JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning Yammy/Swr: just snickering here, reading the last few posts..

Incidentally, why would mining a very rich vein be sooo despicable, especially in Rome, where they depended upon incoming wealth to sustain the order?

Also, no one has remarked upon the ruling of the Council of the Indies in Mexico city regarding mining by Priests, or of the special privilege that they were not required to register them? And one wonders why records of Jesuit mining are soo hard to find?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

Jose,

There is, evidently, a in-grained denial of any truths, even if they are self-evident.

The fact that our own country brought up, and made part of, our OWN history, a historical happening, (Verona), is proof positive that, there are some who do not know, do not want to know - or have a vested interest in "changing history", as it were. Just like the Nazi's were absolutely sure that, some day, the Holocaust would disappear from history, so it is with the Jesuits.

B

 

[Oroblanco]

Yammy Elf aka SWR wrote

So far, nothing has been presented in this thread that would indicate the Jesuit's were mining, or hide huge treasures.There seems to be a lot of self-interpretation about what was written...and what they might have meant. The "code" myth is a good example. Some are speculating there must be a secret code, because that is how they understand the paragraph to read. Others read it as be careful what you write...the person you are writing about may read the letter.

It appears that you seem to have missed something there. NOTHING, huh? So when the Jesuits themselves admit that SOME were in fact mining, and a documented case is found, that is "nothing" for you? I understand your skeptical stance toward all "treasure tales" but if the words of Jesuits themselves will not convince you, then one might well conclude you are in fact a biased observer.

To try to bring some relevant passages again to your attention,

That Jesuit missions had rich ornamentation and equipment

"All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well.

<Father Johann Nentvig SJ, Rudo Ensayo>

[Regarding the cathedral in Puebla.] The cathedral church possesses an exceedingly rich treasure in its gold and silver church appointments.In Spain and the Indies the prebendaries and other canons do not have their choir at the high altar. Rather, not far from the church entrance is a large, high partition in front of their seats, and from the choir to the high altar for their sole use runs an aisle enclosed on both sides by railings. These railings run through the entire cathedral church and are of the finest cast silver, each amounting to at least eight hundred weight. The colossally large, silver hanging lamp inspires awe in all visitors. It is more than eight feet across and is very thick and massively decorated. The chains with finger-thick silver links are so heavy that when a ladder is leaned against them they do not move. A man can quite comfortably walk around the edge of the lamp. The decoration is rather ponderous, yet its manufacture by a goldsmith [sic] is supposed to have cost two thousand pesos. I omit mention of the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrances, and ciboria of finest gold. Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service.

<Father Joseph Och, SJ, Missionary in Sonora; the travel reports of Joseph Och, S.J., 1755-1767>

That Jesuits would hide the Church treasure in times of emergency

My Reverend Father Gaspar Stiger,<snip>
I came to Terrenate yesterday to hide the ornaments of the church and a family.
Terrenate, November 28, 1751
Your Humble Servant, Keller
If Your Reverence should see the Father Visitor and Juan, give them my affection.

letter from Ignacio Xavier Keller SJ to Gaspar Stiger SJ, Terrenate, November 28, 1751
(AGI, Guadalajara 419, 3m-49, page 2)

That Jesuit treasures may still exist

If any Jesuit Treasure has survived, it is physically possible that it is a cache of vestments, sacred vessels, and Church ornaments. (But we have yet to to review this possibility in terms of its' concealment and subsequent loss)."

<Father Charles W. Polzer SJ; in the Aug 1962 edition of Desert Magazine>

That Jesuits were not to be mining

No one will possess knowledge about mining either directly or indirectly; even if his intention is to have a general knowledge about everything, such knowledge would fall under this precept.

<Father Provincial Francisco de Arteaga SJ (1699-1702)>

Repeated, as apparently the earlier precept was not being obeyed

No one will work mines. This includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining either directly or indirectly. The intention of the precept is to include all forms of knowledge or interpretations that could even fall within the same precept.

<Father Provincial Andres Javier Garcia SJ(25 June 1747)>

That Jesuits were in fact mining

From archival sources, we know of only two instances in which Padres became involved in mining operations (these being in the Sierra Madre Mission Area). In both cases the men were severely reprimanded and removed.

<Father Charles W Polzer SJ regarding Jesuit Mining activities from his article in the Aug 1962 edition of Desert Magazine: >

Author Robert Cooper West found a documented case of Jesuits owning and operating a mine

The Jesuits of Matape mission also engaged in the extraction and refining of silver ores from deposits near Tecoripa, not far from San Miguel Arcangel. According to the rules of the Jesuit order, priests were forbidden to own, operate, or even acquire knowledge of mining. But apparently, ownership of the mines in question had been signed over to the mission by a Spanish miner in payment for debts he incurred for supplies obtained from the padres. Moreover, the priests claimed that the mines belonged to the College of San Jose' at Matape, not to the mission itself, and thus the superiors permitted continuation of the "forbidden" activity.

