JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

Can you tell me what this means?:

"Aragoneses <Jesuit LAY BROTHERS>"

Thank you in advance.

Jesuit Lay Brothers are members of the Society of Jesus whom have not risen to the full rank of priest. I am sure that our amigo Lamar could explain this status fully. Much of the general, non-religious work of the missions was done and/or supervised by Lay Brothers, and I have often wondered just how Amerindians were supposed to recognize any difference.

If you are asking what is meant by "Aragoneses" it refers to their country of origin, Aragon, these two intrepid prospector-explorers whom were Jesuit Lay Brothers hailed from.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

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[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
More evidence to prove that the Jesuits were involved in mining and held considerable treasures.

A picture of the massive furnaces built by Jesuits in San Luis de la Paz, Mexico, where they took over the Santa Brigida mine
Hornos Jesuitas en Pozos

A picture of the House of Treasures, a Jesuit building in the same place
La Casa de los Tesoros,
una de las Edificaciones Jesuitas

I hope I have not been TOO sarcastic, I was trying to present the evidence in response to the usual arguments put forth claiming there never was any Jesuit mining, nor any Jesuit treasures. If you read Hoskold's report, which includes one definite mining claim owned by a Jesuit Lay Brother, you will see that he does not rely solely on "stories passed down" but on actual registries. Hoskold was no bumbling amateur or treasure hunter, nor would I consider the official report he authored to be based on "stories".

I do not understand why our modern Jesuit apologists want us NOT to know of their previous record. Hoskold wrote that it was obvious the Jesuits intended to return at some date in the future, which would be very strong grounds to keep "the public" in a state of disbelief or confusion at least.

So if the Jesuits were successfully mining, our Apologists will say, are we to believe that it was then "smuggled" into Spain under the very noses of the Spanish authorities? Yes and NO - there was NO NEED to smuggle. All jewelry was exempt, for example, which resulted in some very large gold and silver chains being made to be worn by the person "smuggling" - and all Church property was likewise exempt from taxation - silver plates, goblets, bowls, candlesticks, etc. What evidence is there that any such treasures ever existed? (We own one piece of ancient jewelry, but of course someone will cry it must be fake) Here are the words of a pirate, a buccaneer who served with the illustrious or notorious Captain Morgan himself, on the capture of the 400 ton ship Santissima Trinidad

...one certain galleon, which miraculously escaped their inustry, being very richly laden with all the King's plate and great quantity of rich of gold, pearl, jewels an other most precious goods, of all the best an richest merchants of Panama. On board of the galleon were also th ereligious women, belonging to the nunnery of the said city, who had embarked with them all the ornaments of their church, consisting in great quantity of gold, plate and other things of great value.

<The Buccaneers of America, in the original English translation of 1684, by John Esquemeling, pp 226>

Pirate raids were a constant menace - Maracaibo (Venezuela) was raided not less than FIVE times, as a reaction to this menace the padres and nuns built underground tunnels and an underground vault where the Church treasure could be safely hidden. The pirate raid on Lima (Peru) stands out also for here were some of the very richest churches, including the Jesuit Basilica of Saint Paul, later changed to Saint Peter after their expulsion.

I still do not understand how some fail to see a "disconnect" here, when the Jesuits were SO successful that they were perceived as direct competition with the laity, and yet were supposed to be SO poverty stricken. Doesn't that strike anyone as just a little bit incredible? The riches held by the Jesuits were not wholly discovered by the Spanish authorities on the expulsion - but what they were found to have is a considerable fortune;
"At the time of the expulsion of the Jesuits from the Spanish Empire in 1767, the reducciones were enormously wealthy and comprised more than 21,000 families. Their vast herds included approximately 725,000 head of cattle, 47,000 oxen, 99,000 horses, 230,000 sheep, 14,000 mules, and 8,000 donkeys."

More to come...
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[rochha]

Roy wrote:

“It is a well established fact that the Jesuits wrote a description of their principal mines indicating their situation and nature and at their expulsion it is believed that these documents were taken to Spain. “

I believe some of these documents would be the one’s that would contain heavily coded information.

Joe…Are you saying that all of these places Roy gave as examples arn’t even worthy of a suspicion of mining with possible hidden wealth? Or do you think they are all still nothing more than legends?

Roy wrote:

“ I do not know why anyone would expect us to find all sorts of Jesuit-written documents proving they were illegally mining in the Americas. Mike has shown us their "paranoia" about their secrets being discovered in their own letters. Why is it that virtually everywhere in the Americas where there are gold and silver mines, we have "legends" of Jesuit mines? In Brazil it is the Muribeca mines, in Bolivia it is the Sacambaya mines, in Mexico, Peru, Columbia, Canada etc we find these same types of stories of Jesuit mines. All invented by treasure writers, our Jesuit apologists denounce. There is a lot of smoke there amigos, and while not spelled out specifically in the edict of the king of Spain, the Jesuits successful business ventures and long history of disobedience do not help the Apologists case. “

You summed that up rather nicely!

