JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Oroblanco]

Seasons greetings amigos,

SWR wrote

Here ya go. Already posted, but happy to re-post. I'll even use annoying bold, as you always seem to do

The Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents Travels and Explorations of the Jesuit Missionaries in New France 1610—1791

General Prefix - "In short, no pains have been, or will be, spared to render all possible service to scholars, in the present work. <snip>

Are you serious? That disclaimers concerning minor errors equates to PROVING THE CONTENT IS A LIE? You really believe that? I would laugh here but as it is possible that you truly DO believe it, that would be simply sad.


Oh and SWR - I don't want to hear another word of complaint from you, about how long MY posts are, when your friend Lamar's have beaten my own for sheer length and number of words on many occasions, yet we never see you once complain about those. I wonder why? Hmm....?

Gollum wrote

So, basically, what this entire exercise proves to me is that there are some people who will never believe, no matter what evidence is presented them, in the idea of Jesuits doing ANYTHING bad or anything that netted them great wealth.

Sad but true - some have a cherished belief in the utter saintliness of those Jesuits, and certainly some of them were very good men indeed. Whom is so naive as to believe that every single one of them, from the General to the lowliest monk Lay Brother was equally altruistic? Apparently some folks are quite willing to, in the face of what ever amount of testimony and evidence to the contrary.

Cactusjumper wrote

I fear I many be graduating to the level of "ignorance", as I don't see a single thing in your post(s) that would qualify as incontrovertible. No doubt that is just a personal failing on my part.

I will continue to follow your evidence, as well as Roy's and Beth's, in an attempt to become educated on the matter.

Since it is still suspect in your mind, the logical thing to do would be to locate evidence and/or testimony(ies) to disprove these allegations.

SWR wrote <replying to our mutual amigo Gollum>

In the quote you supplied, Father Och did not say, specifically, the Jesuits were mining or hiding huge hordes of treasure.

Neither did Mike say that the Jesuits were hiding huge hordes of treasure, that is your interpretation of his comment.

SWR also wrote

There is absolutly nothing in the above quote that would lead on to believe the Jesuit's were mining gold/silver or caching it, to be recovered later.

Perhaps you are unaware that simply picking up pieces of ore (or metal, or gems) from the natural surface of the ground does qualify as mining in the sense that it is harvesting the mineral.

Merry Christmas to you all,
Oroblanco

 

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[Oroblanco]

SWR thank you, and my apologies for my disrespectful comments earlier.

 

[Oroblanco]

Seasons greetings,

While this material is in fact referring to areas outside of Mexico/Arizona, <Argentina> the source carries excellent pedigree, and further shows testimony of Jesuit activities (mining) in the Americas. Also is a clarification concerning the Aragoneses, which is not a family surname but refers to the two Jesuit Lay Brothers (monks) named earlier.

The following little scrap of history in regard to the mines of Rioja has been furnished to the Buenos Ayres Standard and may be interesting

The Famatina mines seem to have been worked by the Incas many of the workings being certainly over 200 years old and yet no tradition exists respecting them. It is well known that mines were systematically worked by the Jesuits of Nonogasta who are supposed to have taken out vast Quantities of treasure most of it being devoted to the decoration of churches at Rioja and other places. Shortly before the expulsion of the Fathers in 1776 they destroyed so completely every trace of their working that the exact site is still a mystery.

Arragonesa takes its name from two natives of Arragon who used to sell great lots of silver but would never allow any one to follow them to their mine Just as they were preparing to return to Spain with a large fortune one of them was shot for a spy the other dying shortly afterwards of grief and taking his secret to the grave No one has ever discovered the scene of their labors although close on 100 years have elapsed

The date of Jesuit expulsion is obviously incorrect and may very well be a simple typographical error - 1776 instead of 1767, misplacing a number. Otherwise the info agrees with what I have found in other sources concerning Jesuit mines in Argentina. The statement is absolute about the Jesuits systematically working the mines, but is supposition concerning how much wealth they succeeded in extracting. I would point out the example posted earlier of the La Compania church in Quito, displaying seven tons of gold, but obviously that is quite some distance away.