That Jesuits mining activities were a matter of fact,

As early as 1736 mining was conducted with considerable success by the Jesuit Fathers

<Report on the internal commerce of the United States
By United States. Bureau of Statistics (Treasury dept.), United States. Treasury Dept. Bureau 1890 pp92 >

That Jesuit mines are well known in Argentina and a matter of record

it is well known that they devoted considerable attention to mining we should not therefore go far wrong in assuming that they possessed nearly all the richest mines ie those discovered at that time Two such mines were possessed and worked by the Jesuits somewhere in the mountains of Famatina ...Copies of the old records of those treasure mines of the Jesuits exist...
It is a well established fact that the Jesuits wrote a description of their principal mines indicating their situation and nature and at their expulsion it is believed that these documents were taken to Spain.
Sufficient evidence however exist to prove that the Jesuits mines in the chain of mountains of the Aconquija...
It is stated on good authority by persons of credit who resided in Catamarca that near to the top of the Nevado which is a very high Cerro covered with perpetual snow and situated to the North East of the Fuerte de Andalgala the Jesuits worked a gold mine on the Tucuman side of that mountain and that at their expulsion this mine was shut up by a stone wall....
It is further clear that they not only worked for copper but also worked mines of gold and silver as well and we are obliged to believe that the gold mines they possessed were a source of great riches.
...in certain documents of title of property belonging to the family of Luis Lucero there are indications or records that gold was found in the Cerro Rico of La Carolina by a Portuguese monk Geronimo (Jesuit)
The native Indians did no more than explore on the surface but such works were continued by the Jesuits and after their expulsion by their successors the Aragoneses <Jesuit LAY BROTHERS> who obtained great benefit from this mine which circumstance caused it to be considered the most celebrated of all the other silver mines in this district....
As previously indicated the Jesuits exploited some of the mines existing here and it is highly probable that the veins containing gold were indicated to them by the Indians who were the first exploiters...
Various old workings exist in the mines which according to the best evidence were made by the Jesuits
Evidence exists proving that the Jesuits worked mines in these regions and obtained large quantities of gold from them.

<Official report upon the mines, mining, metallurgy and mining laws, &c., &c ...
By Henry Davis Hoskold, Argentina. 1904>


That these old Jesuit mines have remained un-mentioned and generally un-acknowledged by the Jesuit Order for good reason

it is clear that the Jesuits must have had an intention of returning to the mines on a future occasion.

<ibid>

That Jesuit LAY BROTHERS later returned with enough information to relocate the hidden mines

There is no evidence that mining progressed or even was the object of much attention during the interval which elapsed from the time of the expulsion of the Jesuits to the arrival of the Aragoneses or Lay Jesuits ie Juan Leita and Juan Echavarria The date of their advent in South America is said to be about the year 1777 or ten years after the expulsion but the general opinion is that it was about the year 1803 It is however certain that Juan Leita possessed information derived from one of the expulsed Jesuits and that he in connection with his companion rediscovered several rich mines from which they obtained considerable quantity of gold and silver but if we take into consideration the amount of work which these celebrated spanish adventurers are said to have performed in the Province of La Rioja and that of Catamarca the date of their arrival in South America must have been anterior to 1803 The mines which Juan Leita rediscovered included Santo Domingo Santa Rosa and Viuda in the Cerro Negro Socorro and other in the Tigre San Pedro Bartolome and Mercedes in the Caldera Vieja

A translation of an actual mining claim filed by Jesuit LAY BROTHERS (monks)

The evidence proving that Leita and Echavaria came into the Province of La Rioja and operated in the Famatina mountains is to be found in the original book of Registrations and Demarcations of the mines of San Pedro of Famatina written by the Territorial Judge by order of Don Baltazar Hidalgo de Cisneros Virrey de estas Provincias dated Anguinan 10th June 1810 The record translated is as follows

August 31st 1810 Don Juan Echevarria for himself and in the name of his companion Don Juan Leita natives of the kindgdom of Aragon presented three documents for silver mineral asking for three concessions of mines situated in the Caldera Vieja expressing that two of the said veins of mineral ran in a North and South direction and that the third vein had an East and West bearing naming the mines Bartolome Mercedes and San Pedro de Famatina.

The Jesuit missions HAD TO MAKE A PROFIT. They could not operate indefinitely at a loss, dependent upon the largesse of the Kings of Spain, France or Portugal.

assure you it is delightful to engage in trade over here and to make such handsome profits. If you wish to take a hand in it, let me know your intentions by the bearer, who desires to return and traffic here in pursuance of what he has seen. [6] shall say no more, except to pray God to give you, Sir and Brother, a long life and perfect health. From Port Royal, New France, this 28th of, June, 1610.

Your very affectlonate Brother and servant,

BERTRAND.

<from Première Mission des Jésuites, au Canada, by Auguste Carayon, S. J. Paris: L'Écureux,1864. FIRST MISSION OF THE JESUITS IN CANADA.* 26>


That the Jesuits had to force the Indians to work is a matter of record, that they used slaves (usually of African origins) is also a matter of record. That the Padres were targeted by the Indians during uprisings is a matter of record. Some of the Indians loved their Jesuit padres, this is also a matter of record. The Jesuits were not more cruel than other missionaries, nor in fact any worse than most European governmental punishments for breaking the laws.

It seems just a bit ridiculous to propose that various Mexican, Argentinian, or any other towns or cities would so loudly boast of their Jesuit mining activities in order to attract treasure hunters. Firstly there is no need to attribute any of these mines or furnaces to the Jesuits; they could as easily and readily say they belonged to the Spaniards and no treasure hunter would turn up his or her nose at it simply because it were Spanish rather than Jesuit owned originally. For that matter, just how much "tourist dollars" can be attributed to treasure hunters visiting a region? That argument just won't fly.

Next, our older historians often attribute a number of the older mines to the Jesuits; at that time there was no indication of any kind of stain on the honor of the Jesuits or the Catholic Church, just a matter of history. Today these mines are supposed to be a blot on Jesuit honor, which seems inexplicable. That at least some of these historians got their information on the origins of these mines from Indians (as have several of our treasure writers) is fairly certain, and again there is no reason to denigrate these sources for these same Indians could have just as easily said the mines were Spanish or Mexican and this would not cause any doubt or any treasure hunter to suddenly decide to spend his or her massive tourism dollars elsewhere. In fact the majority of the old mines and workings were in fact attributed to the Spanish by these same Indians, so do we have any doubts there? This is not good grounds to impeach those Indian sources as witnesses.