Rochha

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA again amigos,
I must beg your indulgence yet further. As our Jesuits so frequently point to their PERSONAL vows of poverty, yet there is no such restraint on the Order as a whole, nor on the Church, still even so, just how POOR were the Jesuits?

A view inside the Jesuit Cathedral Basilica of Salvador, city of Salvador, in the State of Bahia, in Brazil.

And NO, that AIN'T GOLD PAINT!

Well, our Jesuit Apologists will say, that Cathedral is the exception, those missions of Sonora and northern Mexico were POOR; well dear readers, consider this; the province of Baja California was the POOREST province of all, except for some silver mines and the pearl fishery of course, in fact it was SO poor that the king of Spain had to help with the expenses of the province out of his royal treasury. So we ought to expect the Jesuit missions there were correspondingly POOR also right? Here is a photo of the Jesuit mission in Loreto, Baja California

Here is a view of a Jesuit mission to the Tarahumaras, St. Francis Xavier Mission Church <Mexico>

More to come...
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Here is a view of the altar in the Jesuit mission in Loreto, Baja California

Beautiful isn't it? This in the very poorest province, poorer than Sonora (and Pimeria Alta) and yet even here we see quite respectable wealth.

More to come...
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I am very familiar with the "Lay Brothers" and their role in the Jesuit Order. In the quote below, I believe Aragoneses is being used as a surname, or family:

"The native Indians did no more than explore on the surface but such works were continued by the Jesuits and after their expulsion by their successors the Aragoneses <Jesuit LAY BROTHERS>"

In any event, I was under the impression that the Lay Brothers were also suppressed. The Franciscans replace the Jesuits when they were expelled from Argentina.

Can you tell me how far those "massive furnaces" were from the fort/settlement? Is it possible they were built by someone other than the Jesuits?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

I am very familiar with the "Lay Brothers" and their role in the Jesuit Order. In the quote below, I believe Aragoneses is being used as a surname, or family:

"The native Indians did no more than explore on the surface but such works were continued by the Jesuits and after their expulsion by their successors the Aragoneses <Jesuit LAY BROTHERS>"

In any event, I was under the impression that the Lay Brothers were also suppressed. The Franciscans replace the Jesuits when they were expelled from Argentina.

Can you tell me how far those "massive furnaces" were from the fort/settlement? Is it possible they were built by someone other than the Jesuits?

If you read Hoskold's full report, it becomes very obvious that when the term "Aragoneses" is used, it is referring to , "the Aragoneses or Lay Jesuits ie Juan Leita and Juan Echavarria" as they were well known in Argentina, and not as any family surname.

I do not know the distance from the furnaces to the fort or settlement, and of course it is POSSIBLE they were built by someone else, but according to the authorities there it is a matter of historical record that they were built by the Jesuits - they are PROUD of them.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"And NO, that AIN'T GOLD PAINT!"

Pretty close. It's a thin layer of gold over ceder wood.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"If you read Hoskold's full report, it becomes very obvious that when the term "Aragoneses" is used, it is referring to , "the Aragoneses or Lay Jesuits ie Juan Leita and Juan Echavarria" as they were well known in Argentina, and not as any family surname."

That's not the way I read it, but I'm not so good as I ustr be.

"....according to the authorities there it is a matter of historical record that they were built by the Jesuits - they are PROUD of them."

Hmmm! Just how secretive did you say those bad Jesuits were


Have a good night......I will have to do a little re-reading.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
Cactusjumper wrote

That's not the way I read it, but I'm not so good as I ustr be

I used his own words in bold type in my previous posts, so as to illustrate that where he says "Aragoneses" he is referring to the only famous Aragoneses of his country - two Lay Jesuits named Juan Leita and Juan Echavarria. Few of us can claim to be "as good as ustr be", certainly not myself, but then that would be to imply that at some point in the past I was somehow better, which many folks would take issue with!

Cactusjumper also wrote

Just how secretive did you say those bad Jesuits were

Secretive enough when it came to their actual ownership of mines AND treasures - the usual "dodge" being that true title was held by some Jesuit college or school, also often holding title in the names of "trusted friends"as for treasures, they could always claim it belonged to the Church. Some things would be nearly impossible to hide, like huge furnaces - but mines are fairly easy to hide. (You just reminded me of a photo essay I did up while living in AZ, and now have lost that roll of film. I wanted to show our skeptics just how easily a MINE can "vanish" into thin air, using a few examples from Cochise county, with mines that are not hidden by the works of man, just nature. If ever I can find that film, I will start a thread for that topic.)

As an aside Joe, I am NOT aiming my posts at you specifically, rather at the "apologist" side of the issues at hand; I notice that our amigo Lamar has not posted in this thread when I fully expected him to be making every possible argument against our topics. I have great respect for you Joe, and readily understand your stance on these subjects; if we were to believe our treasure writers, the whole of the American west must be dotted with thousands of hidden (secret) Jesuit mines and treasures, on the other hand if we are to believe our modern Jesuit apologists, NONE of any of these ever existed. The truth, as in so many cases, is somewhere in between - individuals being involved rather than the whole of the Order, many mines yes but nothing like thousands, and treasures yes but again not so many and likely none of the vast riches we read of in treasure accounts. The payroll for the soldiers of Baja California for instance, was paid not in money but in goods for years, the value of it being 6000 pesos annually; (later increased to 30,000 pesos and in money), but the scale of these treasures has been hugely exaggerated. Still even so, a lost payroll for a company of soldiers would make a very respectable treasure for us today.

