arrived at Dolores on Oct. 21,1699. He brought along Gonzalvo and the three started their trip three days later. I believe they were mistaken about the natives requesting their visit as being Apache.

I would recommend reading "Rim Of Christendom" by Bolton.....Starting on page 424.

Good luck,

Joe

Thanks for the suggestion, however consider this:

The history of Catholic missionary effort among the Apaches is a sad one. We find Franciscans at work among them as early as 1629, when Father Benavides founded Santa Clara de Capo on the border of the Apache country in New Mexico. Yet, though an Apache chief, Sanaba, had been converted to the faith, we hear of the tribe itself only as a despoiler of the Christian Pueblo Indians. At the beginning of the eighteenth century, the Jesuit missionaries of Upper California also came in contact with the Apaches. The latter frequently harassed the reservations near the Arizona frontier with a ferocity which gained for them the appellation of the Iroquois of the West. As a means of protecting their converts, the Jesuits attempted to convert the savage Apaches, and the celebrated Father Kino (Kuehn), cosmographer and missioner, undertook the task. He made such a favourable impression on them that they invited him to dwell among them, but his death shortly after frustrated the design, and we hear no more of Jesuit missions to the tribe. In 1733, Father Aponte y Lis, a Franciscan labouring on the Texan mission, devoted his best efforts to winning over the Apaches. He persuaded the Spanish Viceroy to lend material assistance, and finally, in 1757, San Saba and San Luis de Amarillas were established; but the nomadic Apaches refused to settle on reservations despite the efforts of Fathers Terreros, Santiesteban, Molina, and other Franciscans. Moreover, the neighbouring Indians resented the attempt to domesticate the Apaches near their homes, and murdered several of the fathers. Another mission, San Lorenzo on the Rio José, founded in 1761, was maintained for a few years by Fathers Ximenes and Baños. Out of some 3,000 Apaches they induced about 400 to settle at the mission, and baptized 80 persons in danger of death. Hopes of lasting results were now entertained, as the Apaches allowed their children to be instructed and their sick to be visited, but the Comanches destroyed the settlement in 1769. We read of no more organized work among the Apaches.

from the Catholic Encyclopedia

A side note here but notice that another attempt to convert Apaches occurred at San Saba in Texas; for our readers, a very famous mine or rather several silver mines are associated with the San Saba mission, and were possibly one of the sources of discontent among the Indians held at that mission. Or it could just be another coincidence of course.
Oroblanco

 

[sailaway]

The Lost Jesuit Gold of the Sierra Madre
Four bells, the largest weighing 28 arrobas and 17 pounds on which where inscribed Tayopa. One bell inscribed TAYOPA. One bell inscribed REMEDIOS. Weight 11 arrobas and 10 pounds.One small bell inscribed PIEDAD. Weight 5 arrobas. These bells were cast in 1603 by the Right Reverend Father Ignacio Maria de Retana.
One high cross of carved silver from the Tayopa mine, weight 1 arroba, 15 pounds, with an attached crucifix of hammered gold from the Paramo placer. A pair of processional candle holders and six bars of hammered silver, weighing 4 arrobas, 13 pounds from Santo Nino Mine. Four incensories of silver and gold plated, weighing 1 arroba, 3 pounds from the Cristo Mine. In a cut-stone box are stored jewelry. Box is buried in basement under room built of stone and mud, between the church and side of convent and fruit garden.

One large custody with silver bracket, weighing 1 arroba from Santo Nino Mine, with gold glimmer from placer El Paramo and four fine mounted stones from Remedios Mine. Two silver chalices from the Jesus Maria y Jose Mine, and twelve solid gold cups. Six gold plates made from the Jesus Maria y Jose Mine, and twelve solid gold cups. Six gold plates made from Cristo Mine and Purisima Mine, and two large communion plates of gold made from placer El Paramo. One shrine with four hammered silver columns weighing 4 arrobas from Senor de la Buena Muerto Mine.Sixty-five cargas [packloads] of silver packed in cow-hide bags, each containing 8 arrobas, 12 pounds. Eleven cargas of gold from four mines and placer El Paramo, each wrapped in cloth and cow-hide, with a total weight of 99 arrobas [2512 pounds]. Also 183 arrobas of Castilla ore, and 65 arrobas first-class Castilla ore from El Paramo, with a known assay of 22 carats, clean and without mercury.