Oh - almost forgot, this is extracted from, Reports from the consuls of the United States, Issues 81-84
By United States. Bureau of Foreign Commerce, 1887 pp 313.
Wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[<Don Juan Palafox Briefe an Papst Innozenz X Frankfort and Leipzig 1773 pp 7-9, letter of May 25th 1647 from John Palafox Bishop of Los Angeles wrote to Pope Innocent X >published in Fourteen years a Jesuit: a record of personal experience by Paul Hoensbroech (Graf von) pp 87, 1911

Now will you believe a Catholic Bishop when he says that the Jesuits had silver mines in America, in 1647?]

Bishop Palafox was an arch-enemy of the Jesuit's and their missions. In truth, the Jesuits were surrounded by such people. I would suggest you pick another shining example to hang these charges on the Jesuits. By todays laws, we would have thrown the Jesuits into jails. In their time, they held back the natural inclinations of the Spaniards to rape, pillage and enslave the native populations.

Take care,

Joe

 

[ghostdog]

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,260595.msg1858775.html#msg1858775

Gollum, I posted this a while back, under treasure leads,I think it may apply here to this thread, so I repost it here again. On another issue,my opinon, when the Jesuits were expelled,there were hundreds of Jesuit missions, sub-missions,outpots, Jesuit run Indian villages,and a lot in very remote areas.
The news that they were expelled traveled faster than the Soldiers used to do the dirty work. My guess is the Jesuits buried a lot of their documents ,Church relics, and mines they were working,long before there pursewers{hahah} showed up. Its also possible some of the missions might have been dismantled altogether, and I think also the Soldiers never even bothered to chase down the remote Jesuit outposts.
So in my thoughts there are a lot of Jesuit stashes out there yet to be uncovered, in all forms of Treasure. Just maybe ? a lot of copper/gold or silver sealed tubes/boxes with documents enclosed.

 

[gollum]

Joe,

PLEASE reread my post with the quote of Father Och SJ where he openly admits to PLACER MINING, by sending his Indians to gather copper enough to make EIGHT BELLS. Joe, you have a good bit of knowledge, and in any book, if you found a rich source of any material just laying on the surface, what would that be called? Maybe PLACER? To gather up a PLACER DEPOSIT of copper (or any mineral) would then be called PLACER MINING. PLACER MINING was just as verboten for JEsuits as was HARDROCK MINING! THIS statement PROVES INCONTROVERTIBLY (because it is his own admission) that Father Och SJ committed the sin of breaking his oath of obedience by PLACER MINING copper.

He also committed the sin of breaking his vow of obedience by displaying an intimate knowledge of MINING by smelting the copper. How do we know he did that? He stated that there was some gold in it. THERE IS NO WAY OF KNOWING THAT THERE WAS SOME GOLD IN THE COPPER WITHOUT PUTTING IT THROUGH THE REFINING PROCESS!

-------------------------------------------------NOW-------------------------------------------------------​

Here is where an attorney sums up his arguments in a way so the jury can easily see that his argument is the strongest case!

There is a very good reason that I have gone to such great lengths to show and acknowledge other peoples' contributions that show time and again, individual instances of Jesuits (to the blind eye) breaking their vows of obedience by showing both direct and indirect knowledge of mining.

I have also shown you beyond doubt that a Jesuits' Vow of Obedience was/is the most important vow there is. I have shown that it was SO important, Saint Ignatious Loyola wrote a paper about the importance of OBEDIENCE that is read monthly in every Jesuit House.

I assume that everybody here has seen the movie "A Few Good Men". If you haven't, then you should rent it, because I am going to the exact same place Tom Cruise went in his argument to Jack Nicholson!

KAFFEE
We'll get to the airmen in just a minute,
sir. A moment ago said that you ordered
Kendrick to order his men not to touch
Santiago.

