JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Brincador el JOE. You posted --->You will need to send that directly to Don Jose's Email address.
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Nah, actually I accepted him at his word, but there will be others in here that want proof.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[deducer]

deducer,

Don't know how much you have read about the Jesuit expulsion or history, but I have researched it extensively.

I don't know, for a fact, that any of the "found" Kino bars are authentic. None have ever been examined by experts. All we have are the stories. Where are the 1028 silver bars today? They would be worth considerably more than the silver content.

Yet you just stated that Kino prefered payment in silver bars. Are you then contradicting yourself? I think Gollum has explained already (and not just once) why Kenworthy chose not to make his discovery public.

You, apparently, would be hard pressed to find Franciscan cases of the same type of stories. I would not.

Would you have several examples? I would be interested in reading about them.

The king was being told stories by enemies of the Jesuits. He, and they, believed they would find the hoards of treasure you are wishing you could find. They found nothing.........I repeat, nothing!

Well that's not surprising if you understand how Jesuit history is replete with constant concealment because of the nature of their organization (RME). But to use the New World as an example, there were nothing less than at least two false warnings as far as explusion, so it wasn't as if they were caught unprepared.

Also what makes you think I'm "wishing" to find treasure?

What you find as "clearly an act of idolatry towards Kino and Jesuits in general" was a simple and easy method of accounting for the miners. I used to be a strong believer in Jesuit mining and treasure, until I started reading their history.....in Mexico. That was around forty-years ago.

That would require the assumption that these silver bars were produced by Spanish miners. There is no evidence pointing to that. The size and shape of the Kino silver ingots are consistent with the size and shape of other Jesuit bars that were discovered, though.

Would you care to elaborate on how your study of Jesuit history in Mexico is applicable towards your opinion of Jesuit mining and treasure in general?

It's just history, and sometimes it bites.

I think you mean to say it's your interpretation of Jesuit history that "bites." I have found my interpretation to be otherwise, not just from textual research, but by being presented with visual evidence and supporting arguments, in this forum and elsewhere.

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

The king was being told stories by enemies of the Jesuits. He, and they, believed they would find the hoards of treasure you are wishing you could find. They found nothing.........I repeat, nothing!

I realize this comment was addressed to our mutual amigo Deducer, however it is quite incorrect. Perhaps you have forgotten? A search done of the Jesuit missions in southern Baja turned up a cache of some 7000 pesos in gold dust. Maybe that is pigeon feed to you, but in todays terms that would equate to roughly 350 ounces of gold! Hardly NOTHING, and very damming that it was found in a Jesuit mission, hidden.


The Jesuits were not just wealthy, they were EXTREMELY wealthy. One estimate put their holdings in Mexico at the time of their expulsion at 80% of the wealth of the entire country. A great deal of the money and bullion has never been found. The Jesuits owned and operated mines and ore millsin Mexico - yet very little of the precious metals produced by those mines has ever been accounted for.


It is almost as if we had not had a four year debate, with over 1100 posts in just this thread, many others in other threads but on the same topic. You refuse to take note of the fact that the Jesuits did in fact own and operate mines, that they owned huge estates and herds of livestock, that their seized secret bank accounts in the Netherlands and elsewhere had as much money as many national treasuries. It seems as if to you, if there are not vast Jesuit treasures in the Superstitions, which are very unlikely, then there can not be any at all. I would suggest that you re-read our previous discussion here. Either that or perhaps if the evidence is not in books that you personally own, you refuse to acknowledge them? If such is the case, I can email you the study done on the Jesuit wealth in Mexico, 1767.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, please do continue.
Oroblanco

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

I hope i get the chance to show some markings on some bars from different eras. and i cant get some help on the markings,like who claimed ownership and approx.year.

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

Here is a link with some samples. 82 pounds of Gold found.

1oro1.com/jesuits/rqfind.html

 

[deducer]

I realize this comment was addressed to our mutual amigo Deducer, however it is quite incorrect. Perhaps you have forgotten? A search done of the Jesuit missions in southern Baja turned up a cache of some 7000 pesos in gold dust. Maybe that is pigeon feed to you, but in todays terms that would equate to roughly 350 ounces of gold! Hardly NOTHING, and very damning that it was found in a Jesuit mission, hidden.

To this we add just a few examples: La Purisima Concepcion, Lost Guadalope, Lost San Pedro, Padre LaRue's Gold, Bells of Guevavi, Lost Treasure of Del Bac, Opata Silver, The Mine with the Iron Door, Carretta Canyon Treasure, Lost Treasure of Sonoyta, Lost Bells of Tumacacorci, all of which have ties to the Jesuits.