For the knowledge of our Vicar General, I have written this to inform our Superior. This inventory, written by a Jesuit and sealed on 17 February, 1646, was found by Henry O. Flipper, the Spanish legal expert, surveyor and historian of mines and mining, in 1912. It tallies almost exactly with another of the same date which had been in the possession of the priest of Guadalupe de Santa Ana, a tiny village in Sonora, Mexico, and which came to light in 1927. Both are headed: A true and positive description of the mining camp Real of Our Lady of Guadalupe of Tayopa, made in January 1646, by the Right Reverend Father Guardian Fray, Francisco Villegas Garsina y Orosco, Royal Vicar-General of the Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of Saint Ignacio of Tayopa, and Jesuit of the Great Faculty of the Province of Sonora and Biscalla, whom my God keep long years.
The Lost Mines of Tayopa

 

[sailaway]

Better than this are the "Lue" Treasure and the Jesuit Treasure in the SAME mine or very close to each other?
I have read the maps and they both point to the same location.

Sierra de La Campana
"The Come Together Church Bell´s "

Story tells that is called "the bell´s sierra" (sierra de la campana), because during an apache attack to the Encinillas Hacienda, they robbed the chapel's bell, which was installed somewhere in the mountains. Apaches used to play it, while the people from the Hacienda looked for it, it was never found.

I propose that we are missing one map of the Peralta's stones.
The map should be "Sierra de la Campana" map.
The spot that the mine is in shows a tectonic bell.

Padres who shaped the area:
1519 the Gulf of Mexico Map by Alonso de Pineda
Padre Juan Rodrigues Cabrillo 1542 in new world was founder of the church in the America's.
Padre Andres de Olmos translated the indians in 1554 made it to San Diego de Alcala.
Padre Jaun de San Antonio 1555 followed Alvar Nunez Cabeza de Vaca's trail after De Vaca had been ship wrecked on Padre Island, Texas in 1527-1537. Later the Spanish wrecked on Padre Island in a storm in 1554 there were 5 padres on board.

I believe the statues on the chapels were Cabrillo and Olmos. By the time the churches were built they were saints.

 

[deducer]

Further investigation into St. Francis Xavier Parish shows that the architect was a J. Earl Trudeau, A.I.A., from Alhambra, CA. who worked out of Los Angeles and mainly designed churches. The church was built during the pastorship of Rev. Daniel J. Kelleher, S.J., (1955-1966), by Homes & Son's, Phoenix, AZ. The building was completed in 1958. These details should give some indications as to where to look for blueprints, or design features, to ascertain the origins of the third statue on the facade.

 

[Oroblanco]

The Lost Jesuit Gold of the Sierra Madre
Four bells, the largest weighing 28 arrobas and 17 pounds on which where inscribed Tayopa. One bell inscribed TAYOPA. One bell inscribed REMEDIOS. Weight 11 arrobas and 10 pounds.One small bell inscribed PIEDAD. Weight 5 arrobas. These bells were cast in 1603 by the Right Reverend Father Ignacio Maria de Retana.
One high cross of carved silver from the Tayopa mine, weight 1 arroba, 15 pounds, with an attached crucifix of hammered gold from the Paramo placer.A pair of processional.candle holders and six bars of hammered silver, weighing 4 arrobas, 13 pounds from Santo Nino Mine.Four incensories of silver and gold plated, weighing 1 arroba, 3 pounds from the Cristo Mine. In a cut-stone box are stored jewellery. Box is buried in basement under room built of stone and mud, between the church and side of convent and fruit garden.

