JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[gollum]

Actually, I have to add one more thing to SWR> I can't stop laughing. Now, you are making me think seriously that you don't care a bit about the debate at hand. Only in how much anger you can elicit with outrageous comments. HAHAHA With statements like yours, I HONESTLY don't know whether to take you seriously or not. Methinks you are poking fun.

Best-Mike

 

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[rochha]

“ What if the letter had real content that was " sprinkled " with code, and one would have to read more than 1 letter to get the complete code. That way the letter would appear normal, and if one had the code ( which I doubt a organization like the Jesuits would EVER allow that to happen, and if it happened they would simply change the code ) it would take more than just a single letter to decipher. Also, since no one has the complete code ( except maybe a few of the modern day Jesuits ) today it would lead credence to just how good it truly is....Maybe the one deciphering the code was not the intended reader, but a clerk or scribe ?? "

I feel it ( document ) would look on the surface that it was bonfide subject matter content of some type. Within that document would be subtle differences with certain letters to draw your attention to certain words. Those words would tell you what you needed to know utilizing an alphabet code of some type.

Lets say a ship was returning to Spain that had cargo that came from the Pimera Alta Missions. Lets go on to say that there are pre determined numbers for gold or silver. Using an alphabet code they could let a fellow member who worked in the receiving area or one who had something to do with cargo unloading who was privy to the manifest or document that something hidden ( gold or silver ) was on board for them to retrieve covertly with out the King of Spain’s people finding out.

"#17: Inasmuch as possible Ours will avoid writing letters to Ours complaining about the laity. If a letter has to be written, let it be so done that, even if lost or opened, the person about whom the letter was written could not understand it. The same caution is to be observed when writing the Provincial about THINGS THAT MUST BE DEALT WITH SECRETLY BECAUSE EXPERIENCE HAS SHOWN THE CONTRARY PRACTICE CREATES GRAVE INCONVENIENCES”

I believe this creates the possibility that they had a way of communicating covertly with one and other thru letters, documents, manifest’s and what not.

“ I see you don't understand the meaning of "code." Code doesn't have to mean anything as fancy as the Beal Code. It could be as simple as using words and phrases known only to two parties. It could be as simple as calling a fork a spoon. “

Very well put!

“ So we are to believe that the Jesuits were running a mining operation under the noses of the military and the local mine owners. “

I believe that is a distinct possibility; the remoteness of that area could very well have made it easy for that to take place. There could have been certain mines that could easily have been worked without attracting the attention of the military and the local mine owners.

Interesting cypher you have there Mike

Rochha

 

[Crow]

Hello All

Getting back to some comments about the pure moral character of the Jesuits. It would be very naive to think any organization does not individuals involved in self interest, religious or not. What the church portrays as a squeaky clean image of themselves is not what was happening in reality and that can be seen today.

Church back then had a lot of power and was central to everyday life. History shows abuses of power across the new world by the clergy. I can show you an example of the Church not just the Jesuits were abusing power.

If you look in the 1615 manuscript Guaman Poma there is a chapter Abuses of Authority Economic Corruption and Moral depravity: Pages 602-619 it tells of parish priests that were virtual lords in their own realms. There are forced marriages, gambling and priests having children, that were in control the flow of money collected from the citizens of the parishes, miners etc...

The Vatican turned a blind eye to those abuses because the money was flowing in gold and silver from thousands of parishes both good and bad. None of these abuses were rained in until the Jesuits were expelled from the new world. What happened to the Jesuits was a warning to the orders of the church.

If all this was happening Peru then it would be very naive to think it was not happening in Northern Mexico either.

Crow

 

[rochha]

" If all this was happening Peru then it would be very naive to think it was not happening in Northern Mexico either. "

How true!

Rochha

 

[pegleglooker]

Hey Mike,
I now have a name for my new band " Flaming Ineptitude "...... ROFL !!!!!

PLL

 

[cactusjumper]

Charlie,

"I believe that is a distinct possibility; the remoteness of that area could very well have made it easy for that to take place. There could have been certain mines that could easily have been worked without attracting the attention of the military and the local mine owners."