This is a case where proof isn't necessarily the question here, but that there is sufficient enough smoke to reasonably assume there is fire.

Also, the two attempts at explusion occurred both in the early 1740's and again in 1749 as cited in "The Opatans: In search of a Sonoran People" by David Yetman (see attached). So it is reasonable to assume that as early as 1750 it was pretty obvious to the Jesuits that it was only a matter of time before they were successfully expelled. This gave them 17 long years in which to put their skills of concealment to work.

 

[cactusjumper]

Yet you just stated that Kino prefered payment in silver bars. Are you then contradicting yourself? I think Gollum has explained already (and not just once) why Kenworthy chose not to make his discovery public. Would you have several examples? I would be interested in reading about them. Well that's not surprising if you understand how Jesuit history is replete with constant concealment because of the nature of their organization (RME). But to use the New World as an example, there were nothing less than at least two false warnings as far as explusion, so it wasn't as if they were caught unprepared. Also what makes you think I'm "wishing" to find treasure? That would require the assumption that these silver bars were produced by Spanish miners. There is no evidence pointing to that. The size and shape of the Kino silver ingots are consistent with the size and shape of other Jesuit bars that were discovered, though. Would you care to elaborate on how your study of Jesuit history in Mexico is applicable towards your opinion of Jesuit mining and treasure in general? I think you mean to say it's your interpretation of Jesuit history that "bites." I have found my interpretation to be otherwise, not just from textual research, but by being presented with visual evidence and supporting arguments, in this forum and elsewhere.

deducer,

I appreciate your reply.

I fear I'm not up for going through all of my books looking for individual sources for my comments. If, like me, you are interested enough in the history of Colonial Mexico, you will spend the time and money to find your own "facts".

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

deducer,

I appreciate your reply.

I fear I'm not up for going through all of my books looking for individual sources for my comments. If, like me, you are interested enough in the history of Colonial Mexico, you will spend the time and money to find your own "facts".

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

I have found my "facts" but I am also interested in discussing or debating, and in reading the subsequent responses as I am always eager to learn something new. I think you have much to offer but am not sure why you are very insistent on denying what is pretty obvious, namely what the Jesuits were really doing in the New World.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

"D" you asked ---.but am not sure why you are very insistent on denying what is pretty obvious
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FAITH, FAITH Deducer.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

I have found my "facts" but I am also interested in discussing or debating, and in reading the subsequent responses as I am always eager to learn something new. I think you have much to offer but am not sure why you are very insistent on denying what is pretty obvious, namely what the Jesuits were really doing in the New World.

deducer,

I have mentioned a number of times that I believed some Jesuits did become involved with mining in Mexico. On the other hand, I don't believe they were as extensively invested as treasure legends suggest. They were always under close scrutiny. They had many enemies and were often working very close to privately owned mines.

The Jesuits were in Mexico, primarily, mining for the souls of the natives. I have no doubts about that.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

deducer,

I have mentioned a number of times that I believed some Jesuits did become involved with mining in Mexico. On the other hand, I don't believe they were as extensively invested as treasure legends suggest. They were always under close scrutiny. They had many enemies and were often working very close to privately owned mines.

The Jesuits were in Mexico, primarily, mining for the souls of the natives. I have no doubts about that.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

The problem with your suggested premise that "some Jesuits did.." is that it is just about impossible to read the journals, letters, or missives of any Jesuit in the New World that does not mention of the practice of mining, or mines in general, or related activities (e.g., Segesser complaining about the price of mercury). It seems to be a subject that was prominent if not foremost on their minds.

I'm not sure what you mean by "mining the souls of the natives." Care to elaborate?

 

[cactusjumper]

The problem with your suggested premise that "some Jesuits did.." is that it is just about impossible to read the journals, letters, or missives of any Jesuit in the New World that does not mention of the practice of mining, or mines in general, or related activities (e.g., Segesser complaining about the price of mercury). It seems to be a subject that was prominent if not foremost on their minds. I'm not sure what you mean by "mining the souls of the natives." Care to elaborate?

deducer,

From the manuscripts of Jacobo Sedelmayr:

"I do not speak of mines of gold and silver, for this is not my province. Nor do the Indians of the Gila and Colorado have such things in mind either, for theirs is no such greed. This none the less does not preclude the possibility of such riches being found in those regions. We can say, however, that no precious metals have thus far been discovered. Indeed, who would discover them? Not the Indians, for they have neither concept, nor evaluation, nor use of silver. Not the Spaniards and people of education, since they have not yet entered or peopled or cultivated those lands. Not the few muleteers who accompany the missionaries in their entradas. It is true they understand about mines and, as has happened during my own journeys, are accustomed too point out now one now another spot as possessing minerals or as giving good promise (which happens as a matter of course and without excitement as they pass by). But the fathers, without the Indians appreciating it, have come to look for other treasures, namely human souls. Therefore giving no heed to material riches they are unable to verify the existence of mines. But should the country become settled, it is very probable that God would reward the royal largess for all disbursement with this additional allurement of mines of gold and silver."