One large custody with silver bracket, weighing 1 arroba from Santo Nino Mine, with gold glimmer from placer El Paramo and four fine mounted stones from Remedios Mine.Two silver chalices from the Jesus Maria y Jose Mine, and twelve solid gold cups. Six gold plates made from the Jesus Maria y Jose Mine, and twelve solid gold cups. Six gold plates made from Cristo Mine and Purisima Mine, and two large communion plates of gold made from placer El Paramo.One shrine with four hammered silver columns weighing 4 arrobas from Senor de la Buena Muerto Mine.Sixty-five cargas [packloads] of silver packed in cow-hide bags, each containing 8 arrobas, 12 pounds. Eleven cargas of gold from four mines and placer El Paramo, each wrapped in cloth and cow-hide, with a total weight of 99 arrobas [2512 pounds].Also 183 arrobas of Castilla ore, and 65 arrobas first-class Castilla ore from El Paramo, with a know assay of 22 carats, clean and without mercury.

For the knowledge of our Vicar General, I have written this to inform our Superior. This inventory, written by a Jesuit and sealed on 17 February, 1646, was found by Henry O. Flipper, the Spanish legal expert, surveyor and historian of mines and mining, in 1912. It tallies almost exactly with another of the same date which had been in the possession of the priest of Guadalupe de Santa Ana, a tiny village in Sonora, Mexico, and which came to light in 1927. Both are headed: A true and positive description of the mining camp Real of Our Lady of Guadalupe of Tayopa, made in January 1646, by the Right Reverend Father Guardian Fray, Francisco Villegas Garsina y Orosco, Royal Vicar-General of the Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of Saint Ignacio of Tayopa, and Jesuit of the Great Faculty of the Province of Sonora and Biscalla, whom my God keep long years.
The Lost Mines of Tayopa

The Inventory of Tayopa - a prime example of the kinds of documents which EARLIER treasure hunters WERE able to find, and which today are not found among the historical archives, which led some modern historians to then conclude that they never existed! Tayopa is one of the most difficult lost mine legends to document, in part due to the age, being SO long ago that most documentation which undoubtedly did once exist, has vanished, scattered among various treasure hunters or curiosity seekers. In fact many Tayopa-hunters of an earlier age told of how each Indio of the area around Tayopa, each had their "own" Tayopa document! In some cases this was done with an eye to protect and preserve the documents, however the effect was that virtually all are now lost.

To me, it is even more strange that so many skeptics today now view the Tayopa inventory as a fake! They point to the queer ways things are said, or the terms used etc as if this would prove it a fake. Having seen a number of Spanish documents from the 1600s, I don't see anything unusual about this one other than the great luck and foresight that Henry O. Flipper decided NOT to keep the document a secret! I see no reason to suppose it a fake; Flipper has shared it with the public, yet he failed to find Tayopa itself, the names are not commonly known Jesuits but they do turn up; the date even coincides with a very chaotic period of Jesuit history in Mexico, for it is "coincidentally" the very period when bishop Palafox was raising a stink about their habit of amassing wealth and property. It is quite possible that Tayopa mine complex is the rich silver mines referred to by Palafox in fact, and this inventory may have been done either by his order, or in response to some official order for an accounting.

The inventory lists BELLS of which Tayopa was quite famous at one time for the sweetness of their cast bells, which had a sizable silver content and which got distributed quite far from their point of origin. Bells were Church property and not subject to taxation as bullion. One of these bells made it all the way to Sitka Alaska, though a fire may have destroyed it, it was famous there for some time. <I have been trying to locate a photo of this particular bell>

As to the Peralta stones, there are several threads dedicated to that topic, which is where they probably should be discussed IMHO as this topic is addressing the question of Jesuit treasures, whether fact or fiction.