More to follow....
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA again amigos,
I must beg your indulgence still more. Now our Jesuit apologists still repeat the cry of innocence, that the Jesuits never had any mines and point to the lack of documentation as proof of the innocence. As if it were a crime - yet tucked away in the writings of the Jesuits themselves, we find some passages, admittedly few, that certainly show that some of the Jesuits had a very strong interest in mines and how to find them. For example,

Talk persists among the natives that in the neighborhood of the Culebrilla Pass there is a deposit of virgin silver from which an old man dug up what he needed. He carried no mining tools, only a chopping knife to cut off the portion that he deemed sufficient to cover his immediate needs. Then he melted the mass into slugs in order to disguise the richness of the ore. The old man was accompanied by a boy who served as a sentry to warn of the approach of anyone by throwing a rock, but the old man left the boy at a point where the location of the deposit could not be seen. It has not been possible to learn the location of the deposit from either the old man or the boy.

Rather curious words for a Jesuit missionary to write, wouldn't you say? Why would he write that it was not possible to learn the location, unless he had tried? Well, our apologists will say, he was speaking in general terms, not that the missionary was himself involved - surely this must be the case right? Hmm - well just a bit further in the same source, written BY a Jesuit, we find this curious passage,

Another such silver deposit is said to exist on the skirts of the eastern mountain opposite and within sight of the Huásabas Mission. It was thought that the exact location was known to an Indian who died in 1760. However, there is a belief among the natives that he who reveals the site of a mine will soon die. Therefore, a native will not show a mine to a Spaniard for any price, regardless of how advantageous it may be to him, the native, even if the missionary pledges the fulfillment of promises made and the assurance that his life will not be shortened but the Almighty will prolong it if he has the courage to ignore a superstition more fit for old women than brave, sensible men.

So our missionaries WERE directly involved in this questioning to locate the silver mine. This is pretty "dammin" evidence, especially when you consider this is taken from Rudo Ensayo: A DESCRIPTION OF SONORA AND ARIZONA IN 1764, written by Juan Nentvig, S.J.

<Side note but this work is a fascinating read, showing the state of affairs in Sonora and southern Arizona as it existed circa 1764, and that the Jesuit author had intimate knowledge of the mining activities of the province. Would he have had such intimate knowledge, if they were truly SO innocent of any and all mining activities? >

Of course our apologists will declaim that this was simply a mistaken expression or "just this one incident" but that argument really won't hold up under examination. This is not the only such record from the Jesuits own ink!

More to come....
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

For those of you reading this who have called me names when I inferred that Frontier Jesuit Priests were easily capable of, and often did, violate many of the rules and regulations they were supposed to abide by. That they even committed the unspeakable (to a Jesuit) sin of breaking their vows of obedience! What evidence do we have of that? Is it a bunch of isolated instances, or is it a general ignoring of the rules? I say the latter. If you aren't on board with me, read the following:

Precepts of the Visitors General for the whole Province from 20 September 1662:

All of Ours will be careful in their communications with the laity, especially in disclosing to them unfitting matters or what may concern the reputation of another, or disagreements among Ours, or what may redound to someone's discredit.

Regulations of Father Visitor Juan Almonacir (undated 1681-1684):

I order that every Father on the Sonora Mission not to discuss Ours or our affairs with any layman. Although I know that doing this is already against the rule, still I can see that it is not being kept in many areas. Hence, since it is already a rule, I feel much more obliged to reiterate the regulation.

The Precepts of Father Provincial A. Xardon 03 February 1710:

On the occasion of sending Your Reverence the commission as Visitor of the Province of Sonora following the death of Father Nicolas de Villafane, I cannot omit manifesting to your Reverence the actual concern and grief that I have been caused, and the care that has been added to my ordinary duties, by the continual complaints and saddening reports that come form there about the tasteless and disgusting conduct of Ours among themselves and with the laity.

I do not know how a person can be an obedient subject unless he has at least a little love for his Holy Mother The Society and does not allow the fame she has always enjoyed to be tarnished by his own fault and carelessness. How can anyone allow her (the Society of Jesus) reputation to diminish which so many of our elders have gained by their great labors and vigilance? I have great confidence in Our Lord that your Reverence's watchfulness, caution, and zeal will serve to remedy the many evils which have been experienced and to prevent others which can reasonably be feared...................

2. I advise you secondly to shun all possible familiarities with the laity. Thus, we will avoid anyone knowing our faults or the contentions which might arise among Ours. I know that in the Province, there is a notable laxity in this so that religious charity, that precious and esteemed jewel in the Society, is shattered so sordidly in this manner.