One of the examples where Jesuits were accused of having secret gold mines was in the Guarani region, which included much of Paraguay and Uruguay, as well as across the border into Brazil. On their expulsion from Portuguese dominions, none of these alleged gold mines were found, which our Jesuit apologists have pointed to as absolute proof of their "innocence" - however this evidence may yet turn up; for in recent times rich gold deposits have in fact been found in Uruguay, which were missed by early Portuguese explorers due to the fact the gold-bearing strata were hidden by a layer of alluvial deposits which runs from one meter to over 20 meters; is it so far-fetched to suppose that some Jesuits working at their rich missions and ranches in this very region, while excavating for a well (to give one possible example) or digging a foundation, that the gold could have been discovered? Here is one example of the accidental discovery of gold by the Jesuit fathers,

when the foundations of saint Joseph's Chapel were dug on the shore of lake Huron,—which is nothing but the discharge of lake Superior,—the workmen found a vein, as large as one's arm, of these grains of gold, the sand that was mixed with the vein being so little in quantity as to be almost imperceptible in comparison with the rest. But the workmen, who knew that there were mines of copper in those regions, being persuaded that it was from a brass mine (in ignorance that brass is a composition), filled in the foundations which they had dug, without knowing that they were sealing up a treasure there.

Relation of that occurred in the Mission of the Fathers of the Society of Jesus, in the countries of New France, from the Summer of the year 1659 to the Summer of the year 1660.CHAPTER III.OF THE CONDITION OF THE ALGONQUIN COUNTRY, AND OF SOME NEW DISCOVERIES Sent to Reverend Father Claude Boucher, Provincial of the Province of France.

The Jesuits deceived their own hired workmen concerning the existence of this gold deposit in this instance. Jesuit Father DeSmet also "accidently" found gold in the Black Hills of Dakota, and kept it secret - unsucessfully, mentioning the fact at a dinner party and in a letter written to his brother, but that the Jesuits were quite well educated and were trusted to locate and identify mineral deposits is undisputed. The fact that they had their own mining schools should point up their well-known expertise in the matter. Should we then be surprised that Father Och SJ just "happened" to have a flask of mercury on him, to test gold, unless the good father had a real interest in mines and minerals - beyond the academic treatises.

My apologies for RE-posting so much of what has already been posted, but it seems that a fair amount of information has been ignored or simply missed. I have no bone to pick with Yammy Elf or anyone on this matter - and have strong doubts that I can ever change the minds of some folks, which is no reflection on their intellect or perceptions but on my failure to locate the evidence they desire to see, and to present the case in strong enough terms to persuade.

As this post is already grown quite long, I will close here. Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays to you Yammy Elf, and to everyone reading this.
Oroblanco
<Hot cocoa this time!>

 

[Oroblanco]

Postscript;

As regards the idea of promoting "legends" of Jesuit mines and/or treasures, in order to ATTRACT treasure hunters, in fact - in many places, restrictions have been put in place to discourage treasure hunters. The list would be very long indeed if I were to try to enumerate them, but for examples;

The Philippines now have laws to discourage treasure hunters (many poor villages here)
Port Royal has regulations to discourage treasure hunters (a tourist site for certain)
Austria (and many European countries) have legislation to discourage treasure hunters
Ecuador has regulations to discourage treasure hunters (again many poor villages)
even here in the good old USA we find that treasure hunters are discouraged by the authorities in Florida for instance or at certain historic sites in Arizona such as the old Jesuit mission of Guevavi.

So if you think about it, the idea that Jesuit mines and/or treasures are being promoted to increase the treasure hunter trade does not agree with what we see in fact.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

AAAAAAHHH,

An SWR by any other name, EH Yammy?

Now lets get back to the subject of Jesuits not "mining nor having any knowledge mining, either direct nor indirect".

We go back to the words of Father Joseph Och SJ in his book:

A day and a half journey toward the Northwest from my Mission of San Ignacio occurred a wonder of nature in copper (WHICH ALSO CONTAINED SOME GOLD) like the Silver discovery at Arizona. Several hundredweight (a hundredweight is equal to 100 pounds) of the finest copper were found scattered about on top of the ground in a field in the form of chocolate colored stones. These weighed from a quarter to half a hundredweight and were of such purity that in smelting them only small quantities of impurities were found. I sent some Indians to the field several times with eight mules where they collected these copper balls in leather sacks without pickaxes or any other tools. Thus, with only this effort from my Indians I procured eight beautiful bells that were cast for me by a bell-caster who had taken refuge in the interior because of a past deed of murder. The bells had a pleasing and beautiful tone.

Along with Silver there is found almost everywhere a sticky, clay-colored earth mixed with black. A small amount of heat applied to this earth generally causes it to yield a half part of lead.

First, how did Father Och SJ know that the copper had some gold in it? Remember that this is the very same Father Och SJ that used some mercury (that he just happened to be carrying in a flask) to amalgamate gold scale from a native's dishes.

Second, as this copper was found on the surface, this type of deposit is known as a PLACER copper ore. Placer MINING was well known to the Spanish and was considered to be just as illegal as Hard Rock Mining for the Jesuits.

Next, Father Och SJ displayed an amazingly intimate KNOWLEDGE of one of the processes of refining lead from that sticky clay-colored earth.

WHOOOOPS!

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Yammy Elf <aka SWR> wrote

Yeppers...you read my post correctly. I haven't missed anything. I have read all of the speculation, self-interpretation and assumptions posted.

5,000 more words speculating the same things over and over....just don't seem to help.