"At around the same time, Jesuits arrived in San Luis to evangelize the local population. Legend has it that they brought the priests silver that they mined near the military outpost in an area know today as Santa Brígida (Saint Brigit in English). The mineral wealth was at the surface and the indigenous inhabitants had a very simple operation to extract it. The Jesuits began to mine the area using existing European techniques and continued to do so until 1767 when they were expelled from all the Spanish Realm."

Can't help but wonder how you extracted "remoteness" out of the quotation above.

"In the middle of the Sixteenth Century, after the discovery of silver in Zacatecas, a leg of the Camino Real passed through the valley below and to the north through the present day city of San Luis de la Paz. To protect the wagon trains moving north and south, the army established an outpost called Palmar de Vega, the first settlement of Pozos."

It was not so remote that it did not warrant a road and military outpost to protect it. The Spanish were always looking for gold and silver lodes.......everywhere they set foot. Palmar de Vega would have been no different. Any mine that was being worked near the surface, and near the outpost would not have remained hidden. You believe they worked it for two hundred years in secret?

Beth,

I think Pozos is a bust as evidence for Jesuit mining. I am still interested in seeing the other sites you mentioned. Remember, I was once a firm believer in Jesuit treasure and mining.

Take care,

Joe

 

[rochha]

Joe,

Actually I was referring to the Arivaca, Ruby, Tumacacori area. The mid to Northern part of Pimera Alata. The area is very remote, a mine(s) could easily be worked without attracting any attention. I was not referring to the Santa Brígida area you were talking about...........my bad!

Rochha

 

[cactusjumper]

Charlie,

I seeeeee!

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
As far as a JESUIT CODE goes, there was little need as many of their communications were written in LATIN, which most lay persons could not (and cannot today) read.

As this thread is focused on Jesuit treasures, and whether they are real history or simply made up by treasure writers, I will wait before addressing the issue of MINING, but this caught my eye,

Cactusjumper wrote

Beth,

"The Jesuits started their own operations, and continued until 1767 - that's the year they were expelled."

That's a very good story, from a town that is coming back from near extinction. They have picked a great hook for tourism, controversy.

I realize this is addressed to Beth and without trying to "take over" that discussion, I find it curious that you would think that this kind of "controversy" would be some kind of windfall/benefit to the tourism industry. The whole "controversy" exists only between the Jesuit apologists and treasure hunters - few people in the "outside world" are even aware that there IS any such controversy.
I will go one step further - this whole issue seems to be a controversy only in modern times, for most OLDER sources do not question whether the Jesuits were mining or if they had church treasures in their possession which they were entrusted to keep SAFE, which would in cases of emergency, mean HIDING IT. I have already posted one such example, written BY a Jesuit TO a Jesuit, and a Jesuit whom was "run out" of that territory for some time (Keller) so it is not likely that HE ever returned for it; the Franciscans who replaced the Jesuits found the missions practically bare of any kind of valuable gold or silver. I do not know the motives behind the modern denials of any and all Jesuit ownership or perhaps to be more correct, stewardship of treasures (again leaving mining out for that thread) but if necessary we can prove that the Jesuits were entrusted with the payrolls of the soldiers whom were assigned to the various missions and mission properties; that the Jesuit priests themselves may not have been intimately involved in handling such valuables rather their LAY BROTHERS (whom were still Jesuits) were the men responsible, and that they fairly often HID those same valuables (which they may or may not have actually held legal ownership of) in emergencies. This is not limited to Jesuits either, the Franciscans were also entrusted with monies and valuables and also hid them during emergencies, resulting in the LOSS of some of these valuables.

What I see instead appears to be a rather strange behavior on the part of some persons, who react as if there is some crime in the Jesuits having had possession of church and/or military and/or municipal valuables, along with the proceeds of their own industries (ranching, farming, and yes mining) when surely the statute of limitations has LONG since elapsed; no one can be "convicted" as there is no crime to prosecute.