Regulations Compiled By Father Alonso de Arrivillaga 15 September 1715:

1. Although Rule 21 orders that Ours will not communicate to laymen anything that redounds to the discredit of Our Missionaries, on the whole it has seemed to me best to press the execution of this rule with full vigor because of the grave failures and improprieties that have been witnessed in this particular matter, especially among the inhabitants of this province who so very easy calumniate us with lies and false testimony. Thus I add that the rule is to be observed and that under no pretext shall anyone inquire into the faults of Ours, if anyone begins to speak this way, the door is to be shut on him and the matter referred to the Superior.

9. Inasmuch as I have noticed that some have a facility in failing to tell the truth, which is a despicable fault even in laymen, and that others have a facility to talk about Ours to their serious detriment and loss of reputation, I will say no more about this here than to remind them of the serious obligation they have to observe in this matter, I.E. the law of God.........

16. It is very important to observe that what is commanded by precept from Rome, especially that no one, particularly missionaries, dare write letters or reports to the Viceroys, Audencias, Governors, etc. The Superiors will be responsible to see that no one who acts to the contrary will escape punishment.

17. In the matter of writing and keeping letters many serious improprieties have been observed. Since, we as mortals, the written word remains, letters can serve as the father of rumors and the seedbed of discord. Wherefore I beseech you in the busom of Jesus Christ, that whoever has any such letters will hereupon burn them (as some others have already done). In the future, the Fathers should take a careful look at what they are writing because LITTERA SCRIPTA MANET and they can break charity apart in various ways which is something we should take much to heart in our Society which is after all a Society of love.

Father Provincial Joseph de Arjo to Father Juan de Guendulain (1723):

34. Usually these failures in charity stem from too great a familiarity with the laymen...............Then they compel them to disclose their weaknesses and the faults of their brothers so that the laymen have heard about them..........................................

35. On the contrary, there are some missionaries who write and speak arrogantly about laymens' scandals.................................

36. Some missionaries, and very zealous ones at that, have complained that their letters which were destined for superiors have been maliciously detained. I am not persuaded that this is the case, but, nevertheless, it is fitting to remind all that this is a serious and privileged matter in the Society. Moreover, let the superiors dispatch such letters promptly and securely.

That is not even every one, but enough to understand that when Jesuit Missionaries didn't feel like doing so, they would not follow rules, regulations, or precepts they didn't want to. Even if it meant committing the sin of breaking their vows of disobedience.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

More for you to consider, concerning Jesuit mining activities.

ARIVACA DISTRICT.

To the west and north of the last mentioned district lies the
Arivaca, on the easterly slope of the Sierra Yerde range.

The leading mines are the Con. Arizona, Albatross, Arkansas,
Cerro Colorado, Idaho, Mentor, Alpha, Oro, and a large number
of others. Several hundred other claims have been located, the
value of which cannot be determined without development.
Some of the older of these mines have been worked under the
rule of the Jesuits many generations back.

<ARIZONA THE WONDERFUL COUNTRY. Tucson its Metropolis. BY C. M. K. PAULISON. TUCSON, A. T. :
PRINTED AT THE OFFICE OF THE ARIZONA STAR 1881.>

Jesuits were very concerned about making PROFITS. Mining is only one of many successful ventures these intrepid missionaries attempted. Admittedly this letter is from the French colonies in America, but it is the same Jesuit Order as those working in Spanish and Portuguese America.

3] A Letter Missive in regard to the Conversion

and Baptism of the Grand Sagamore of new

France, who was, before the arrival of

the French, its chief and sovereign.

Sir and Brother, I did not wish the ship to depart without giving you some news of this country which I believe will be acceptable, as I know that you are a good Catholic. The Grand Sagamore, whom we call in our language Grand Captain of the Savages, and chief of all, was baptized on last saint John the Baptist's day, [4] with his wife, children, and children's children, to the number of twenty; with as much enthusiasm, fervor, and zeal for Religion as would have been evinced by a person who had been instructed in it for three or four years. He promises to have the others baptized, or else make war upon them. Monsieur de Poutrincourt and his son acted as sponsors for them in the name of the King, and of Monseigneur the Dauphin. We have already made this good beginning, which I believe will become still better hereafter. As to the country, I have never seen anything so beautiful, better, or more fertile; and I can say to you, truly and honestly, that if I had three or four Laborers with me now, and [5] the means of supporting them for one year, and some wheat to sow in the ground tilled by their labor alone, I should expect to have a yearly trade in Beaver and other Skins amounting to seven or eight thousand livres, with the [page 131] surplus which would remain to me after their support. am very sorry that did not know before my departure what know now; if had, should have left no stone unturned to bring with me two or three farmers, and two hogsheads of wheat, which is a mere trifle. assure you it is delightful to engage in trade over here and to make such handsome profits. If you wish to take a hand in it, let me know your intentions by the bearer, who desires to return and traffic here in pursuance of what he has seen. [6] shall say no more, except to pray God to give you, Sir and Brother, a long life and perfect health. From Port Royal, New France, this 28th of, June, 1610.