What would? While I respectfully disagree completely with your classifying the evidence as so much speculation, I must now ask you a question;

What would YOU take, as proof of Jesuit mines and/or treasures? <EDIT -scratch that, I already have my answer; and will not waste any time trying to change your mind Yammy Elf/SWR.>

Thank you in advance, and of course Merry Christmas!

Of course, for the sake of our dear readers, more is to come...
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[That Jesuit mines are well known in Argentina and a matter of record

Quote
it is well known that they devoted considerable attention to mining we should not therefore go far wrong in assuming that they possessed nearly all the richest mines ie those discovered at that time Two such mines were possessed and worked by the Jesuits somewhere in the mountains of Famatina ...Copies of the old records of those treasure mines of the Jesuits exist...
It is a well established fact that the Jesuits wrote a description of their principal mines indicating their situation and nature and at their expulsion it is believed that these documents were taken to Spain.
Sufficient evidence however exist to prove that the Jesuits mines in the chain of mountains of the Aconquija...
It is stated on good authority by persons of credit who resided in Catamarca that near to the top of the Nevado which is a very high Cerro covered with perpetual snow and situated to the North East of the Fuerte de Andalgala the Jesuits worked a gold mine on the Tucuman side of that mountain and that at their expulsion this mine was shut up by a stone wall....
It is further clear that they not only worked for copper but also worked mines of gold and silver as well and we are obliged to believe that the gold mines they possessed were a source of great riches.
...in certain documents of title of property belonging to the family of Luis Lucero there are indications or records that gold was found in the Cerro Rico of La Carolina by a Portuguese monk Geronimo (Jesuit)
The native Indians did no more than explore on the surface but such works were continued by the Jesuits and after their expulsion by their successors the Aragoneses <Jesuit LAY BROTHERS> who obtained great benefit from this mine which circumstance caused it to be considered the most celebrated of all the other silver mines in this district....
As previously indicated the Jesuits exploited some of the mines existing here and it is highly probable that the veins containing gold were indicated to them by the Indians who were the first exploiters...
Various old workings exist in the mines which according to the best evidence were made by the Jesuits
Evidence exists proving that the Jesuits worked mines in these regions and obtained large quantities of gold from them.
<Official report upon the mines, mining, metallurgy and mining laws, &c., &c ...
By Henry Davis Hoskold, Argentina. 1904>


That these old Jesuit mines have remained un-mentioned and generally un-acknowledged by the Jesuit Order for good reason

Quote
it is clear that the Jesuits must have had an intention of returning to the mines on a future occasion.
<ibid>

That Jesuit LAY BROTHERS later returned with enough information to relocate the hidden mines


Quote
There is no evidence that mining progressed or even was the object of much attention during the interval which elapsed from the time of the expulsion of the Jesuits to the arrival of the Aragoneses or Lay Jesuits ie Juan Leita and Juan Echavarria The date of their advent in South America is said to be about the year 1777 or ten years after the expulsion but the general opinion is that it was about the year 1803 It is however certain that Juan Leita possessed information derived from one of the expulsed Jesuits and that he in connection with his companion rediscovered several rich mines from which they obtained considerable quantity of gold and silver but if we take into consideration the amount of work which these celebrated spanish adventurers are said to have performed in the Province of La Rioja and that of Catamarca the date of their arrival in South America must have been anterior to 1803 The mines which Juan Leita rediscovered included Santo Domingo Santa Rosa and Viuda in the Cerro Negro Socorro and other in the Tigre San Pedro Bartolome and Mercedes in the Caldera Vieja

A translation of an actual mining claim filed by Jesuit LAY BROTHERS (monks)


Quote
The evidence proving that Leita and Echavaria came into the Province of La Rioja and operated in the Famatina mountains is to be found in the original book of Registrations and Demarcations of the mines of San Pedro of Famatina written by the Territorial Judge by order of Don Baltazar Hidalgo de Cisneros Virrey de estas Provincias dated Anguinan 10th June 1810 The record translated is as follows

August 31st 1810 Don Juan Echevarria for himself and in the name of his companion Don Juan Leita natives of the kindgdom of Aragon presented three documents for silver mineral asking for three concessions of mines situated in the Caldera Vieja expressing that two of the said veins of mineral ran in a North and South direction and that the third vein had an East and West bearing naming the mines Bartolome Mercedes and San Pedro de Famatina.]
_____________________________________________________________________

Perhaps you should reread Hoskold, and tell me where he gives a source for the records he refers to. In rereading his book, I am struck by his ambiguous "facts". Picking just one of your quotes, "It is however certain that Juan Leita possessed information derived from one of the expulsed Jesuits and that he in connection with his companion rediscovered several rich mines from which they obtained considerable quantity of gold and silver", Hoskold fails to mention how he is certain that it is "certain".

That particular section of the book is full of such......stories, without sourcing. Hoskold's original work was started in 1887. This book was written in 1904. In it he admits he was rushed for time in completing it, resulting in "defects and omissions". I would suggest you look elsewhere for "proof" of Jesuit mining.
____________________________________________________________________


"As regards the idea of promoting "legends" of Jesuit mines and/or treasures, in order to ATTRACT treasure hunters, in fact - in many places, restrictions have been put in place to discourage treasure hunters. The list would be very long indeed if I were to try to enumerate them, but for examples;

The Philippines now have laws to discourage treasure hunters (many poor villages here)
Port Royal has regulations to discourage treasure hunters (a tourist site for certain)
Austria (and many European countries) have legislation to discourage treasure hunters
Ecuador has regulations to discourage treasure hunters (again many poor villages)
even here in the good old USA we find that treasure hunters are discouraged by the authorities in Florida for instance or at certain historic sites in Arizona such as the old Jesuit mission of Guevavi.

So if you think about it, the idea that Jesuit mines and/or treasures are being promoted to increase the treasure hunter trade does not agree with what we see in fact."