Last point on the Tayopa document, which sounds quite impressive, yet if you work it out on paper, it is not on a par with some of the Spanish mines nor the massive amounts of treasure shipped by the Spanish treasure fleets. It is easy to see how someone reading this gets an inflated idea of what it really represents, which would fit in ONE ship smaller than a typical Galleon.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[sailaway]

The problem with translation of Spanish.
Spanish dialects and varieties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Just like in the Dominican Republic they had a hard time believing I had never been there before. Customs held me for hours talking to me in Spanish. They claimed I spoke better Spanish than any American they had come across,(even though I think my Spanish is not that great), you see the Men that founded Hispaniola were from the same town I was raised in Spain. The first town in Americas was on Columbus's first voyage after sinking the Santa Maria, the town of Isabella was built from her timbers. Thus I spoke with the same dialect as the original founders.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Just Listening Ladies & Gentlemen:

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[sailaway]

Here is a rock with the year 1568 on it from the Superstition Mountains
The problem with bells that weigh more than 600 pounds is that they must have been made for salvage dives.
The diving bell is one of the earliest types of equipment for underwater work and exploration. Its use was first described by Aristotle in the 4th century BC.
In 1535, Guglielmo de Lorena created and used what is considered to be the first modern diving bell.

 

[gollum]

JEEEEEEEEZ! I HATE TAKING TIME AWAY AND COMING BACK TO A THREAD OF MINE THAT TOOK OFF! HAHAHA Too much info to cogitate at one go, but here we go:

deducer,

I don't know you. You seem intelligent, and your posts show that you can string a sentence together. LOL Let me tell you that even though Joe (Cactusjumper) and I sometimes disagree to great levels (and this is one of those subjects), you don't have the history here to question his bonafides (history of research). If you knew Joe's history over several forums (as some of us that have been around a while do), you wouldn't make yourself look foolish by smartassedly questioning his research of this subject. Joe is in intelligent guy that has been around this subject a long time. He is a wealth of information that you would do well to try and have access to. Although we heatedly disagree sometimes, I will stand behind him when someone nobody here knows gets on him. I will leave it at that.

Saint Francis Xavier Parish Church:

I see that the brochure you posted says Junipero Serra, but a time ago (on another forum), well...... read it for yourself:

DesertUSA.com/mb3 ? View topic - ROJAS' SILVER BELL

I can see that the hairdo looks like the Franciscan Toilet Lid, but you should ask yourself: "Why would a Jesuit Church, in a Jesuit Parish place a statue of a Franciscan Friar that had ZERO to do with the Jesuit Order (he came along after the suppression and founded the Alta California Missions) in a place of prominence like it is?" Can you show me one example of a Jesuit Edifice displaying anything but Jesuit likenesses and symbolism? Why wouldn't they have put some other Jesuit there? Hell, even put Capt (later General) Juan Mateo Manje up there as he accompanied Kino on most of his jornadas? Sounds like the church got tired of treasure hunters asking about the silver bell, and came up with an alternative story.

Joe,

I know this is beating that dead horse, buuuut............. you say that while the Jesuits may have been miners in Central and South America, you don't believe they were in Northern New Spain. So, you are telling me that you SERIOUSLY believe the Jesuits acted in a completely different manner there than anywhere else in the New World? Cooooome on now!

Fake 1691 Kino Ingots:

The chemistry of the ingots underlies this fact, given that the association of the specific metals contained herein are not natural. It is further emphasized by the direct tie of this specific alloy to a man made, constructed metal alloy used in modern times, thought to be developed after about 1940. These two bars were clearly made in a manner to look like silver, feel like silver, and weigh like silver. They were thus made to deceive.

THAT quote tell me two things:

1. The bars are not silver.

2. They are very crude looking bars. They look like bad copies. What were they copied from?

I have pictures of dozens of silver bars of all shapes and sizes sent to me because of my website and my presence on many treasure hunting forums. Several of them were tested to be REAL silver (and gold in some cases). Most of them were found in collections or were passed on after someone's death. Counterfeit $20 bills are copies of authentic $20 bills, just as I believe the 1691 Kino Ingots are copies of authentic Kino Ingots.

In and of themselves, silver and gold bars are not conclusive proof of Jesuit Mining. The Jesuits had the largest (and most profitable) sugar refineries, sheepherds, horse ranches, etc in the New World. They did millions of dollars in business without mining. Jesuits selling food and supplies to miners, as well as miners tithing and donating raw gold and silver is the source of much of their wealth. So, even this "LEGAL" wealth was absent when all the good Fathers were rounded up on the night of 25-26 June 1767.