I believe father Jacobo Sedelmayr has written my thoughts out very well.

That was the first book I randomly removed from my bookcase. The second was:

"Juan Antonio Balthasar: Padre Visitador to the Sonora Frontier 1744-1745. Two Original Reports". By Peter Masten Dunne.

In this second book, gold nor silver is mentioned. In addition, no mention of any mines.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[somehiker]

 

[deducer]

I was going to quote from Sedelmayer's relacion of 1746, but SH beat me to it.

You will of course note the extensive discussions of all things mining and it goes on for quite a bit. Note that after he claims to know nothing of gold or silver mining, he promptly contradicts himself by detailing the needs of the "poor miners." How could he know they needed mercury for amalgamation?

In addition to this, I introduce damaging testimony against the good father himself that conflicts with his claim that he came to "mine souls":

"Those who have caused it (the uprising) are Fathers Jacobo Sedelmayr, Ignacio Xavier Keller, and Joseph Garrucho, because of the severity with which they and their mayordomos treat the Indians."

"Even then I was not safe from the persecution of the Fathers, because Lieutenant Don Cristóbal Yañez told me, “You must leave here because I have a letter from Father Jacobo Sedelmayr instructing me to give you fifty lashes and banish you from these parts.”

This from the Indian, Pedro de la Cruz, a.k.a. "Chiguagua," a former miner, who was later accused of fomenting the Pima Uprising of 1751. (From the mission 2000 database).

 

[somehiker]

Sedelmayr's "Relacion" was also requested,written for, and included as part of a report required by the King of Spain.

Joe:

"That was the first book I randomly removed from my bookcase. The second was: "Juan Antonio Balthasar: Padre Visitador to the Sonora Frontier 1744-1745. Two Original Reports". By Peter Masten Dunne. In this second book, gold nor silver is mentioned. In addition, no mention of any mines."
Maybe he didn't mention any gold, silver, or mines in those reports. But..



" They were always under close scrutiny. They had many enemies and were often working very close to privately owned mines."

So, was Balthasar one of these "enemies" ?

Regards:Wayne

 

[cactusjumper]

Sedelmayr's "Relacion" was also requested,written for, and included as part of a report required by the King of Spain. Joe: "That was the first book I randomly removed from my bookcase. The second was: "Juan Antonio Balthasar: Padre Visitador to the Sonora Frontier 1744-1745. Two Original Reports". By Peter Masten Dunne. In this second book, gold nor silver is mentioned. In addition, no mention of any mines." Maybe he didn't mention any gold, silver, or mines in those reports. But.. View attachment 957817 " They were always under close scrutiny. They had many enemies and were often working very close to privately owned mines." So, was Balthasar one of these "enemies" ? Regards:Wayne

Wayne,

I believe you are in error as to attributing that charge to Balthasar. I would suggest a more thorough reading of Dunn. As I have always said, the Jesuits, in the final analyses, are simply men. They came with many of the faults of other men, but they did their best to save the Indians from the Spaniards who wished to make them slaves for the mines. Things were different in those days. What is an abomination today was considered acceptable in that era......right or wrong.

Do you consider an "accusation" to be....truth? What became of that accusation? The Spanish kept very good records. The answer to that question is out there, and I believe it was found to be untrue. Being at work, I will need to check it when I get home.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

I believe those specific charges came from and through these people: Don Jose Baserte, General Centurioni, Jose de Galvez and Ignazio Visconti. I believe there was some friction between those men and the Jesuit Order.

That history should not be difficult to research.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

It wasn't difficult at all Joe.
Dunn's " Black Robes in Lower California" is one source.





"I believe you are in error as to attributing that charge to Balthasar."

The "error" seems to be Dunne's, rather than mine.

Regards:Wayne

 

[deducer]

They came with many of the faults of other men, but they did their best to save the Indians from the Spaniards who wished to make them slaves for the mines.

May I then direct your attention to The Sonoran Missions and Indian Raids of the Eighteenth Century by Maria Soledad Arbelaez, from the Journal of the Southwest, Vol. 33, No. 3 (Autumn, 1991), pp. 366-386, whereas:

An outstanding feature of these [missions] reports is the constant complaint raised by the Jesuits that the main reason for the Indian attacks was to pillage the mis- sions' property, and that the principal spoils of the Indian incursions were cattle and horses. The rest of the mission's property apparently remained untouched, or so it seems from the Jesuit records, which also suggest that, occasionally, total destruction occurred from these Indian raids. Despite such claims, however, total destruction was rarely the case since the Indians attacked symbols of domination:church buildings, crosses, and saints' images.