"It seems just a bit ridiculous to propose that various Mexican, Argentinian, or any other towns or cities would so loudly boast of their Jesuit mining activities in order to attract treasure hunters. Firstly there is no need to attribute any of these mines or furnaces to the Jesuits; they could as easily and readily say they belonged to the Spaniards and no treasure hunter would turn up his or her nose at it simply because it were Spanish rather than Jesuit owned originally. For that matter, just how much "tourist dollars" can be attributed to treasure hunters visiting a region? That argument just won't fly."
_________________________________________

I have no idea what all of that has to do with Jesuit mining in Mexico. Do they have such laws there?

Surely you can see that lost, hidden or secret Jesuit mines has more draw than the known Spanish mines in the area. I did not suggest anything regarding Jesuit mining in Argentina. You are the one who is expanding my argument worldwide. Could we just focus on what took place in Mexico?

If you want to start a sub-thread about Argentina, I will be happy to contribute the minute information I have.

On that note, it's time for me to give this a rest.

Take care and stay warm,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Quick to comment on Roy's Post, but what about my previous one? Please read Father Joseph Och SJ's own accounts.

Merry Christmas-Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening Yammy/swr. You posted -->

5,000 more words speculating the same things over and over....just don't seem to help
~~~~~~~~~~~

May I suggest a visit to your local Optometrist for a fitting of glasses in order to be able to read better?

Not being negative or personal, but just trying to be helpful.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

I have no idea what all of that has to do with Jesuit mining in Mexico. Do they have such laws there?

Surely you can see that lost, hidden or secret Jesuit mines has more draw than the known Spanish mines in the area. I did not suggest anything regarding Jesuit mining in Argentina. You are the one who is expanding my argument worldwide. Could we just focus on what took place in Mexico?

If you want to start a sub-thread about Argentina, I will be happy to contribute the minute information I have.

On that note, it's time for me to give this a rest.

May I ask where it is proscribed that our discussion must be limited to Mexico in this thread? As to the relevance, yes it was illegal or at least against the precepts of the Order, as can be borne out by the very accusations raised against the Jesuits in Paraguay, Uruguay, Brazil etc. It would be a bit naive to presume that what was happening in South America would never occur in North America. I believe our thread topic is "Jesuit Treasures - Are They Real?" and this to include mines as well, with no mention of limiting it to Mexico and/or Arizona. If that is the desire of our thread owner (Gollum) I will happily abide by those terms.

Of course, a LOST Jesuit mine will have more draw than any KNOWN mine, be it Spanish, French or Portuguese - but I respectfully disagree that any lost Jesuit mine has any stronger attraction than a lost mine of any other flavor - what is the most popularly known mine in the USA for instance, but the Lost Dutchman mine, which has no Jesuit history (except what has been grafted on in later days, on some of the slimmest evidence I have ever seen) or the Lost Pegleg mine, again not a hint of ANY Jesuit involvement, or the Lost Adams, can you cite any Jesuit involvement there amigo? No I must respectfully disagree, making a lost mine a Jesuit story may strike you personally as more attractive, but in 'the world' this does not hold true.

Why must we keep our discussion limited to Mexico? Because there IS quite enough evidence for a "conviction" when we look at the Jesuits activities elsewhere in the New World? Are you not willing to concede that even in Mexico, there are documented cases of Jesuits mining, owning mines, and concealing treasures?

I do hold some hope of swaying your opinion Joe, for you at least are willing to hear it out with an open mind; which is more than I can say for some of our amigos here. Did you notice what Father Och SJ wrote? Do you dismiss that out of hand?

Yammy Elf/SWR wrote

Do you read any of the disclaimers or the General Prefix of the sources you use?

I read a great deal amigo, apparently much more than you wish to credit. Please show me where any of the sources I have posted, are proven to be a lie? Thank you in advance, oh and if you prefer every source be posted in its original language, I will leave that labor to you.

I hope all is well with you Joe, Mike, Don Jose, Yammy Elf and everyone, and wish you and yours a very Merry Christmas!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Quick to comment on Roy's Post, but what about my previous one? Please read Father Joseph Och SJ's own accounts.

Merry Christmas-Mike

Father Och seems to have lost his German accent. Is that Father Och's own accounts...or something somebody intrepratated what Father Och might have been saying/thinking by reading his journal?

Happy Hanukkah

Come on SWR,

You are once again showing your ignorance of the subject at hand. It is the translation of Father Och's Journals (originally published in Germany under the name "Der S.J. in Neumexico. Nachrichten von seinem Reisen nach dem Spanischen Amerika, seinem dortigen Auftenthalte vom Jahr 1755 bis 1767, und Rückkehr nach Europa 1768. Aus dessen eigenhändigen Aufsätzen".
Acknowledged by the two most eminent Jesuit Historians in America (Father Ernest J Burrus SJ and Father Charles W Polzer SJ). The translation was perforned by Theodore Treutline, who was the most accomplished translator of the German Jesuits.

Happy Christmachannukwanzika

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote
{quoting Father Och, SJ}

I procured eight beautiful bells that were cast for me by a bell-caster who had taken refuge in the interior because of a past deed of murder.

Could this be the very same bell-maker referred to in some legends of the lost Tayopa mines? I am referring to the "Mesa of the Bell Maker" - so named for the man who was casting bells there in a rather curious location, though now it would make perfect sense. Thank you in advance, and Merry Christmas to you all!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Going back to Arizona itself, what about what is available from some other publications?

Like the one written by Sylvester Mowry - through the Library of Congress? There are many instances of Jesuit activities.

This is just a piece - there is much more in this work, but, I just wanted to take this back to the Arizona connection.

B

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos and Feliz Navidad,