Your very affectlonate Brother and servant,

BERTRAND.
SOURCE: Reprinted from Première Mission des Jésuites

au Canada, by Auguste Carayon, S. J. Paris: L'Écureux,

1864.
FIRST MISSION OF THE JESUITS

IN CANADA.* 26

Delightful to engage in trade and make such HANDSOME PROFITS! What about that "vow of poverty"? As Gollum has posted, these obstacles were easily overcome.

Now we might think this to be a singular occurrence, that surely no other Jesuits were so interested in making profits, when they have those troublesome personal vows of poverty. So are you surprised to learn that the trading continued, even after being reprimanded? Here is another extract from one of the Jesuit missionaries serving in French America

Now here is what I can write about it, with the same sincerity with which I would some day render an account to God of all my actions. Peltry is not only the best thing and the easiest to make use of in this country, but it is also the coin of the greatest value. And the best of it is that, after it has been used as a covering, it is found to be ready-made gold and silver. You know in France how much consideration is given the style of a gown. Here all there is to do is to cut it out of a Beaver skin, and the Savage woman straightway sews it to her little child with a Moose tendon, with admirable promptness. Whoever wishes to pay in this coin for the goods he buys here, saves thereby the twenty-five per cent that the market price gives them over that in France for the risk they run upon the sea. The day-laborers also would rather receive the wages for their work in this money than in any other. And certainly it seems that commutative justice allows [page 173] that, if what comes [176] to us from France is dearer for having floated over the sea, what we have here is worth something for having been chased in the woods and over the snow, and for being the wealth of the Country; especially as those who are paid with this coin always find therein their reckoning and something more. It is for this reason that the Gentlemen of the Company permit to a -reasonable extent this practice to every one, and do not care whether these skins are used for trade or for protection from the cold,—provided that, in the end, they come back to their storehouse, and do not cross the seas except in their own Ships. In consequence of this, if occasionally one of them gets into our hands, we do not scruple to use it in the way of a purchase, any more than we would as a covering for the little Savages who cause us expense,—or to make for ourselves shoes from the skins of Moose, that we may walk upon our snowshoes, for which the common ones are of no use whatever, because they are so hard. Such is here the custom of both the French and the Barbarians. We send also some old Elk skins to our Fathers who are among the Hurons, and some Porcelain, [177] when we have any; it is the best part of their money, and with it they pay for their frugal provisions of Indian corn and smoked fish, as also for the materials and making of their bark Palaces. This, in truth, is all the profit we derive here from Peltries and other rare things of the Country,—all the use that we make of them. If it is dispassionately believed that there is some kind of traffic, or even if Your Reverence deems it best to drop all this, in order not to offend any one, we are all ready to give it up entirely. I say all, meaning as many of [page 175] us as are here,—and, if I dare to build hopes upon the goodness of our Lord, those who come after us will keep the same rule. What blindness would it be for us to come here to disobey our Superiors, or to scandalize those for whom we would willingly have sacrificed our lives! But if, on the contrary, you write us that all this is according to God, without semblance of traffic,—although a few slanderers, about whom we should not trouble ourselves, may stir up their passions at it, and turn it into poison,—we shall not fail to go on, after [178] having entreated these same lugubrious and irritable natures to believe that, if it pleases them to make us give up this innocent practice, they must open their own coffers to assist us in these distant Countries, after they have, through caprice, cut off a part of what was necessary to us. However carefully we have been able to manage things up to the present time, the last letters from that one of our Fathers who handles our income or our charitable gifts over there, and who sends us our supplies, indicate that without a little miracle he experienced lately in the assistance of saint Joseph, he would not have been able to furnish us anything this year. Now how would it be if we had to buy the remainder here, and send to him its items increased by a third or a fourth? Besides, if there is any charity in the world, no one should envy our little Seminary children because we cover them with stuffs which originate among them, and which last longer, especially upon their rather uneasy shoulders, and which protect them better from the cold than anything else. Nor should we be blamed for using [179] the money of the Country to save something for the benefit of these poor abandoned creatures; to [page 177] give them covering and food while they are willing to be instructed and desirous of becoming Christians, if they are not so already; and to have something with which to bury them, when they come to die. If France were reduced to such a condition that money was not in circulation, one would be obliged in commerce to use the articles and commodities themselves, trading one for the other; or even if there were any profit in doing this beyond the mere necessity, and if such were the custom, could any one find it wrong that, no matter what profession we make of poverty, we should follow the way of others, and when some objects of value should become ours, whether by purchase or donation,—either in exchange, or as a pure gift,—we should make use of them according to circumstances? We have no greater attractions for these poor people than their hope of getting from us some material assistance, and they never cease asking us for it. To refuse them is to estrange them. If we always give to them without taking anything in return, we [180] shall soon be at the end of our string; and yet, if we take away from them the liberty of asking, they will never become civilized. What remains then? To tell them to apply to those who have more to give than we? That will hardly help us, or render them more familiar with us. Shall we receive in order to give to those who would furnish us with something to satisfy them? This would be making us their Agents. But who has ever imagined that it is trafficking to give and take according to the necessity of the ordinary occurrences of human life? inasmuch as what you get in one place will exceed the value [page 179] of what you have given for it in another place. This is what I had to say on this point, yielding after all, as I have already declared, to what obedience shall deem proper or what shall be considered most edifying. For to consent to answer those who slander us, as if we were secretly making some other use of these skins and sending them to France, this would be making ourselves ridiculous. It is just as well to leave them something to say; and if they find ears ready to listen to these absurdities, I would be culpable [181] in expecting to find them open to the truth. What then? Shall men who have given up greater worldly blessings than they could hope for in the imaginations of these slanderers, finally decide to exchange France for Canada, to go there for the sake of two or three Beaver skins, and to trade them off unknown to their Superiors,—that is to say, at the expense of their consciences and of the loyalty they owe to him, to imitate whom they have so subjugated themselves that they cannot freely dispose of even a pin?