JESSEP
That's right.

KAFFEE
And Kendrick was clear on what you wanted?


JESSEP
Crystal.

KAFFEE
Any chance Kendrick ignored the order?

JESSEP
Ignored the order?

KAFFEE
Any chance he just forgot about it?

JESSEP
No.

KAFFEE
Any chance Kendrick left your office and
said, "The 'old man's wrong"?

JESSEP
No.

KAFFEE
When Kendrick spoke to the platoon and
ordered them not to touch Santiago, any
chance they ignored him?

JESSEP
Have you ever spent time in an infantry
unit, son?

KAFFEE
No sir.

JESSEP
Ever served in a forward area?

KAFFEE
No sir.

JESSEP
Ever put your life in another man's hands,
ask him to put his life in yours?

KAFFEE
No sir.

JESSEP
We follow orders, son. We follow orders
or people die. It's that simple. Are we
clear?

KAFFEE
Yes sir.

JESSEP
Are we clear?


KAFFEE
Crystal.

KAFFEE speaks with the quiet confidence that comes from
knowing you're about to drop your opponents

KAFFEE
(continuing; beat)
Colonel, I have just one more question
before I call Airman O'Malley and Airman
Perez: If you gave an order that Santiago
wasn't to be touched, and your orders are
always followed, then why would he be in
danger, why would it be necessary to
transfer him off the base?

And JESSEP has no answer.

Nothing.

He sits there, and for the first time, seems to be lost.

JESSEP
Private Santiago was a sub-standard
marine. He was being transferred off the
base because--

KAFFEE
But that's not what you said. You said he
was being transferred because he was in
grave danger.

JESSEP
(pause)
Yes. That's correct, but--

KAFFEE
You said, "He was in danger". I said,
"Grave danger". You said--

JESSEP
Yes, I recall what--

KAFFEE
I can have the Court Reporter read back
your--

JESSEP
I know what I said. I don't need it read
back to me like I'm a damn--

KAFFEE
Then why the two orders?
(beat)
Colonel?
(beat)
Why did you--


JESSEP
Sometimes men take matters into their own
hands.

KAFFEE
No sir. You made it clear just a moment
ago that your men never take matters into
their own hands. Your men follow orders
or people die. So Santiago shouldn't have
been in any dangor at all, should he have,
Colonel?

Everyone's sweating now. Everyone but KAFFEE.

JESSEP
You little ba$tard.

OBEDIENCE to both the Pope and the Order of Jesus was/is the most important vow an initiate can take! The chances of Jesuits doing something as PERPETUALLY DAMNING as committing a sin of breaking an ECCLESIASTICAL PRECEPT and by doing so, breaking their most important Vow of Obedience, to me, is almost nill! I don't believe for a second that they did any such thing! I firmly believe that everything the Jesuits did in regards to mining was done in accordance with orders from on high. Those orders (along with everything else that was supposed to remain private in all matters concerning Jesuit) was written about in code, as instructed in several of the Precepts over about a 100 year period. When higher ranking Jesuits learned that some Frontier Priests not only hadn't encoded their private letters, but also kept them, ordered that they be immediately burned (as others have already done).

Merry Christmas-Mike

 

[ghostdog]

Reply, to think that the Jesuits followed their Superior"s edics in their far removed new envirements is totally inane. They did as they pleased and passed only the imformation they wanted to their far removed Supervisor"s. After all independence breeds independence. If they got caught they just tried to backpeddle it to make it look right. The soldiers stationed with them bacame just as independent. They all lived and interacted with the Indians in many ways and some were absorbed into the tribes and visa versa. This is like the invaders of China who bacame more Chinese. To end this diatribe I say again there is plenty of Jesuit treasure to be uncovered, just find their old settlements, water holes and old maps will be a big help in locateing these long lost settlements.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"OBEDIENCE to both the Pope and the Order of Jesus was/is the most important vow an initiate can take! The chances of Jesuits doing something as PERPETUALLY DAMNING as committing a sin of breaking an ECCLESIASTICAL PRECEPT and by doing so, breaking their most important Vow of Obedience, to me, is almost nill! I don't believe for a second that they did any such thing! I firmly believe that everything the Jesuits did in regards to mining was done in accordance with orders from on high. Those orders (along with everything else that was supposed to remain private in all matters concerning Jesuit) was written about in code, as instructed in several of the Precepts over about a 100 year period. When higher ranking Jesuits learned that some Frontier Priests not only hadn't encoded their private letters, but also kept them, ordered that they be immediately burned (as others have already done)."