Just forget mining for a moment, and think about my previous statement. I don't think even Joe or Lamar would try and dispute the fact that the Jesuits amassed great wealth due to their extraordinary business acumen. Records available right now show herds of sheep, cattle, and horses greater than any other. WHERE did all that money go? Just a thought.

Best - Mike

 

[gollum]

..... a little more about Treasure Bars and the Holabird Article;

It talks a little about since we have recovered many silver and gold bars from several shipwrecks since these bars have popped up, the fact they don't look alike is further proof of their fakery. Not so at all. I have the best book available on the subject: "Spanish Treasure Bars From New World Shipwrecks" by Craig & Richards. The bars Holabird is talking about are "OFFICIAL" bars. Meaning bars that have been smelted and marked at a mint after taking the crown's portion. Holabird fails to mention the many odd bars that were found as well. Many wedge shaped bars, that can only be guessed that they were made to fit in a false bottom of a barrel and covered with something. In other words: Illegal Contraband Bars. Unmarked. No government seals or fineness marks. Not on the ship's manifest.

One mark common to almost all suspected Jesuit Treasure Bars is the Cross and "V". For more on the Cross and "V" see my post:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...esuit-treasures-they-real-46.html#post3747474

The smaller treasure bars we see here are rough smelted in the field. They are called dore (door-ee) bars. The gold ones typically run 60-70% pure, silver a little higher. Look again at the pic of the known fake Kino Ingot, and look at the detail in most of these. These were also real silver. Not made to look and feel like silver.



This last bar is one of 1028 found by Chuck Kenworthy just highway 19 South of Tucson, Az. The hole in the ground is still there. This is one of the bars that I have 100% faith in.



....and last; while you may not place great stock in the "Bay of Plenty Times" or "The West Australian", I think a little more dignity is due "The Canadian Law Journal"



I have seen myself, all the evidence I need to prove beyond doubt that Jesuit Treasures exist. If the Jesuits amassed 70 million escudos in gold coins in Brazil, what was to stop them from doing the same everywhere else they worked? NOTHING! Like I said previously, FORGET ABOUT ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES! Just concentrate on where the millions went that they legally amassed. In ther year they were under close watch, they could not have made any huge shipments to Rome or Manilla. When they were rounded up, none of that wealth was there. It was still in the ground in 1891 in Rio. Who is to say that it is not still hidden today?

Best - Mike

 

[deducer]

Saint Francis Xavier Parish Church:

I see that the brochure you posted says Junipero Serra, but a time ago (on another forum), well...... read it for yourself:

DesertUSA.com/mb3 ? View topic - ROJAS' SILVER BELL

I can see that the hairdo looks like the Franciscan Toilet Lid, but you should ask yourself: "Why would a Jesuit Church, in a Jesuit Parish place a statue of a Franciscan Friar that had ZERO to do with the Jesuit Order (he came along after the suppression and founded the Alta California Missions) in a place of prominence like it is?" Can you show me one example of a Jesuit Edifice displaying anything but Jesuit likenesses and symbolism? Why wouldn't they have put some other Jesuit there? Hell, even put Capt (later General) Juan Mateo Manje up there as he accompanied Kino on most of his jornadas? Sounds like the church got tired of treasure hunters asking about the silver bell, and came up with an alternative story.

Hello Mike and welcome back to the debate.

In regard to the debate on whether the 3rd statue is Rojas or Serra, you may want to start reading here.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

How we judge people on Internet sites is often completely the opposite of who they are in person. It was a pleasure and an honor to meet you in person at the Rendezvous. I have tried to get you out there each and every year and was more than pleased when you showed up.

Thank you, and the others, who have supported me lately. Deducer is right to question my "facts", which is something I have always urged everyone to do. Sometimes I even question myself. Unfortunately, I just don't have the ability to go right to the books that have those answers, without considerable mental effort.

Once again, many thanks to you and the others who really know me and will speak their minds......Good or bad.

Take care my friend,

Joe