<CHAPTER IX. ANSWERS TO SOME PROPOSITIONS SUBMITTED TO ME FROM FRANCE.LE JEUNE'S RELATION, 1636 Paris: SEBASTIEN CRAMOISY, 1637>

I will close this post here as it is already very long.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Now if our Jesuits were NOT involved in mines and mining, we ought not expect that any Jesuit would ever have been sent out to FIND mines right? Then consider this:

Monsieur de Bienville, who has penetrated the farthest of all, has told me that the whole country is flooded in the months of [Page 155] march and april; that there were small eminences among the Natchitoch that were quite populous, and that corn grew thereon to the height of one’s shoulder. At the end of march, Monsieur de St. Denis is to go as Far as the Kadodakio; and instead of going toward the Senis, whither The Assassins of Monsieur de la Salle had fled, He is to go To the left, and push on as far as the Kiouahau, the most remote tribe that we know of, where it is hoped that mines will be found. He is to return here at the end of this month; and, if he finds no silver mines, they have nothing less than what they Seek in the settlement of the Mississipi — which floods all the lands to a distance of more than 80 leagues from Its Mouth, with the exception of a few small Districts.

<Relation or Journal of the voyage of Father Gravier, of the Society of Jesus, in 1700, from the Country of the Illinois To the Mouth of the Mississipi River. Written to Father de Lamberville and Sent from Fort Mississipi, 17 Leagues from its discharge into the Mexican Gulf or sea, on The 16th of February, 1701.>

Father Gravier SJ reported on his finds, including his proving that the reported iron mine was not an iron deposit.

Now, to resume our journey. We started on the 16th of October from the Mouth of the Ouabachi, in very fine weather; and we found the Mississipi less rapid than above Ouabachi. As we had a great quantity of meat, we hastily dried a portion of the best of it and the great heat compelled us to throw away the remainder. We saw so great a number of [Page 109] wood-pigeons that the sky was quite hidden by them. We traveled all day in a South-Southeasterly direction; and 5 leagues below Ouabachi, On the South side, we found lofty Sand-cliffs, where an iron mine is said to exist. The pretended scales of iron attached to the Stones are not what they are believed to be, and what I was told. They are nothing but veins of earth, hard and apparently petrified, which have in truth the Color of Iron, but have no weight and break easily. I took a piece of it, in order to show that, if there be an iron mine there, one cannot judge of it by that earth.

<ibid>

This was not the only discovery of Father Gravier SJ, he also found a very rich lead mine

On the 10th day, after proceeding a league, we discovered the River Miaramigoua, where the very rich lead mine is situated, 12 or 13 leagues from Its mouth. The ore from this mine yields 3 fourths metal.

<ibid>

Father Gravier SJ also mentions the mines he was seeking, but had not yet been found;

I know not what the Court will decide with reference to the Mississipi, if no silver mines be found there; For they seek not lands to cultivate. There are but few districts, to a distance of 80 leagues from here, that are not flooded by the great overflow of the Mississipi. The mines that have been sought for have not yet been found; but little heed is paid to the lead mines, which are very plentiful toward The Ilinois country, and higher up the Mississipi toward the Scioux.

<ibid>

More to come...
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

More authority pointing to Jesuit mining activity

Arizona and Sonora The reports of the immense mineral wealth of the new country, made by the Jesuits, induced a rapid settlement.

San Xavier del Bac is still in existence. It is a mission church of great size and beauty, magnificently ornamented within ; forty thousand dollars in solid silver served to adorn the altar.

Such is the history of the mine, which I intended to re- late to you with details, because within a short space of time it is called upon to rank among mines of the first class. Even now, in the neighborhood, by the abundance and richness of its ores, the facilities for extraction and reduction, and the conveniences of the locality, it is con-sidered one of the best in Arizona. Its importance would
be greatly increased if a project in which rich capitalists of the East are actively engaged is put in execution, which is to build a railroad between Guaymas and El Paso, in
Texas, which would connect with the Pacific Railroad. This road, following the ridge of the Sierra de Santa Cruz, would run at a distance of only ten miles from Mr. Mow-
ry's mine.

The mine which I have just described is not the only one to be found in that part of Arizona. The Santa Cruz Sierra, already renowned since the days of the Jesuits, who had opened in that locality the Compadre and French Mines, has lately given evidences of new richness.

