JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

cactusjumper said:
Roy,

Fact is, there are cases of Jesuits hiding the church "treasures" in caves and having the loyal natives seal them up during times of impending uprisings. When order was restored, the natives would bring back whatever was hidden. One of those dim memories I mentioned.

Take care,

Joe
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I would greatly appreciate reading more about those cases if you could provide me with some references or at least point me in the right direction, that is, if we're talking about uprisings in the SW.
 

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deducer said:
I would greatly appreciate reading more about those cases if you could provide me with some references or at least point me in the right direction, that is, if we're talking about uprisings in the SW.
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deducer,

This is a case where I would be lost knowing which books to look in. Over the years, I have bought and read many books on the missions of Mexico. I will do some quick skimming of some of the books I think may mention such things, but it would take weeks to go through the books I have purchased over the last 40+ years while I have researched the subject.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

cactusjumper said:
deducer,

This is a case where I would be lost knowing which books to look in. Over the years, I have bought and read many books on the missions of Mexico. I will do some quick skimming of some of the books I think may mention such things, but it would take weeks to go through the books I have purchased over the last 40+ years while I have researched the subject.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
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That would be great. As far as the history/area of Pimera Alta- off the top of my head, I am aware of two such instances where "concealment" took place. The First being Fr. Kino's concealing church relics during the 1695 Pima uprising, and in 1751 during another uprising, Fr. Keller in a letter to Fr. Stiger indicated that he had come to Terrenate to "hide the ornaments of a church and a family."
 

It's one thing to talk about church treasure - it's another to see some. This Chino Mines (owned by Kennecott then) newsletter article dates from the late 1960's, as I recall - the original is filed too deep to verify today.


Lupton.jpg
 

that would look very nice on the mastiff lover
 

Temperance gentlemen ! We are searching for other kind of treasures . :wink:
 

cactusjumper said:
JG,

Not sure how you could ever look at anything beyond that beautiful face. Of course I am getting old before my time.:crybaby2:

Good Luck,

Joe Ribaudo
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well thank you Joe ( ahem I am heterosexual)
 

cactusjumper said:
Don Jose, Can you tell us what the crown has to do with the Chino Mine????? Take care, Joe
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You mean me, I assume, not DJ.

Even though the New Mexico state historian will tell you that the Chino Mine began with Carrasco in 1802, Spanish military records clearly indicate mining activity at Santa Rita and Pinos Altos in the mid-1700's, as records of punitive actions against the Apaches show. Local traditions push the original dates much further back.

A cast church bell was found and hauled back to the horse corrals near the Gila River headwaters in the 1960's by a couple drunk cowboys, but when they sobered up, they couldn't remember where they found it. Or so they said. My guess is the bell may hvae come fromTodos Santos, a settlement near the mouth of Bear Creek, near Gila, NM, dating back at least to 1715 since it was already known about then by Mogollon.

So, the crown? Nobody to my knowledge has documented its origin. My whiskey guess would be Santa Rita from a date in the 17th century.
 

Another instance of concealment in the SW:

In 1732, the Pima and Papago tribes attacked the missions at Del Bac, Tumacocori, and Guevavi. There is a record of an abundance of silver altar pieces from Del Bac being concealed. Also again, another concealment operation during the 1751 uprising, concerning those missions. 1751 being a substantially larger uprising which resulted in the death of Fr. Xavier Saeta, and two other figures.

Quite frankly, "concealment" is so interwound with Jesuit history, it is not outlandish to then expect that the art of concealment, disguise, or covert action became part of the Jesuit curriculum, and that they then became quite skilled in it. It then goes without question to presume that where the Jesuits tread, concealment follows.

Here is an interesting story about Jesuit "concealment" that took place roughly 150 years prior to what happened in the New World; note the "secret compartment contained within the secret compartment" as evidence of sophisticated concealment:

Harvington Hall Priest Holes
 

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deducer said:
Another instance of concealment in the SW: In 1732, the Pima and Papago tribes attacked the missions at Del Bac, Tumacocori, and Guevavi. There is a record of an abundance of silver altar pieces from Del Bac being concealed. Also again, another concealment operation during the 1751 uprising, concerning those missions. 1751 being a substantially larger uprising which resulted in the death of Fr. Xavier and Fr. Saeta, and two other figures. Quite frankly, "concealment" is so interwound with Jesuit history, it is not outlandish to then expect that the art of concealment, disguise, or covert action became part of the Jesuit curriculum, and that they then became quite skilled in it. It then goes without question to presume that where the Jesuits tread, concealment follows. Here is an interesting story about Jesuit "concealment" that took place roughly 150 years prior to what happened in the New World; note the "secret compartment contained within the secret compartment" as evidence of sophisticated concealment: Harvington Hall Priest Holes
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deducer,

People who have been persecuted have a really bad habit of finding or making places to hide.:dontknow:

As for "an abundance of silver altar pieces".......Lists of such things are commonplace in church records. I have such a listing of things in more than one book at home. I can assure you, it won't be a "treasure" worth spending much time searching......for the silver content. Believe it will be around a half-dozen pieces, most of them contributions from church patrons or supplied to each mission by the King's treasury.