We can even turn to outside sources for a glimpse of just how rich those colonial missions were, in the (scant) records of the pirates and privateers who raided them. Yet we are supposed to believe that all was utter poverty in all of the Jesuit missions, so long as they were "in business".

<Interior of a Jesuit mission in Bolivia>

The Jesuit missions were financially very successful, so much so as to lead to friction with the 'lay people' they were in direct competition with. Are we to believe that financially successful missions, with vast herds of cattle, sheep, etc let alone any mining interests or tithe incomes, would NOT have had respectable amounts of money? Then recall that money in colonial times was usually REAL money - silver and gold.
Oroblanco

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Joe,

I realize that you may think that is just for tourist attraction value, but, it is supported by many other publications. Besides, what extra value would you get out of it, historical areas are historical areas.

I suspect that you are not looking for examples as much as you are looking for evidence for yourself, as are others, since the common idea is that, if its on the internet it is no better than garbage - when, in fact, there is many, many universities with information on line - who have no agenda, other than to give proof of the facts of a historical content.

Just to show you some of what I have - I hope you can read other languages, because the expelling of Jesuits edict wasn't written in English.

For you:

 

[gollum]

Okay,

Since I see that some are chomping at the bit to get the next part started, lets open the floodgates!

I WANT TO REPEAT ONE THING HERE: Please, no Anti_Catholic Flaming! No quotes about Jesuit Assassins or the like. If you are quoting something, please reference it! If it is an opinion, PLEASE SAY SO!

About as far as I'm willing to go on the Jesuit Conspiracy Trail is the Monita Secreta Societatis Iesu. I have read enough evidence on both sides of the case (of its authenticity) that I am willing to say it is more likely than not to be authentic. If you don't know what it is, please Google it.

Previously, it has been stated that the Jesuit Precept against mining or having any knowledge (direct or indirect) was first put to paper in 1747, but I have found that to be inaccurate. Found in a random mission was a Precept from Father Provincial Francisco de Arteaga (1699-1702). This would fall right in line with the Jesuit Agreement with King Charles III to have free reign over Northern New Spain with a restriction against Mining. It reads:

No one will possess knowledge about mining either directly or indirectly; even if his intention is to have a general knowledge about everything, such knowledge would fall under this precept.

This precept was again restated in the precepts of Father Provincial Andres Javier Garcia (25 June 1747). It reads:

No one will work mines. This includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining either directly or indirectly. The intention of the precept is to include all forms of knowledge or interpretations that could even fall within the same precept.

So, our FIRST official NO MINING Regulation was in 1699. Since this WAS an Ecclesiastical Precept, for a Jesuit Priest to mine OR HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF MINING (at least, I believe, displaying any knowledge of mining) would have been a sin! It would have meant breaking his vow of OBEDIENCE. Above all the vows a Jesuit is required to take, the Vow of Obedience is the most important. It was singularly mentioned by none other than Saint Francis Xavier when he penned his VERY FAMOUS: "Letter of Obedience" at Coimbra , Portugal on 26 March 1533. That letter became an ascetical classic, and was read MONTHLY IN ALL JESUIT HOUSES OF FORMATION. He states; "Of course, I wish you to be perfect in all spiritual gifts and adornments. But it is especially in the virtue of obedience, as you have heard from me on other occasions, that I am anxious to see you signalize yourselves." Probably the most important vow a Jesuit can take. Now, knowing how important the Vow of Obedience was (is) to a Jesuit, there can be NO WAY any Jesuit Priest would EVER break that vow, now would there? As a matter of fact, yes. It happened VERY REGULARLY. In my next post, I will show you several restatements of the precept against speaking about matters private to "Ours" (the Jesuit Order) that include statements about how that precept was being continually broken.

I'll continue with another quote from Father Charles W Polzer SJ regarding Jesuit Mining activities from his article in the Aug 1962 edition of Desert Magazine:

From archival sources, we know of only two instances in which Padres became involved in mining operations (these being in the Sierra Madre Mission Area). In both cases the men were severely reprimanded and removed.