Santa Rita Mining Company. The Sierra de la San- ta Rita, as that of the Santa Cruz, incloses rich deposits of precious ores. The Cazada, Florida, and Salero Mines are united in one company, under the above title. The last one was known a long while ago, and was worked by the Jesuits.

Arizona Land and Mining Company. This mine is situated north of the Rancho of Sopori. This company
owns a large tract of land, of thirty-two leagues square, on which is situated the old silver mine of San Xavier, which was worked during the time of the Jesuits, and which appears exceedingly rich ;

<ARIZONA AND SONORA: THE GEOGRAPHY, HISTORY, AND RESOURCES OF THE SILVER REGION OF NORTH AMERICA. BY SYLVESTER MOWRY, OF ARIZONA, GRADUATE OF THE U. S. MILITARY ACADEMY AT WEST POINT, LATE LIEUTENANT THIRD ARTILLERY, U. S. A., CORRESPONDING MEMBER OF THE AMERICAN INSTITUTE, LATE
U. S. BOUNDARY COMMISSIONER, ETC., ETC., ETC. NEW YORK: HARPER & BROTHERS, PUBLISHERS,
FRANKLIN SQUARE. 1864. >

I will let our readers digest this...
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[HOLA amigos,

Now if our Jesuits were NOT involved in mines and mining, we ought not expect that any Jesuit would ever have been sent out to FIND mines right? Then consider this:


Quote
Monsieur de Bienville, who has penetrated the farthest of all, has told me that the whole country is flooded in the months of [Page 155] march and april; that there were small eminences among the Natchitoch that were quite populous, and that corn grew thereon to the height of one’s shoulder. At the end of march, Monsieur de St. Denis is to go as Far as the Kadodakio; and instead of going toward the Senis, whither The Assassins of Monsieur de la Salle had fled, He is to go To the left, and push on as far as the Kiouahau, the most remote tribe that we know of, where it is hoped that mines will be found. He is to return here at the end of this month; and, if he finds no silver mines, they have nothing less than what they Seek in the settlement of the Mississipi — which floods all the lands to a distance of more than 80 leagues from Its Mouth, with the exception of a few small Districts.
<Relation or Journal of the voyage of Father Gravier, of the Society of Jesus, in 1700, from the Country of the Illinois To the Mouth of the Mississipi River. Written to Father de Lamberville and Sent from Fort Mississipi, 17 Leagues from its discharge into the Mexican Gulf or sea, on The 16th of February, 1701.>

Father Gravier SJ reported on his finds, including his proving that the reported iron mine was not an iron deposit.

Quote
Now, to resume our journey. We started on the 16th of October from the Mouth of the Ouabachi, in very fine weather; and we found the Mississipi less rapid than above Ouabachi. As we had a great quantity of meat, we hastily dried a portion of the best of it and the great heat compelled us to throw away the remainder. We saw so great a number of [Page 109] wood-pigeons that the sky was quite hidden by them. We traveled all day in a South-Southeasterly direction; and 5 leagues below Ouabachi, On the South side, we found lofty Sand-cliffs, where an iron mine is said to exist. The pretended scales of iron attached to the Stones are not what they are believed to be, and what I was told. They are nothing but veins of earth, hard and apparently petrified, which have in truth the Color of Iron, but have no weight and break easily. I took a piece of it, in order to show that, if there be an iron mine there, one cannot judge of it by that earth.
<ibid>

This was not the only discovery of Father Gravier SJ, he also found a very rich lead mine

Quote
On the 10th day, after proceeding a league, we discovered the River Miaramigoua, where the very rich lead mine is situated, 12 or 13 leagues from Its mouth. The ore from this mine yields 3 fourths metal.
<ibid>

Father Gravier SJ also mentions the mines he was seeking, but had not yet been found;

Quote
I know not what the Court will decide with reference to the Mississipi, if no silver mines be found there; For they seek not lands to cultivate. There are but few districts, to a distance of 80 leagues from here, that are not flooded by the great overflow of the Mississipi. The mines that have been sought for have not yet been found; but little heed is paid to the lead mines, which are very plentiful toward The Ilinois country, and higher up the Mississipi toward the Scioux.
<ibid>

More to come...
Oroblanco]
_______________________________

Surely you can see what a stretch this is in trying to make your point. Jesuits were often the first to explore a region. Their reports of finding precious metals were common. To extrapolate that into their opening and working a mine(s) is unwarranted by the facts.

In all of the above, you have built an extremely weak case for your argument. It is all conjecture and supposition. The Jesuits were not accused nor expelled from the New World for mining or hoarding treasures. They were expelled for amassing too much power and interfering with the desires of the miners and settlers. They, in turn, were filing complaints that reached all the way to the king. It was pure politics that brought the Jesuits down.

If a young woman says: "Sex is a wonderful act between two people, the results of which can end up in her becoming pregnant. Both people can experience intense pleasure and satisfaction". Is it possible that she has never had sex, but can still be knowledgeable about it? Is it possible that the Jesuits can be aware of gold and silver ore/mines, without being involved in the mining?