Why is it that when we discuss Jesuit treasures and/or lost mines, our Jesuit apologists inevitably resort to such things as trying to impeach the sources? We always get a flood of refutations, as one writer put it, as if it were some crime which must then be prosecuted. Insofar as I can determine, though these illicit mining operations in particular may well have been illegal, the limits imposed by time have rendered such activities -history- rather than a current crime to be punished.

I will grant that some treasure writers have embellished upon the stories as they were originally passed along; as in the old 'telegraph' game many of us played as children, the values of the treasures becomes magnified in each re-telling of the tale. However these stories are, in many cases, based on real events. What "crime" would there have been, for a padre to hide the ornaments and other valuables of his church, when threatened? How would we view a padre who took no steps to protect them?

What evidence and argument will serve to convince one person, is not and will not be the same amounts of evidence or quality of argument which will serve to convince another. Dear reader, judge for yourselves, whether Jesuit treasures and lost mines are real or not.

We have touched on many sources here but I will bring to your attention one mine in particular, which was known as a Jesuit mine as its original discoverers and owners, lost on their expulsion, but re-discovered by Franciscan monks - namely the Salero silver mine.

The Salero silver mine is named for a 'salt-cellar' - for in colonial days, a salt-shaker was unknown, the condiment being served in small dishes made for holding it. Here is one version;

This mine lias long been known to the Mexicans and was worked more than a century ago under the direction of the Jesuits at Tumacacori A legend is told of the derivation of the name SALERO or Salt cellar which may be worthy of record On the occasion of a visit from the Bishop of Sonora to Tumacacori the good father in charge of that establishment furnished as in duty bound the best entertainment for his superior that his limited resources would allow The Bishop was delighted with the sumptuous feast laid before him the chickens the fruits the wines were all excellent there was only one thing lacking to complete his temporal happiness a salt cellar The poor Padre was deeply mortified he had forgotten all about the salt cellar in fact had long since forgotten the use of such luxuries Salt cellars were as scarce in Arizona then as they are now "Never mind" said he as a happy thought struck him your Excellency shall have a salt cellar tomorrow A few trusty men were dispatched to the Santa Rita mountains with orders to dig and smelt some silver ore and make a salt cellar and sure enough by dinner time the next day a massive salt cellar was presented to the Bishop and from that day forth the mine out of which the ore was dug was called the Salero History does not record but there can be little doubt that the worthy Bishop of Sonora enjoyed his dinner at Tumacacori

<Harper's new monthly magazine, Volume 30, Issues 175-180
By Henry Mills Alden 1865 >

Now I found through a bit of research that it was not the Bishop of Sonora but the Bishop of Durango who made the visit and was presented the silver salt-cellar; another source has a different mission named, however such errors do creep in over time. What is significant about this particular mine, which was quite a silver mine in it's day, is that it is NOT LOST. So when someone exclaims that there never were any Jesuit mines, for none has ever been found, you know this to be un-true. This is not the only example of a FOUND Jesuit mine.

<Salero mining camp in ruins today>
http://arizona.hometownlocator.com/maps/feature-map,ftc,2,fid,33966,n,salero mine.cfm

Sorry to our treasure hunters about this one, for it is private property today and requires virtually no search to locate it, but there are enough other lost mines to hunt.

For the skeptic, consider this - for if this one example of a Jesuit mine is FACT, does that not change the probabilities concerning the so-called "legends" of the others? Admittedly there are more legends of lost Spanish mines than of Jesuit, but even so, perhaps these other lost mines are as real as the Salero?

More to follow...
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Yet more testimony of our Arizona historians concerning Jesuit mining activities;

PIMA COUNTY This county is the oldest mining region in the United States At what time the first discoveries were made by Europeans is not clear although it is believed that the Jesuit missionaries operated here as early as the latter part of the seventeenth century By the middle of the eighteenth century mining was prosecuted vigorously in the Baboquivari the Santa Rita Arivaca....

From the many old shafts and tunnels which have been discovered it is evident that the industry was carried on extensively In this region was found the famous Planchas de Plata or planks of silver which yielded neatly five tons of the pure metal Many of the rich mines which were worked in those days have not been found although the most diligent search has been made The abandonment of the missions in 1828 and the hostility of the Apaches almost put a stop to mining in Arizona and it was not until some time after the country came into the possession of the United States that it was resumed.

Tumacacori was at one time the richest of the Arizona missions and was the scene of an active and prosperous mining industry but the Apache spoiler came down like a wolf on the fold and nothing remains to tell of Jesuit energy and endeavor save the crumbling ruin of the old church and the abandoned shafts and tunnels overgrown with brush and filled with debris which are frequently met with in the surrounding mountains

<The resources of Arizona: its mineral, farming, and grazing lands, towns ...
By Patrick Hamilton, Arizona. Legislative Assembly 1881>

Bancroft wrote that the Jesuits did no mining, yet many of our historians say quite the opposite. Of course our Jesuit apologists will focus on Hamilton's use of the word "believed" but ask yourself this - why should our historians have published utter falsehoods? I have to wonder why there is such a controversy about it today, if there truly were no Jesuit mines? The existence of the Salero and several other Jesuit mines shows that those "legends" are not pure fantasies.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Here are the facts about Tumacacori during the time of the Jesuits:

From nps.gov:

[The name "Tumacácori" may have been derived from two O’odham words, chu-uma and kakul, having reference to a flat, rocky place. Father Kino established it as a mission in January 1691, one day before Guevavi, making it the oldest mission site in Arizona. For many years, though, it was a visita or visiting station of the mission headquarters at Guevavi. During most of those years, it was located on the east side of the Santa Cruz River and was called San Cayetano de Tumacácori. Services were held in a small adobe structure built by the Pima inhabitants of the village. After the Pima rebellion of 1751, the mission was moved to the present site on the west side of the river and renamed San José de Tumacácori. Here the first actual church edifice was built.

Bishop Antonio de los Reyes on 6 July 1772 wrote a report on the condition of the missions in the Upper and Lower Pimería Alta. Following is his report on San José de Tumacácori as translated by Father Kieran McCarty:

The village of San Jose at Tumacácori lies seven leagues to the south of Guevavi and one from the Presidio of Tubac, in open territory with good lands. In this village they have a church and house for the Missionary devoid of all ornament and furnishing. According to the Census Book, which I have here before me, there are twenty-two married couples, twelve widowers, ten orphans, the number of should in all ninety-three.]

Would you say that pretty well matches up with what you have just said about Tumacacori? I assume it also matches fairly closely with what our Arizona Historians have said.

I believe you have me convinced.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

Here are the facts about Tumacacori during the time of the Jesuits:

From nps.gov:

The National Park Service has changed their information on Tumacacori over the years, as you are well aware - some years ago they even had quite a display set up showing how the Jesuit monks were working the mines. Do you now hold their current information as wholly correct? <I would remind you that they even now claim the oldest mission in Arizona to be one of these Jesuit missions, when we can prove that Franciscan missions predate them by a respectable margin.>

I am certain that you have the wrong Bishop. Here is a New York Times article, which has the correct Bishop <CRESPI, not Reyes> and correct Mission; <Namely TUBAC, not Tumacacori>
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9B0DE4D91730E433A25756C0A9649D94609FD7CF

The missions were found devoid of anything of value in 1767 on the expulsion of the Jesuits, so it would not be surprising that the Franciscan fathers had made <EDIT - forgot a key word!> FEW improvements on the wealth in the few years between that date and Bishop Reyes in 1772. We have the words of Nentig about just how rich the accouterments were prior to the expulsion. I am aware that this is widely published as the "first visit by a Bishop to the northern missions" but it is incorrect, quote

In 1727, the Bishop of Durango, Don Benito Crespo, visited the missions of Arizona, and wrote to Philip V. in their behalf.

...and we know Tubac did exist in 1727, because in 1726 Tubac is first identified by name by Father Joseph Agustín de Campos SJ.

Of course this is just in case your comment "I believe you have me convinced." was in jest, an attempt to cast light-hearted aspersons on my "research abilities" and for the sake of accuracy that I have posted the info.

I can see how one might well think the whole story to be apocryphal, if the first bishop visit were in 1772, five years AFTER the Jesuits had been expelled.
Merry Christmas to you Joe and everyone reading this,
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

First Yammy,

I said "IGNORANCE". Maybe you should should read a dictionary before posting online. "IGNORANCE" simply means that you don't have any knowledge about a thing. It doesn't mean that you are $tupid or incapable of learning. It only means that you either have not learned or refuse to understand.

It was also not "my interpretation". It was the specific translation by Theodore Treutline. Maybe you in all your wisdom can find some fault in his translations where Father Burrus SJ or Father Polzer SJ couldn't.

Now back to the subject:

Joe,

First, the National Park Service will and has done everything in their power to discourage any belief in Jesuit Treasure. There is actually a very good reason for this; which I totally agree with! When the mistaken story about Jesuit Treasure being buried under the Mission at Tumacacori was spread around, several attempts were made to dig up the grounds. People from all over were digging holes in places they shouldn't. It has destroyed the grounds of many Jesuit Missions everywhere. Too may irresponsible treasure hunters.

Also, in an attempt to turn the Santa Cruz River Valley into a Wilderness Area, the National Park Service has systematically tried to hide and obfuscate every evidence of it's historical mining activity.

Here is a little quote from the Frank S. Ingalls Report to Congress of 1906:

Quote Affidavit of Joseph King, Exhibit No. 8.
“My name is Joseph King, aged 71 years. I now reside and have resided on my ranch about 800 yards east of the old Tumacacori Church or Mission since April, 1865. … While I was employed at the Salero I saw the Salero mine and it had the appearance of having been worked many years before. … I have seen at the Tumacacori mission old slag piles with mesquite trees growing up through them…. “ Unquote

Quote Affidavit of George Atkinson, Exhibit No. 12.
“My name is George W. Atkinson, aged 60 years. I reside at Calabasas… I have lived there with my family since January 1st, 1879. … The presence of deep shafts, large dumps, great piles of slag, and old arastras, show conclusively that mining operations in these mountains and within the claimed lines of the Baca Float No. 3, had been carried on very extensively, and undoubtedly with profit, as they show large expenditures of time and money. These mines were worked years before 1863, as is shown by these excavations. The working of mines in and about Salero Hill in 1861 and thereafter is a matter of common knowledge among residents of the country. … I am acquainted with the San Cayetano mountains… The mountain is all mineral, and all about it, from its base to its summit, are evidences of large mining operations having been carried on…” Unquote

Quote Affidavit of Sabino Otero, Exhibit No. 5.
“Sabino Otero, being first duly sworn, testified as follows, - I am a resident of Tubac, … I was born in said Tubac in 1844. … I am well acquainted with Salero Hill and its neighborhood. … There is much evidence of mining having been carried on in the Santa Rita mountains…many years before the country passed under American control. My father and uncle informed me that ores from the Salero and Huebabi and other near-by mines, were brought to Tumacacori and treated there. I have seen at the old mission piles of slag, with large mesquite trees growing out of said slag-piles, showing that the smelting occurred long ago, -- certainly before I was born. The Huebabi mine is located about 8 miles North of the Huebabi Mission on a range of mountains between the Potrero Creek and the said mission, and just South of old Fort Mason. … Unquote