I included the entire quote for the sake of honesty. While Father Polzer SJ admits that instances of mining occurred, he further states that both men were reprimanded and removed. While on one hand, it shows that the Order did not officially condone mining, it DOES show that some instances of it DID happen. Once again, for Father Polzer to actually admit that little tidbit is an astounding revelation (even if it is not completely honest)!

Now, lets get back to the subject of Jesuit Letter Cryptography. I put the basic precept out there to see the naysayers make fools of themselves (again). If they simply read the book by Father Charles W. Polzer SJ; "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain", they would find a follow-up precept to the one stated previously on the subject (I will restate it here again):

#17: Inasmuch as possible Ours will avoid writing letters to Ours complaining about the laity. If a letter has to be written, let it be so done that, even if lost or opened, the person about whom the letter was written could not understand it. The same caution is to be observed when writing the Provincial about THINGS THAT MUST BE DEALT WITH SECRETLY BECAUSE EXPERIENCE HAS SHOWN THE CONTRARY PRACTICE CREATES GRAVE INCONVENIENCES."

Now, foolish skeptics, READ WITH HORROR, as Father Alonso de Arrivillaga in 1715 states (nay, he PLEADS) not only mentions incriminating letters, but instructs the priests what to do with them. Read now,. and tremble in fear:

In the matter of writing and keeping letters many serious improprieties have been observed. Since, as we are mortals, the written word remains, letters can serve as the father of rumors and the seedbed of discord. Wherefore, I beseech you in the busom of Jesus Christ, THAT WHOEVER HAS SUCH LETTERS WILL HEREUPON BURN THEM (AS OTHERS HAVE ALREADY DONE). In the future, the Fathers should take a careful look at what they are writing because LITTERA SCRIPTA MANET and they can break charity apart in various ways which is something we should take very much to heart in our Society which is after all a society of love.

THAT WHOEVER HAS SUCH LETTERS WILL HEREUPON BURN THEM (AS OTHERS HAVE ALREADY DONE)​

LITTERA SCRIPTA MANET​

What does that mean my beautiful little snowflakes? NO FAIR GOOGLING! Okay, I'll tell. It means:

It is a part of a very old Latin Phrase "VOX AUDITA PERIT, LITTERA SCRIPTA MANET" translated as "The Spoken Word Perishes, The Written Word Remains"

NOW, is there anybody who doesn't understand why there are no or VERY FEW extant documents that speak of Jesuit Mining or any sort of Intrigues? ANYBODY?

No, it's very simple. We have one Ecclesiastical Precept that says "Whenever a letter has to be written about a sensitive subject, do it in code, and another that came later (this could only be because a lot of Priests were not encoding their letters, and even keeping them. This scared the living crap out of the Jesuit Leaders in Spain and Rome, so they issued another Ecclesiastical Precept that BESEECHES them to "burn any such letters (as others have already done)"

I'm done for the night. I'll let this sink iinto your heads for a bit.

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Mike,

Since I am Catholic - there won't be any anti-catholicism from me.


CJ,

I'm sorry, I missed answering part of your post. But first, I need a little more specific information on what priest you want to know about - Pozo (which means "well") is a name that is in many places. Care to narrow it down to a specific well (Pozo), please?


B

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Is there anything in your last post that in any way, beyond the two priests mentioned, hints at mining or treasure among the Jesuits? Where there is man, there are always broken rules. Do you find it strange that both priests were removed from their positions?

Is it your contention that the "letters" that are spoken of, in any way, proves your case? I have read a number of Father Polzer's books, including the "Rules and Precepts.....". There is no hint at Jesuit mining or treasure.

If you have truly researched Jesuit history, you would know that they had many enemies. The political intrigue and the jealousy that surrounded the order led to extreme paranoia. Your quote concerning letters seems to be warning against taking these enemies lightly. Constant vigilance was the order of the day.