Knowledge does not always equal participation.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

First, I can find no reference that mining was illegal before the Precept of 1710 (it was previously 1747). The only precept before that that mining may have fallen under would have been the precept against money makingf ventures.............buuuuuuut......... if they were mining for the purpose of church adornment, or sending to Rome, they would not have been in it for the money, and thence, okay!

Also, we have seen that Frontier Jesuits only followed the rules, regulations, and precepts when it suited them. We have the words of both Father Provincials and Father Visitors that some of the Priests (Ours) had a penchant for lying.

Rule #4. No one will work mines. This includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly. The intention of the precept is to include all forms of knowledge or interpretations that could even fall within the same precept.

Next, we come to Father Joseph Och SJ once again. In his book "Missionary in Sonora; the travel reports of Joseph Och, S.J., 1755-1767":

After this the dishes were ready for use in cookery. .... many were worth more than a ducat because of the thousands of gold scales found mixed in with the clay. This gold could not have been collected through washing without an expenditure of labor in excess of the cost. It was true gold as I proved with a bit of quicksilver with which it immediately formed an amalgam....

Okay Joe. There ya go! If no Jesuit was supposed to show knowledge of mining (either direct or indirect) under Ecclesiastical Precept, and to do so would mean committing teh SIN of breaking his Vow of Obedience. Why then, is Father Och SJ carrying mercury? Mercury would have had no use in 1755 (when that happened) other than in amalgamating precious metals! That is DISPLAYING a very intimate knowledge of mining and/or refining (which is a part of mining). So......maybe the naysayers could enlighten us as to why Father Och SJ was carrying mercury? I guess they'll say he was delivering it to a secular at a mine. Okay, then why did he display the knowledge of how to use it in regards to mining by verifying the gold scale in the plates was actually gold by amalgamating it with some quicksilver (mercury)?

Best-Mike

 

[rochha]

Joe wrote:

“Is it possible that the Jesuits can be aware of gold and silver ore/mines, without being involved in the mining? “

With everything that Mike and Roy have posted concerning this issue, is it possible they did engage of mining?

If I was on a jury and this topic was before us in court, I would have to say there is reasonable doubt of their innocence in mining activities.

rochha

 

[cactusjumper]

Charlie & Mike,

I don't believe that no Jesuit ever engaged in mining or broke their vows. In fact, I am sure that happened. Because I believe that to be the case, does not mean I will accept every piece of questionable "evidence" that you quote.

I have read all of the "proof" you have both quoted. Each and every time it can be read to come down on either side of the debate. You choose to always see it as a smoking gun, I see it as something less. That does not mean that your assumptions are untrue, only that there is reasonable doubt.

Charlie,

You would never be on such a jury. Pre-conceived notions of guilt and long held biases would have you disqualified from the start.

No need to get upset because not everyone agrees that your "evidence" proves either Jesuit treasure or mining. You seem to believe because you want to believe. I used to believe, as Charlie well knows. I want to believe still, but history is stacked against it. Change that history and I will be the first to applaud.

Only an idiot would believe that the Jesuits, all, had no knowledge of mining. You may think that applies to me, but they taught mining. Stupid, illogical rules are foisted upon us all the time. How does one erase knowledge once they have acquired it?

Take care,

Joe

 

[rochha]

I believe the thrust of this thread is to show reasonable doubt and the possibility of Jesuit treasure being real. Reasonable Doubt = Possibility. That can be taken both ways, for or against.

Joe wrote:

“ You would never be on such a jury. Pre-conceived notions of guilt and long held biases would have you disqualified from the start. “

I meant that as me being un biased and un pre-conceived. There is enough examples here showing there is a possibility they engaged in mining and broke their vows. Ranging from how they could have communicated with each other covertly to there being legends where ever they were about mines being worked in the areas they were in. I can see how this alone should not carry a lot of weight if it was just limited to one of their locations. But there seems to be Legends wherever they went about their involvement in mining.

“ No need to get upset because not everyone agrees that your "evidence" proves either Jesuit treasure or mining “

I’m not upset, what made you think I was? Did I tell you Joe that I am upset with you because of what you believe? Please show me where I said that about anybody not believing in Jesuit mining activities that I was upset with them. Or are you upset with me because of the way I connect the dots?

“ I want to believe still, but history is stacked against it. Change that history and I will be the first to applaud. “

I don’t think any one piece of evidence would ever do that, but stack all these possibilities on top of each other and I think it clearly shows there is a distinct possibility of their involvement in mining in the areas they inhabited.

“ does not mean I will accept every piece of questionable "evidence" that you quote “

Nobody said you had too.

“ I don't believe that no Jesuit ever engaged in mining or broke their vows. In fact, I am sure that happened “

This would imply, at least to me that you believed some of what was posted about their illegal involvement in mining. What was it that made you make that last statement?

Lamar,

If anything I have said about Jesuit involvement in illegal mining is considered as anti catholic to you that was never my intent. If anyone here has taken it that way you have my apologies.

Rochha