The Jesuits supplied many of the mines around them with beef, vegetables, church services. Most were paid for by ingots of silver. Father Kino insisted on payment in silver bars. I would assume the mines would engrave his name on the ingots as being set aside for such payments.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

cactusjumper said:
deducer,

People who have been persecuted have a really bad habit of finding or making places to hide.:dontknow:

As for "an abundance of silver altar pieces".......Lists of such things are commonplace in church records. I have such a listing of things in more than one book at home. I can assure you, it won't be a "treasure" worth spending much time searching......for the silver content. Believe it will be around a half-dozen pieces, most of them contributions from church patrons or supplied to each mission by the King's treasury.

The Jesuits supplied many of the mines around them with beef, vegetables, church services. Most were paid for by ingots of silver. Father Kino insisted on payment in silver bars. I would assume the mines would engrave his name on the ingots as being set aside for such payments.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
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What is germane to the discussion is whether there are such things as Jesuits treasures, and it is in this context that I bring up 'concealment.'

Frankly, you would be hard pressed to find (for example) a Franciscan who acted in similar fashion, as far as "concealing' or otherwise engaging in covert action.

In regard to Kino demanding payments in silver bars, then one wonders why a good deal of them found their way into the ground rather than into the King's coffers or elsewhere? Via Gollum, we have Kenworthy's 1028 silver bars, hardly pocket change, if you will. I doubt it was Kino's intention (if he ever was aware of them) to then to send any of those bars down south. Imagine the uproar or indignation over silver bars stamped not with the King's crown or another form of royal affiliation, but with something that was clearly an act of idolatry towards Kino and Jesuits in general.

In this sense, in that these bars were possessed, "Jesuits treasures" are real.

And as for being "persecuted," as far as the Jesuits come to mind, the question is this: Why the secrecy behind the expulsion decree which was to be executed after midnight (6/25/1767), if the only thing King Charles III suspected them of was regicide or violating the terms of their participation in the New World?

We read in his decree:

all troops, militia or civilian, shall render the necessary assistance, without any delay or evasion, under pain of the delinquent's falling under my royal indignation
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It would seem to me that these are hardly the actions of someone who merely wanted to disband an organization.
 

deducer said:
What is germane to the discussion is whether there are such things as Jesuits treasures, and it is in this context that I bring up 'concealment.' Frankly, you would be hard pressed to find (for example) a Franciscan who acted in similar fashion, as far as "concealing' or otherwise engaging in covert action. In regard to Kino demanding payments in silver bars, then one wonders why a good deal of them found their way into the ground rather than into the King's coffers or elsewhere? Via Gollum, we have Kenworthy's 1028 silver bars, hardly pocket change, if you will. I doubt it was Kino's intention (if he ever was aware of them) to then to send any of those bars down south. Imagine the uproar or indignation over silver bars stamped not with the King's crown or another form of royal affiliation, but with something that was clearly an act of idolatry towards Kino and Jesuits in general. In this sense, in that these bars were possessed, "Jesuits treasures" are real. And as for being "persecuted," as far as the Jesuits come to mind, the question is this: Why the secrecy behind the expulsion decree which was to be executed after midnight (6/25/1767), if the only thing King Charles III suspected them of was regicide or violating the terms of their participation in the New World? We read in his decree: It would seem to me that these are hardly the actions of someone who merely wanted to disband an organization.
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deducer,

Don't know how much you have read about the Jesuit expulsion or history, but I have researched it extensively.

I don't know, for a fact, that any of the "found" Kino bars are authentic. None have ever been examined by experts. All we have are the stories. Where are the 1028 silver bars today? They would be worth considerably more than the silver content.

You, apparently, would be hard pressed to find Franciscan cases of the same type of stories. I would not.

The king was being told stories by enemies of the Jesuits. He, and they, believed they would find the hoards of treasure you are wishing you could find. They found nothing.........I repeat, nothing!

What you find as "clearly an act of idolatry towards Kino and Jesuits in general" was a simple and easy method of accounting for the miners. I used to be a strong believer in Jesuit mining and treasure, until I started reading their history.....in Mexico. That was around forty-years ago.

It's just history, and sometimes it bites.:dontknow:

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

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JOSE de le brincador del Cholla. you posted ---->The king was being told stories by enemies of the Jesuits. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Since the rivalry was intense, naturally , and also they in turn---- !!

What really caused them to be expelled was their plot with the Dutch to take North America away from Spain.

As has been explained to the room several times, you are correct, the Jesuit 'Ordained Priests' ( which includes the mission priests ) did very little actual mining, But that they did, is verified by they themselves.

They openly mined every where else in the World, especially in the old world. this should clarify their "Oath of Poverty" Quite similar to today's religious holdings, which the public is virtually unaware of.

Never argue with the "Dakotian Tayoper", ' He never comes to the dueling section unprepared.

. Don Jose de a Mancha
 

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