That does seem to be a problem.......if you believe that each and every Jesuit was a slave to the orders of any man. While that was likely true for the majority, it would be naive to believe it was so in every single case. After all, the Jesuits were just imperfect men in a final analyses. That truth is shown a number of times in their own writings.

Good luck finding and digging up all those Jesuit mines and treasures.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL? <Very long post>

Seasons greetings,
This is a very long reply, so I must beg your indulgence.

Cactusjumper wrote

Bishop Palafox was an arch-enemy of the Jesuit's and their missions. In truth, the Jesuits were surrounded by such people. I would suggest you pick another shining example to hang these charges on the Jesuits.

Why should I choose someone with less authority than a Catholic Bishop? Are you sure that Palafox was the arch-enemy of the Jesuits prior to his learning of their activities? Of course if Palafox were enemies with the Jesuits before, without good reason then of course we could then view all of his letters complaining about them with some suspicion. The Jesuits seem to have over-reacted to his charges and this is their reaction every time any kind of accusations are raised against them - the person (or institution) making the charges must be their "arch-enemy" with burning hatred etc etc and don't forget to toss in anti-Catholic, though when those charges arise from within the same church, we have to skip that part. Is it not just possible that Bishop Palafox's apparent animosity towards the Jesuits was due to what he had found the situation to be? Pope Innocent in fact supported most of his charges against the Jesuits, which ought to tell us something. Do you impeach Palafox and dismiss his testimony? If anyone who ever complained about the Jesuits we are to dismiss as "enemies of the Jesuits" then the whole case is completely one-sided. Can you imagine a court case, in which anyone who testified against the accused were to be dismissed on the grounds that they were enemies? Imagine how the Nuremburg trials would have proceeded. Oh well, perhaps we can't sway your view Joe.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Good luck finding and digging up all those Jesuit mines and treasures.

Okay "Lamar" . Some of those Jesuit mines have already been found, even in Arizona. One I would rather not name, another has already been pointed out. Of course since the Society denies ever having any such mines, it is totally safe from any legal claims from them for ownership of any and all minerals, or any metals already produced which may be found right? I am surprised that Father Polzer's own admission that two Jesuits were caught mining and punished for it would not have convinced you that at least some of them were mining, and if they were mining there must needs have been MINES as well.

Gollum wrote

"OBEDIENCE to both the Pope and the Order of Jesus was/is the most important vow an initiate can take! <snip>

Mike I have to admit that I never considered that possibility. It would explain a lot, for why we have "legends" of Jesuit mines scattered all over the New World. I don't know though amigo - why would any of them be punished for mining, as mentioned by Fr Polzer, if they were only following orders from 'on high'? Isn't it more believable, that a man living in the frontier, being shown rich ores by his Indians, and facing the major problem of how to make the Mission financially sound, decide on his own that "to the greater glory of God" and the order, church etc that he was not really breaking his vow of obedience NOT to mine, as he was obeying the overall goal of making ends meet? Even more likely would be that some few individuals succumbed to the temptation of lucre, seeing natural gold or silver laying about just waiting for someone to take it, and having Indians with little work to do, that "pull" overcame his vows. You are not taking the position that NO Jesuit <in the New World, as mining was allowed in certain other areas of the Old World> ever failed to keep to all of his vows, at all times through the history of the colonial period right? You present a strong case amigo and I must now re-examine the whole issue, to determine if the mining were just the actions of individuals or if they were acting on orders from "above" - either the General or the Pope, though I believe we can show the Popes (most anyway) to have been innocent based on their actions and reactions.

Anyway for our 'dear readers' just some more to consider...first how beautiful Jesuit churches can be, richly ornamented;

A photo of the altar of yet another Jesuit church, this one in Panama

Of course, since it is GOLD LEAF and not solid gold, it must be practically worthless, though according to local history, the Jesuits painted it black so that Captain Morgan's men would not steal it.

"A detail shot of the Golden Altar of the Church of San Jose in Casco Viejo, Panama City. The altar is actually made out of hand-carved wood, and then covered in gold flake.".

The church is filled with beautiful side altars, also hand-carved wood and enhanced with gold flake.

As for HIDING TREASURES, even good Father Kino himself did this on at least one occasion - during the Pima uprising of 1695, (March) while Jesuit Father Xavier Saeta was killed by the enraged Pimas and burned the mission church at Caborca to the ground, <as well as the one in Tubutama> Kino hid the vessels of the Dolores church in a cave, and was quietly awaiting the tomahawk in prayer in Dolores. The tomahawk never fell of course, as Kino was much beloved by the Indians, but they were not so loving of all their Jesuits. What about the church vessels and ornaments (as well as whatever amounts of money on hand) which were in the church in Tubutama and Caborca? Did Father Saeta manage to hide some church vessels before he died the martyr's death? If he did, and the church was then burned, are we to believe that someone later went to retrieve it? This seems highly doubtful to me - and it is during these periods of revolts, Apache and Seri raids etc when most of our supposedly "legend" stories of Jesuit treasures are set. Are we to believe that Saeta was utterly innocent, and those Pimas simply mad butchers? The church at Caborca being burnt and the resident padre killed brings me to my next point.

Our amigo Cactusjumper brought up the visit of Bishop Reyes to the then-Franciscan, but formerly Jesuit missions. Bishop Antonio de los Reyes on 6 July 1772 wrote a report on the condition of the missions in the Upper and Lower Pimería Alta. Following is his report on La Purísma Concepción de Nuestra Señora de Caborca as translated by Father Kieran McCarty:

"The Mission at Caborca with two outlying mission stations is located in the westernmost territory of Upper Pimeria, eight leagues from the above mentioned Mission at Ati and sixteen leagues from the Gulf of California.
The church is adorned on the inside with a side chapel and paintings in gilded frames. In the sacristy are two chalices, a dish and cruets, and baptismal shell, all of silver. They have sufficient vestments and other poor adornments for the altar and divine services. "

<http://www.nps.gov/tuma/historyculture/la-purisima-concepcion-de-caborca.htm>

Now this is not exactly a massive trove of treasures, and it IS during the Franciscan period but even here we find silver vessels. How many silver vessels do you have in your own home? Now the fact that the padres would hide these very vessels in times of emergency, and that it is not a treasure trove worth billions, does not make it any the less a treasure, and it is very likely that some of this kind are still out there to be found. Where to look? Not in the church walls or foundations amigos, for an idea, keep in mind where good Father Kino chose to hide the vessels - in a CAVE.

My apologies for the long-winded post, wishing you all a very Merry Christmas!
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Seasons greetings amigos,

Another reference, echoing the report of Nentvig on native Indians refusing to disclose the locations of rich mines, here pointing out that such secrets must only be revealed to Jesuit confessors;

<from Sevin's journey to Mexico, talking about Tarahumara Indians>

They are all very superstitious and the converted Indians as well as the Gentiles still hold to their old traditions They will not disclose to any Mexican or white man the spot where a silver mine has been discovered They still dread the punishment of sudden death by Providence which fear has been imposed on them by the first Jesuit missionaries who came among them and who have forbidden them to communicate to any but to their religious confessors the place of hidden treasures I spoke to one who said he knew a very rich mine but would not tell me where it was It seemed however that our guide knew some trick to possess himself of their secret now and then

The journal of the Royal Geographic Society of London, Volume 30
By Royal Geographical Society (Great Britain) 1860 pp 26>

Pure coincidence?

Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

Hey gang,
To me, it comes down to a question of faith vs fact.... Meaning those who have " faith " that the Jesuits did the what they were suppose to do ( meaning no mining ), will not believe any info brought up here.... PERIOD !!!! No matter how detailed and correct it may be, their " faith " won't allow it. I can see that there is a TON of information that leads one to believe that they were involved in mining in some way or another. I am stating this from a " objective " view ( meaning I am NOT in the Jesuit fold, therefore " faith " won't cloud my judgment ). I'm sure this is going to get some people " excited " ...... ahhhhh Sorry, but that's the way I see it. If your " faith " says that there was no mining then PLEASE explain the " tonnage " of gold in these altars..... and explain why a " code " was needed...... and explain why soooooo many people believe that they were involved in mining, and have documents that lead one to agree with their assessment....

Eagerly awaiting....
PLL

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Pegleglooker,

You may be correct in your assessment - however, imo, there is a vast difference in the "faith" of a religious nature, and "faith" in specific people. While most Christians have "faith" that their pastors and preachers and priests follow all their vows, we know, without a doubt, that THAT doesn't happen in real life. Everything from evangelican falls from grace, to priestly child-molestations - we know that it is a case of certain people, not the entire Christian faith, nor the entire Christian population.

To keep "the faith" in your religion is one thing, "faith" in all their representatives is quite another.

B

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Maybe you should study a little more about how long and trying a procss it is to become a Jesuit Priest. Its' not like joining the Rotary Club! I have the specifics somewhere, but they are easily researchable. When you read all the gory details about so many years here doing this, and so many years there doing that. Only after many years do you decide which fork in the road to take! Whether to BEGIN the long journey of becoming a Jesuit Priest, or the other less trying journey of becoming a Coadjutor.

Here are a couple of examples of just how long it took:

1. Father Alonso Bonifacio SJ; Born in 1592, entered the Society in 1608, made his final Profession in 1626~~(18 YEARS)

2. Father Francisco Calderon SJ; Born in 1596, entered the Society in 1601, Professed his final vows in 1619~(18 YEARS)

3. Father Pedro Antonio Diaz SJ; Born in 1596, entered the Society in 1615, Professed his final vows in 1632~(17 YEARS)

4. Father Andres de Rada SJ; Born 1599, entered the Society in 1616, Professed final vows in 1637~~~~~~~(21 YEARS)

So Joe, we have people who have spent between 18 and 21 YEARS of their lives dedicating themselves to learning and living by the rules set out by their chosen Order. That's almost half of my life! If I had dedicated half of my life to becoming a Jesuit Priest, do you really think that there is any way I would risk throwing away all those years over something as inconsequential as material wealth? NOT A CHANCE! ESPECIALLY material wealth that you couldn't take with you. There was no way to hide it from your superiors (except for one case I know of). As a Mission Priest, you were subject to being transferred to another Mission as needed by a Father Provincial. And as the Mission Precepts state without equivocation, you could not take anything from one mission to another when transferred except your Bible, Breviary, and one Book.

If Jose is correct about the Jesuit Treasure Trail to Matamoros, Mex. for transport of wealth via the Gulf of Mexico to Europe (and I think he is), I have anecdotal evidence that showed me about the exact same type of route via the Mission Sonoita to the Pacific, via Manilla Galleons to Jesuit Coffers in the Far East (Philippines and China).

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

And to answer the question as to why they would have punished those they caught mining?

NO IDEA! Although Father Polzer stated that they were removed and punished, he doesn't say where they were removed to or how they were punished. When I read that, I can only think about how Catholic Priests were "REMOVED" from their Parishes when evidence of child abuse was presented. "REMOVED" from one Parish and sent to another to do the same thing.

It was possible that stories of Jesuit Mining activities got serious, and instead of getting caught red handed, they took the bull by the horns, grabbed a couple of Priests in one area, and made a big show about removing them. That kind of thing happens all the time throughout history!

Best-Mike

 

[ghostdog]

I dont know about hideing items in walls,but I have heard of valuables being found under {church floors and church alters}. Some research I have done indicates after{ Father Saeta was exacuted}, the wareing party left very fast, and Indians loyal to him gathered up the valuable items and documents,and gave them to Father Kino when he arrived to claim the body. Remmber reading something about a full size gold statue being transported for a church ceremony. If the Jesuits were not involved in mineing,cattle raiseing,pearl diveing,fruit orchards,and other profitable activities,then why bother to send the King his royal 5th,and isn"t this the real reason they were expelled,for not sending the King his full shares ?

 

[Springfield]

Hey gang,
To me, it comes down to a question of faith vs fact.... Meaning those who have " faith " that the Jesuits did the what they were suppose to do ( meaning no mining ), will not believe any info brought up here.... PERIOD !!!! No matter how detailed and correct it may be, their " faith " won't allow it. I can see that there is a TON of information that leads one to believe that they were involved in mining in some way or another. I am stating this from a " objective " view ( meaning I am NOT in the Jesuit fold, therefore " faith " won't cloud my judgment ). I'm sure this is going to get some people " excited " ...... ahhhhh Sorry, but that's the way I see it. If your " faith " says that there was no mining then PLEASE explain the " tonnage " of gold in these altars..... and explain why a " code " was needed...... and explain why soooooo many people believe that they were involved in mining, and have documents that lead one to agree with their assessment....

Eagerly awaiting....
PLL

As far as this particular forum's various 'SJ Mining' debates are concerned, most of the true believers have become angst-filled, frustrated and even angry with Lamar's rigid stance. You can truck in a mountain of circumstantial evidence that would convince most eager observers in the peanut gallery, but you are never going to sway Lamar's point of view, no matter how convincing the 'evidence' you present. Why? Because, notwithstanding his obvious knowledge, talents and accomplishments, Lamar is a Catholic apologist to the core and will not compromise his beliefs , no matter what. Actually, you should thank Lamar for his rigidity because it has spurred you to continue to dig deeper and try to strengthen your arguements. In this topic and other similar ones in the 'lost mines and hidden treasure' genre, we have plenty of smoke but no smoking gun.

 

[lamar]

Dear Springfield;
You wrote:
Lamar is a Catholic apologist
And for that, I deeply and profoundly apologize...
Sorry, my friend, bad joke!
Your just kidding around friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,
______________________

Cactusjumper wrote

Quote
Bishop Palafox was an arch-enemy of the Jesuit's and their missions. In truth, the Jesuits were surrounded by such people. I would suggest you pick another shining example to hang these charges on the Jesuits.
________________________

"Why should I choose someone with less authority than a Catholic Bishop? Are you sure that Palafox was the arch-enemy of the Jesuits prior to his learning of their activities? Of course if Palafox were enemies with the Jesuits before, without good reason then of course we could then view all of his letters complaining about them with some suspicion."

Yes, of course I am sure. It is very well documented and is historically true.

[Writings of Palafox, however, have been characterized by polarity more than unity. They have been weighted heavily towards his notorious battles with the Jesuits and his controversial efforts to transfer
Their power to the secular clergy. In her incisive and groundbreaking book from 2004 on Palafox's life and politics, Cayetana Alvarez de Toledo aptly described the literature on Palafox as mostly "panegyric of calumny." As she noted, Antonio Dominguez Ortiz summarized a significant debate about Palafox's life when he questioned whether the bishop's motivations were based in "piety or pride." Rather than being derived strictly from one of the other, Palafox's motivations-again, dual if not multiple in nature-seemed to have stemmed from both.]
___________________

"Virtues Of The Indian"

Part 1: A Biographical Sketch of Palafox which begins on Page 15, starts out with this:

[Infancy and Childhood

Palafox y Mendoza was born illegitimate and of Aragonese lineage in Fitero, Navarra, Spain on June 24, 1600. His mother, a young widow from Zaragoza, was of "noble blood," and aspect of his birth for which Palafox thanked God and which was as noted by contemporary diarists and historians as a providential virtue.]
"JUAN DE PALAFOX Y MENDOZA: VIRTUES OF THE INDIAN" Edited And Translated By Nancy H. Fee.

Ms. Fee's book is 243 pages in length with copious notes/sources at the end of each chapter. Any source that Lamar would have used for his comments on Bishop Palafox, likely would have started with the same information. Writers of that era, especially Spanish, were obsessed with blood lines.

The fact that I have also sited this historical fact, should not be construed as a personal insult to the memory of Bishop Palafox. It was something that he himself often referred to.

The Bishop arrived in Veracruz, Mexico June 24, 1640 on his fortieth Birthday. His battles with the established Catholic Orders began, almost at once. He was recalled to Spain by King Phillip IV in April of 1649, after a tumultuous nine years.

Considering the fact that the Jesuit Order lasted in New Spain for another 118 years after Bishop Palafox was removed, you might argue that they presented a better case than the Bishop. On the other hand, YOU might say he was just misunderstood.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

GD,

NO. Not giving the King his fifth had absolutely nothing to do with the Suppression of the Jesuit Order. You see, since the jesuits were not allowed to mine or partake in any "MONEYMAKING" ventures, there would naturally be no profit to give the King a fifth of! I honestly don't think that Jesuit Moneymaking played any kind of pivotal part of King Charles III actual decision to suppress the Jesuits in all of Spain's Lands.

I do, however, believe that their mining activities had a LOT to do with the fact that the King kept everything a complete secret until the night the mass arrests were actually carried out. After all, the Priests were being taken into custody and shipped back to Europe. They were not executed. They had nowhere to run. The only reason to try and keep their suppression a secret until the night of 25-26 June 1767 would be to catch them with their pants down (so to speak). To try and jump them before they had a chance to hide their illgotten booty (or illbottengooty).

What the King didn't realize was that the Jesuits had known for years that their Suppression was inevitable. They just didn't have the exact timeline. Especially since they knew that several members of the Order were caught and arrested (during the Spanish Riots of 1766) distributing money to the rioters.

Ghost Dog, that was the real reason for the Spanish Suppression of the Jesuit Order. According to King Charles himself, the Jesuits had for years been secretly spreading rumors about him being an illegitimate King. This was because King Charles III was firmly against the Inquisitions and wholly supported the Enlightened Movement. The Jesuits are very conservative and fully supported the Inquisitions. They wanted a King that believed as they did. Charles said that he had been getting advice from his counselors that the Jesuits were plotting against him, but he believed the rumors to be false. He believed that they originated from people who disliked the Jesuits. The last straw for him was when several Jesuit Priests were caught in the streets distributing money to rioters during the rebellion of 1766. He then (according to him) realized that his advisors had been right all along.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I have another possibility for you:

Ever think that maybe because of the Jesuits' wealth and power that they held more sway than Palafox in New Spain? Maybe Palafox's letter was correct and because the Jesuits had so much power they had him removed.

Just look at what happened to Capt. Juan Mateo Manje. He was a close friend of Padre Eusebio Francisco Kino SJ, and accompanied him on the greatest majority of his journeys of exploration throughout Northern New Spain. When he wrote a letter stating that the Jesuits were not providing services to the Spanish in favor of tending the Indians (which is the actual truth of the matter), offense was taken, and Captain Manje found himself behind bars for a prolonged period of time.

Now, compare that to Palafox. Palafox wrote a letter that put the Jesuits in a bad light. They took offense and fought to get Palafox sent back to Europe. In Manje's Case, his letter was completely accurate, but that didn't save him from prison. Who's to say that Palafox wasn't correct as well. Just found himself up against a bigger and more powerful foe.

Best-Mike