So it seems that in regard to your claim above, the Indians thought otherwise.

 

[Oroblanco]

It is a poor argument to say that the Jesuits were "saving" or "protecting" the poor Indios from the evil Spaniards, when the Jesuits were forcing the same Indios to labor for them at the various missions and visitas, and the Indians were not free to even leave their missions without permission from the padres.

We have covered this before, but the Indians themselves sometimes fled from the padres to the Spanish and begged their protection. Coupled with this, we find Jesuits complaining about their mission Indians running away from the missions to go work for the Spanish in the mines, refusing to be coaxed back, even when promised mines of gold and silver. I am sorry but NO WAY that the Jesuits were mainly concerned about the souls of the poor Indians, when even the Pope himself alluded to their "unfortunate tendency to acquisitiveness" in the Papal Bull dissolving the Order "forever".

The Jesuits concern for "their" Indians is more like a wish to set up their own quasi-religious state, as they attempted to do in Paraguay/Uruguay, where the priests ruled the land and had their own armies, controlling ALL trade and production. The Jesuits were, in every place they went to act as missionaries, first and foremost concerned with profits, not souls. I would suggest re-reading the report of father Garces on his arrival in Pimeria Alta circa 1768, and found the Indians utterly un-schooled in the Christian faith; able to recite some things but with no understanding of the words. And the same Indians were pleased that they would not be used as forced labor, it might be pointed out. I think this was posted earlier, so if it is redundant I ask your indulgence;

Don Juan Bautista de Anza


My Dear Sir:


I arrived at this mission the 30th of June having been at your house en route, where your wife and servants elegantly put into practice their




[page 27]


charity as you have instructed and accustomed them to do. There is nothing new here.
The Indians expect to be advised to go out to campaign. They are very wild, without doctrine even in their own language, because, although they pray together, no one by himself understands. Even the most advanced respond with any word, so I endeavor to get them to come to catechism. Yet it is not achieved unless it is in the greater number of youngsters who do it well. On the contrary are those who have already reached adulthood: these only attend on feast days. They say that they have always been reared so that adults go to the fields and the children to catechism. For the present I do not urge earnestly until I see how things are.


The Tugsones gave me to understand that they have not wanted any other priest than me, having understood the goal I impose on them that the priest does not come so that they might work for him, etc., with which they are rather happy. They have already built me, a little hut among their own. Three times I have been there and I have told them that in the coming month of August I am going to stay some fifteen days, and that they are my children like those of San Javier, and it appears that they are in a good humor.


The soldiers behave divinely, giving a good example in calling these people to the doctrine as any good Christian is obligated to do.


In my harvest time, I expect illnesses and other hardships which everyone has predicted for me. Yet right now only the flies and mosquitoes have moderated. As for the rest, you know how things can go with me.


The Jesuit fathers of San Javier, with all their cows, fields, horses, etc., were occupied with labors, but with my stipend I shall not be, good sire. I commend it to God who alone is able to bring you here, but may it be as soon as possible that we may together enjoy this carefree existence. Here they call one room that of the captain. Thus it has been and shall be, and not for a poor house of St. Francis have they to leave. I await news, and if God aids our arms and some captains or troops are in Pitíc, I should like to know it.


God Our Father, etc. San Javier. July 29, 1768


FR. FRANCISCO GARCÉS

<Letter to Anza from father Garces>

And also, from the same author,

… These missions of San Xavier and of the Tugson are quiet. The Indians are content to see that our King wants them as people and not as slaves. As regards doctrine: in the Tugson, none. They have not prayed nor have they a fiscal. In San Xavier, a little less than none, because they do not know it either in Spanish or in their own language.



[page 28]


They have never known it in their own tongue. This is not the worst, because here it has never been possible to assemble the married adults, not even on most occasions our own partisans. Consequently, with great diligence I succeeded in gathering the young people, but few married persons among them. I did not employ violent means to overcome their resistance because things are as they are, and so that I might test other methods. Everyone goes to live in the maizefields and plantings, which they greatly love. This pleases me because thus they eat and halfway clothe themselves. I trust in God that He shall succeed in teaching them the Doctrine with the measures that may be taken

This is the state of affairs as father Garces found the Jesuit missions in Arizona on his arrival - the Indians with no knowledge of their religion, which the Jesuits has supposedly been "teaching" them for seventy years. Also note the Indians expecting to be treated as slaves, indicating that is how the Jesuits treated them.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco