JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

deducer said:
I have mentioned elsewhere that I suspect Fr. Carlos de Rojas (of Arizpe) of being a major player in matters related to mining or Jesuit treasure in general.

Enter exhibit A:

View attachment 972096

which is the facade of St. Francis Xavier Parish in Phoenix, AZ.

The three figures are: On top, Ignatius Loyola. To his right, Eusebio Kino, and to his left, Fr. Carlos de Rojas (your right, when looking at the picture).

The fact that the statue is Fr. Rojas is confirmed by a few sources, one of who is a poster, Joey W. who related elsewhere that:



This was furthermore confirmed by Jim Hatt, who had his own, separate, source.

Now, imagine my surprise when I found out that the St. Francis Xavier Parish is now denying that it is Fr. Rojas, and this is confirmed by their church brochure. They are now claiming that the statue on your right, in the picture above, is of the Franciscan monk, Junipero Serra, even though it looks absolutely nothing like the real Serra. Please find below, exhibit B and C, two different statues of the real Serra who you will notice bears no resemblance to what is on the facade:

View attachment 972098View attachment 972099

Note on both authentic Serra statues, the Franciscan habit with its typical simple white rope going down the right side of the statues, as well as the oversized cowl.

This is not so on the statue on your right on the facade in the first picture. That statue is also wearing Jesuit beads that are exactly identical to the beads that Kino has in his right hand, on the other side of the facade.

Now why should the Parish lie so blatantly about something like this?

What did Rojas do to incur such drastic behavior?

Also, one another thing- the Parish is claiming that the bell below the statue is the "El Camino Real mission bell," (per the brochure). As if Serra has anything to do with a bell, never mind one with sprues still attached.

Furthermore, "El Camino Real" as we know it, isn't a mission, but the King's highway, connecting 21 missions in Alta California. None of them are named "El Camino Real."

On the other hand, we do know the story of Rojas and the silver bell.
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deducer,

Good to see you providing such reliable sources as, Jim Hatt and Joey W. Did they happen to tell you when the Jesuits changed Father Rojas for Father Serra? :dontknow:

Thank you,

Joe Ribaudo
 

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cactusjumper said:
deducer,

Good to see you providing such reliable sources as, Jim Hatt and Joey W. Did they happen to tell you when the Jesuits changed Father Rojas for Father Serra? :dontknow:

Thank you,

Joe Ribaudo
Click to expand...

Are you calling Jim and Joey, liars?
 

deducer said:
Are you calling Jim and Joey, liars?
Click to expand...

deducer,

Well......I don't really know Joey, but I said: "Good to see you providing such reliable sources as, Jim Hatt and Joey W."

I assume from your sidestepping my question, you don't know the answer.

On the other hand, why would you say: "Now why should the Parish lie so blatantly about something like this?":dontknow:

The Parish might take offense to that statement of "fact". It could be that they know more about those statues than you, Jim Hatt and Joey W. It could also be that someone is mistaken.

One last thing.....El Camino Real Mission Bell is a common phrase and object.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

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Oroblanco said:
Thank you for posting the picture and description. I have not addressed your contention about the statue previously as I do not know the details, but on doing a little checking it does appear that statue now claimed to be Serra, a Franciscan, was formerly not considered Serra but Rojas or Roxas. It is odd that they would depict Serra a Fransican, standing beneath a Jesuit and next to a Jesuit, beneath the Jesuit coat of arms after all. If you have more info and can pinpoint when this identification was changed, I would like to see it.


A side point here Deducer, but as you pointed out, this statue is remarkably not like other statues of father Serra; he is usually depicted holding a tall cross or staff, and always with the large cowl neck habit, not like the one in your photo of that statue in the facade. It is also notable that one of the symbols of St Francis Xavier (a prominent Jesuit) is a bell. If you have any other photos of that facade, so that we might study the statue in question more closely, I would very much appreciate it.
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In a majority of the likeness of Serra, whether statue, painting, or illustration, he is depicted as having a simple wood staff.

The one instance he is depicted as having a cross similar to the one on the facade is the statue at the Carmel mission, and even then, the cross is a simple wooden one.

Here is a closeup of a Serra statue:

statue-of-father-junipero-serra-spanish-franciscan-missionary-san-diego-mission.jpg

For me, this doesn't pass the eye test.

If someone who lives in Phoenix could go there and take a high quality photo, we might be able to do a more accurate comparison.

Or we could try to find a likeness of Rojas, which I can't find anywhere.
 

cactusjumper said:
deducer,

Well......I don't really know Joey, but I said: "Good to see you providing such reliable sources as, Jim Hatt and Joey W."

I assume from your sidestepping my question, you don't know the answer.

On the other hand, why would you say: "Now why should the Parish lie so blatantly about something like this?":dontknow:

The Parish might take offense to that statement of "fact". It could be that they know more about those statues than you, Jim Hatt and Joey W. It could also be that someone is mistaken.

One last thing.....El Camino Real Mission Bell is a common phrase and object.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
Click to expand...


I have no reason to assume they were lying about this or made this up.

If you can come up with proof that the statue was always intended to be Serra, including prior to the building of the facade, I will gladly retract my theory.

Serra is best known for founding missions. I think it would probably be too much to expect a straight answer from you as to why there is a bell under his feet instead of a mission symbol. He was never known for being associated with bells.

Also you are wrong in your assumption that El Camino Real Mission Bell is a common phrase or object. However, the El Camino Real Mission Bells are well known as a project that began in August of 1906 with the goal of putting a bell in front of each mission on El Camino Real. This was achieved by 1913.
 

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deducer said:
I have no reason to assume they were lying about this or made this up.

If you can come up with proof that the statue was always intended to be Serra, including prior to the building of the facade, I will gladly retract my theory.

Serra is best known for founding missions. I think it would probably be too much to expect a straight answer from you as to why there is a bell under his feet instead of a mission symbol. He was never known for being associated with bells.

Also you are wrong in your assumption that El Camino Real Mission Bell is a common phrase or object. However, the El Camino Real Mission Bells are well known as a project that began in August of 1906 with the goal of putting a bell in front of each mission on El Camino Real. This was achieved by 1913.
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deducer,

This is a picture of a "Camino Real Mission Bell":

https://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/3930696312/

I do know a little about Father Serra. The following picture is from a Century Magazine article published in 1883:



From the same article comes these quotes:

"Father Junipero's most insatiable passion was for baptizing Indians."

[Serra directed the soldiers to hang a large bronze bell on an oak tree. Fr. Serra rang the bell while loudly calling for all “gentiles” to come and receive the faith of Jesus Christ.
Fr. Pieras was confused by what he was observing, asking Serra, “Why do you tire yourself here if this is not to be the spot where the mission is to be built? ... There is no [Indian] nearby. Why waste time ringing the bell?”
Fr. Serra is reported to have replied, “Let me give vent to my heart which desires that this bell might be heard around the world.”]

Read more here: http://www.sanluisobispo.com/2013/10/26/2752227/junipero-serra-wanted-the-whole.html#storylink=cpy
I do manage to stumble across some old material in my shoddy research.

Joe Ribaudo
 

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deducer said:
Correct, a Camino Real Mission Bell, one of the 450 bells commissioned for the 1906 project, not "the mission bell of El Camino Real" because there is no such thing.

What do those bells, which were commissioned in 1906, have to do with Serra anyway?
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deducer,

How do I know. You are the one who started this line of the conversation. It's THE BELL.....One of many. How much clarification do you need in a simple church brochure?

Joe Ribaudo
 

cactusjumper said:
From the same article comes these quotes:

"Father Junipero's most insatiable passion was for baptizing Indians."

[Serra directed the soldiers to hang a large bronze bell on an oak tree. Fr. Serra rang the bell while loudly calling for all “gentiles” to come and receive the faith of Jesus Christ.
Fr. Pieras was confused by what he was observing, asking Serra, “Why do you tire yourself here if this is not to be the spot where the mission is to be built? ... There is no [Indian] nearby. Why waste time ringing the bell?”
Fr. Serra is reported to have replied, “Let me give vent to my heart which desires that this bell might be heard around the world.”]

Read more here: Junipero Serra wanted the whole world to hear the mission bell | Times Past | SanLuisObispo.com
I do manage to stumble across some old material in my shoddy research.

Joe Ribaudo
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You left out the 2nd part of that article which I already had come across, namely the reason for the article itself:

The San Luis Obispo Mission Museum docents recently made a trip to the Huntington Library’s Junipero Serra Tercentennial Exhibit. Steve Hackel, the curator of the exhibit, has gathered Serra-related materials from the island of Mallorca where Serra was born, from Serra’s time in Mexico and from his service as Father-President of the Franciscan missions in Baja and Alta California.

The exhibit titled “Junípero Serra and the Legacies of the California Missions” closes on Jan. 6, 2014. I urge readers to travel to San Marino, next door to Pasadena. The Huntington has always been a spectacular place to visit with its beautiful grounds and permanent art collection. The Serra exhibit makes it a must for anyone who wants to understand California’s beginnings.

On Wednesday, Nov. 6, at 7 p.m. in the beautifully rehabilitated Parish Hall at Mission San Luis Obispo, my colleague, Dr. Robert Hoover, will make a presentation on “Junipero Serra at Mission San Antonio de Padua.” No single scholar knows more about Mission San Antonio than Bob Hoover.

In 1976, Bob started the Cal Poly-sponsored Summer Field Archaeology School at Mission San Antonio de Padua. His students included prominent archaeologists like Julia Costello, Georgia Lee and Jack Williams. It quickly became the cutting edge of California Mission archaeology. Bob is also an outstanding presenter. It’s appropriate that he be the keynote speaker for our Mission’s celebration of Junipero Serra’s Tercentennial.

Read more here: Junipero Serra wanted the whole world to hear the mission bell | Times Past | SanLuisObispo.com
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Deducer! Enough. You are obviously very intelligent, quite educated, and must certainly have a glorious library. But, your attacks are not attractive.
 

Well Oro, it's been fun, but I'm moving on from this thread for the time being. I've explained my position and until something significant surfaces that adds substance to the discussion, I don't have much more to say. I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to 'convince' people of, but you are a strong apologist for your beliefs, that's for sure.

I'd be glad to flesh out my 'Jesuit model', but I'm only looking at bones right now. My views on things change when better ideas replace weaker ones, and the Superstitions venue is a case in point. Of course, my interest in Arizona events are most important to me when they shed light here in the Gila headwaters area. This is where I'm vested. For example, a nameless source recently suggested to me that Kino spent undocumented time in southern New Mexico, possibly as far east as the Rio Grande. Any comments from you or other readers would be appreciated. You may disagree with me, but it's my current belief that the major southwestern treasure legends are, at their source, all unified and heavily corrupted with disinformation (the oldest trick in the book).
 

Morning Springfield, Corrupted, yes, obviously, but 'not' necessarily untrue. I am a bit curious, can anyone post a bit of history that isn't corrupted ?

At the moment we seem to be arguing just how many Angels of what degree can be suported on the head of a pin.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Hi Springfield

You wrote
For example, a nameless source recently suggested to me that Kino spent undocumented time in southern New Mexico, possibly as far east as the Rio Grande. Any comments from you or other readers would be appreciated
Click to expand...
I have a part of a text which is related to the southern NM .

text.JPG
 

Joe

I don't remember the source . But for sure is authentic .
 

Joe

Just I know . If is not enough for you and others , just IGNORE it .
 

Marius,

One place the letter is mentioned is "Spirits of the Border" by Connie Wang. I believe it was published in 2003. I will look at the book when I get home this afternoon and see if they give a source for the letter.

Take care,

Joe
 

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