“My name is Allen T. Bird, aged 56 years. Have resided in Nogales, Santa Cruz County, Arizona, during the eleven years last past. I am the editor of “The Oasis” newspaper published in Nogales, and by profession a mining engineer.

My knowledge of the region included in the Baca Float Grant No. 3 was acquired through personal observation made during many and frequent business and professional trips into the region, where I have had mining interests for a number of years,--being interested in the “Wandering Jew” and “Joplin” group of claims in the Tyndall District in said county, and the “great Excelsior”, a property away up in the Santa Rita mountains some ten miles North from the Wandering Jew. …

In our own properties we have found unmistakable evidences of former occupancy and operations. Upon the “Wandering Jew” mine we stripped the top of the ledge a distance of nearly 300 feet between two shafts we were sinking. Our first work on the trench we dug about four feet in depth was in virgin ground, and our excavation exposed the mineral in the ledge, which is a high grade galena, interspersed with gray copper. At the end of about 150 feet we broke into an old working that had been completed much the same as our own, and afterward covered over. First small saplings and boughs of trees had been laid across the trench, which was on a side hill just below the crest of a ridge. The network of boughs and saplings was covered with a thick layer of closely matted twigs, over these was laid a layer of grass, and upon that a layer of dirt. In a very short time after that covering was made, natural causes assimilated its appearance with the adjacent earth, so no one could detect the covered work. We stopped throwing off this old covering when we reached the dump of our own shaft, and made no effort to carry it beyond the dump. Had we sunk the shaft on the vein we should have penetrated the same old working, but we had sunk between two veins and cross-cut both, our object being to cut each away below the old work uncovered in the trench. That work we believe to have been done by the Jesuit missionaries, the ruins of whose old church in the Santa Cruz Valley, at Tumacacori, are visible from the “Wandering Jew” ridge. That mission was abandoned about 1769 at the time of the expulsion of the Jesuits from Mexico. The Tumacacori priests are said to have left records to show that they operated mines in the Santa Rita mountains and shipped the bullion.

Col. Poston, in his work on Arizona, quotes the Jesuit records wherein is given a description of the location of their property. It states that standing in the church and looking through the east door towards the mountains, about ten miles distant is seen a sharp picacho or pinnacle, and that near that are the mines worked by the priests. Standing in the old ruined church today and looking through the east door, there is discovered the pinnacle described in the record, and it is the highest point on the ridge through which runs the “Wandering Jew” ledge. The work we uncovered we believe to be a part of that done by the Jesuits. And somewhere in that hill are doubtless deeper and more extensive working, co-temporary and covered in the same way.

Upon the Great Excelsior are found already completed a tunnel more than two hundred feet in length, by whom done and when no one has ever known. The old time workers, whoever they were, first leveled off a bench about thirty feet wide in the side hill from which they started their tunnel. The first fifty-five feet are through solid syenite, and then the ore body is penetrated and tunnel cut into that about 480 feet, in ore all the way, with ore still in the face. About sixteen feet before the end is reached there is a drift eighteen feet wide to the right, and about one hundred feet nearer the tunnel entrance are two other drifts, one twenty-seven feet to the left, the other sixteen feet to the left. These drifts are all in ore. The ore is granular iron pyrites, that carries a little gold, -- not exceeding two or three dollars per ton. In that tunnel we found an old wooden wheelbarrow. There wasn’t a nail or a bit of iron in it. The wheel was a slice out of the trunk of a tree, and all of its joints were fastened with rawhide thongs. Upon the shelf outside a bulk-head had been built from tree trunks, and the ore taken out of the workings piled up against it, -- more than 200 tons. The tunnel itself is small but as straight as an arrow, and the floor and arch are as smoothly cut and dressed as if the work had been done by a stone-cutter for a building. When or by whom that work was done, even tradition is silent. In the old Tumacacori mine, sold by one of my partners, Mark Lully, with the Apache Chief group, there is an old shaft, which tradition credits to the Jesuits. Many other claims in the vicinity have similar Antigua workings.” Unquote

So, the evidence of Jesuit involvement in Mining Activities (to me at least) is incontrovertable. There are many more proofs that are held in private collections of treasure hunters who are actively hunting Jesuit Caches.

So, basically, what this entire exercise proves to me is that there are some people who will never believe, no matter what evidence is presented them, in the idea of Jesuits doing ANYTHING bad or anything that netted them great wealth. There are also others who have no knowledge of a given subject, but inject only gainsaying arguments and provide no intellectual criticism with evidence backing their side. Only "Negative Nancy" snide remarks and "NUH UH" type arguments.

Merry Christmas-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"So, the evidence of Jesuit involvement in Mining Activities (to me at least) is incontrovertable. There are many more proofs that are held in private collections of treasure hunters who are actively hunting Jesuit Caches."

I'm glad you find it so convincing as to be incontrovertible.

[Incontrovertible evidence is a colloquial term for evidence introduced to prove a fact that is supposed to be so conclusive that there can be no other truth as to the matter; evidence so strong it overpowers contrary evidence, directing a fact-finder to a specific and certain conclusion.]

I fear I many be graduating to the level of "ignorance", as I don't see a single thing in your post(s) that would qualify as incontrovertible. No doubt that is just a personal failing on my part.

I will continue to follow your evidence, as well as Roy's and Beth's, in an attempt to become educated on the matter.

Best to you and your's for a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Take care,

Joe

 

[rochha]

Joe wrote:

" How you conclude that is beyond me ".

Thats what happens when you make a post in haste, of subject matter you let get personal, " quote " from one source a " quote " from another source of a book you don’t have to reference it, to see how it was put into context originally!

Rochha

Hope everyone has a Merry Christmas