In fact, all of that eventually caught up with the order, and was a primary cause of their expulsion. The Pope explains that fairly well in his Bull, as does the king in his expulsion order. Neither document mentions treasures, mining, the king being shorted his royal fifth or anything near that.

It was all about the roadblocks the Jesuits were putting between the natives, settlers and miners. They had complete control over their charges. They wrote many letters complaining about the abuses in the mines and the attempts, often successful, to capture and enslave the Indians into the mines.

I have read the accounts of Jesuits hiding the church vestments in times of eminent danger, but that was done with the help of their loyal natives. Any gold or silver that was in the missions at the time of the expulsion was fair game for the soldiers and the Indians as well. Mexico has a long and well documented history of this kind of corruption.

So far, you have provided no worthwhile facts to base your premise on. It's just a bunch of what if's and it looks like. The connections are nebulous, to say the least.

Other than that, I am enjoying the topic.

Take care,

Joe

 

[desertmoons]

Well, interesting thread. I personally think some missions were wealthy, others very poor.

There is proof of a more concrete source out there that at least some Jesuits were involved in owning mines. It took about 2 years of research but i am satisfied on that point. Now..Why do I post? Not to say "I know something you do not". But to simply say I support the assertion of some Jesuits being deeply involved in mining.

The way I reached this conclusion I will not post lest the evidence disappear plus I am not done using that resource.
Yes another "unfounded" assertion swr.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?<VERY long post, x-tra java alert>

HOLA amigos,

I do not know why anyone would expect us to find all sorts of Jesuit-written documents proving they were illegally mining in the Americas. Mike has shown us their "paranoia" about their secrets being discovered in their own letters. Why is it that virtually everywhere in the Americas where there are gold and silver mines, we have "legends" of Jesuit mines? In Brazil it is the Muribeca mines, in Bolivia it is the Sacambaya mines, in Mexico, Peru, Columbia, Canada etc we find these same types of stories of Jesuit mines. All invented by treasure writers, our Jesuit apologists denounce. There is a lot of smoke there amigos, and while not spelled out specifically in the edict of the king of Spain, the Jesuits successful business ventures and long history of disobedience do not help the Apologists case.

I am including here some extracts, for your entertainment.

"Such is the history of the mine, which I intended to relate to you with details, because within a short space of time it is called upon to rank among mines of the first class. Even now, in the neighborhood, by the abundance and richness of its ores, the facilities for extraction, and reduction, and the convenience of the locality, it is considered one of the best in Arizona. Its importance would be greatly increased if a project in which rich capitalists of the East are actively engaged, is put in execution, which is to build a railroad between Guaymas and El Paso, in Texas, which would connect with the Pacific Railroad. This road, following the ridge of the Sierra de Santa Cruz, would run at a distance of only ten miles from Mr. Mowry's mine.

The mine which I have just described is not the only one to be found in that part of Arizona. The Santa Cruz Sierra already renowed since the days of the Jesuits. who had opened in that locality the Compadre and French mines, has lately given evidence of new richness. Besides the two which I have just named, the Boundary, Empire, Eagle and St. Louis Mining Companies form a part of the Sierra."
"Santa Rita Mining Company;—the Sierra de la Santa Rita as that of the Santa Cruz, incloses rich deposits of precious ores. The Cazada, Florida and Salero Mines are united in one company, under the above title. The last one was known a long while ago, and was worked by the Jesuits".
"Arizona Land and Mining Company;—this mine is situated north of the Rancho of Sopori. This company owns a large tract of land, of thirty-two leagues square, on which is situated the old silver mine of San Xavier, which was worked during the time of the Jesuits, and which appears exceedingly rich; other veins, equally rich, are to be found in the center of the property, on the Sierra Tinaja. "

Clearly this must come from some treasure writer right? Wrong, it is from, <History of Arizona by THOMAS EDWIN FARISH, Arizona Historian.Volume II.Phoenix, Arizona,1915. pp 71-72, 74>
Surely this must be the only non-treasure-writer source for this kind of info right? Hmm.

The mining activity within Cananea has a lengthy history. The registry dates from 1760, when Jesuit missionaries discovered abundant deposits of gold and silver, resulting in the beginning of mining operations in Cobre Grande (The Great Copper mine). Mr. William Cornell Green was the founder and creative mind behind The Cananea Consolidated Copper Company.

http://www.gotosonora.com/cananea-son-mx.htm

Now our Apologists will say this is for "controversy" to "increase tourism" etc but why include such information, that the Jesuits' discovery is IN their registry, which ANY tourist could disprove with ease, if it were not in that registry? Hmm.

"In at least one documented case, the relationship between missionaries and miners in connection with food supply resulted in a singular activity on the part of the priests. Mining in Sonora was not limited entirely to lay Spaniards. The Jesuits of Matape mission also engaged in the extraction and refining of silver ores from deposits near Tecoripa, not far from San Miguel Arcangel. According to the rules of the Jesuit order, priests were forbidden to own, operate, or even acquire knowledge of mining. But apparently, ownership of the mines in question had been signed over to the mission by a Spanish miner in payment for debts he incurred for supplies obtained from the padres. Moreover, the priests claimed that the mines belonged to the College of San Jose' at Matape, not to the mission itself, and thus the superiors permitted continuation of the "forbidden" activity. During the late seventeenth century annual proceeds from the Tecoripa mines under church management ranged from three thousand to twelve thousand pesos, a substantial windfall for the college and the missionaries.

<pp 62, Sonora: its geographical personality
By Robert Cooper West, 1993>

West mentions "one documented case" and whenever such evidence IS found, our Apologists always say "this one incident" but if you start to add up these "one incidents" we get a different picture.

San Luis de la Paz, Mexico

In Mineral Wells, Indians were taught the European techniques of extraction and processing of metals. Tomaron a su cargo la mina de Santa Brigida y edificaron 3 colosales hornos cónicos; estos últimos aun existen. They took over the mine of Santa Brigida and 3 colossal conical furnaces were built, the latter still exist.

http://www.sanluisdelapaz.com/mexico/jesuitas

I suppose this is written for "controversy" so as to "increase tourism" too? The giant furnaces still stand, built by the "non-mining" Jesuits for anyone to see. Hmm again.

MINES AND MINING Mining is one of the oldest industries in Arizona As early as 1736 mining was conducted with considerable success by the Jesuit Fathers and many treasure laden ships carried cargoes of gold and silver hence to enrich the grandees of the court of Spain Pimieria Alta near the line of Sonora is the first authentic mining discovery recorded in what is now known as Arizona The ore which was discovered by a Yaqui Indian was in its virgin state Nuggets were found strewn over the ground weighing

Surely this MUST come from a treasure writer, or some "dying" town trying to attract more tourists through controversy right? Well not exactly, it is from Report on the internal commerce of the United States
By United States. Bureau of statistics (Treasury dept.), United States. Treasury Dept. Bureau 1890 pp92

We passed on from this to the old Pueblo on the head water of Sonoita for the purpose of hunting an old silver mine near there worked the Jesuits 1 0 years ago but failed to succeed Having wearied our in this fruitless search we turned down Sonoita creek and through tlie and heavily timbered bottom of that creek to the Calabazos and ibcnee Tubac We shall attempt this mine again

The fine old ruins of the mission of Tumacacori show this to have been an important point with the Spanish Jesuits who first opened these mines.

<Mining magazine: devoted to mines, mining operations, metallurgy & c, Volume 8, 1857>

I will let our readers digest this matter a moment, as I have yet more to add, but it is very long so will close here.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello again,

So as not to weary our poor readers overmuch, I have broken this into several posts. In my previous post, I neglected to mention Argentina. Among American treasure hunters Argentina rarely is discussed, but are we shocked to learn that here too, we have "legends" of Jesuit mines? For your entertainment, read on...
'

From all these circumstances it is evident that immediately after the conquest the Spanish Jesuits very properly availed themselves of the opportunity thus presented to them of discovering the secret of the Indian mineral treasures At the time of their settlement in the country one of the chief objects to subject the Indians to their religious system and protection and they not only succeeded in doing this but they large tracts of land in Misiones and other places for the support of the Indian people built towns churches and schools introduced a complete social system and thus gained noble and complete controul and the entire confidence the Indians from whom correct information of the position of the mineral treasures was obtained Thus they not free action and independence for themselves but they a great service to the natives improving their general and doubtless would have continued to advance the civilizing work to a high standard had the jealousy and their opponents given place to elements of a praiseworthy but the frequent demands for contingents of men resources to aid in the defense of the seaboard settlements their efforts and eventually the false representations made to the court of Spain by conspirators brought the ruin and final expulsion of the Jesuits in 1767

The small oratorio situated at Sarmiento 2 miles to the North East of Villa Argentina has a beautifully carved door and frame made out of the algarroba wood of the country and the lintel of the frame has the date of 21 May 1764 carved on it These dates are sufficient to prove that many places contiguous to the silver and gold mining districts of the mountains of Famatina were occupied at an early period The Jesuits would therefore be likely to have possessed important information of the mines from the Indians and it is well known that they devoted considerable attention to mining we should not therefore go far wrong in assuming that they possessed nearly all the richest mines ie those discovered at that time Two such mines were possessed and worked by the Jesuits somewhere in the mountains of Famatina and these mines in particular have become the subject of much interest and speculation for many years past not only in the Argentine Republic but in Chile and other parts and the excitement connected with the many expeditions which have been undertaken for the rediscovery of these mines has been excessive and has led to the expenditure of much time and money Copies of the old records of those treasure mines of the Jesuits exist but their ambiguity has rendered it impossible to fix the precise situation of the mines The documents referred to state that one of these mines contained a vein of native gold and the other a vein of native silver and they have always been known under the name of Chocoy It is also stated that they were comparatively close to one another and that both were secretly closed a little before the departure of the Jesuits. The gold mine was said to be closed with a large flat stone brought from a considerable distance by a number of Indian workmen who also placed it over the mouth of the pit leading to the mine and upon this stone a large cross was cut for ideniification.

From this it is clear that the Jesuits must have had an intention of returning to the mines on a future occasion. It is also stated that sixteen Indians could dance upon this stone at the same time It is a well established fact that the Jesuits wrote a description of their principal mines indicating their situation and nature and at their expulsion it is believed that these documents were taken to Spain. It is also stated that they were written in duplicate and one of them was placed in a bottle and secreted in the inner part of the walls of the Red House inhabited by the Jesuits In a valley near the Cerro Negro Province of La Rioja A part of this house was still standing when I visited the locality.

There is no evidence that mining progressed or even was the object of much attention during the interval which elapsed from the time of the expulsion of the Jesuits to the arrival of the Aragoneses or Lay Jesuits ie Juan Leita and Juan Echavarria The date of their advent in South America is said to be about the year 1777 or ten years after the expulsion but the general opinion is that it was about the year 1803 It is however certain that Juan Leita possessed information derived from one of the expulsed Jesuits and that he in connection with his companion rediscovered several rich mines from which they obtained considerable quantity of gold and silver but if we take into consideration the amount of work which these celebrated spanish adventurers are said to have performed in the Province of La Rioja and that of Catamarca the date of their arrival in South America must have been anterior to 1803 The mines which Juan Leita rediscovered included Santo Domingo Santa Rosa and Viuda in the Cerro Negro Socorro and other in the Tigre San Pedro Bartolome and Mercedes in the Caldera Vieja The great success obtained by these indefatigable Aragoneses gave considerable impulse to the spirit of speculation as far as obtaining mining concessions went and it had the effect of drawing miners from different parts of the Argentine Chilian Bolivian and Peruvian countries who flocked to Famatina spying the actions of Leita and Echavarria for the object of obtaining concessions of mines adjoining those taken up by these discovering Aragon esses

Chilian history records that Juan Leita and Juan Echavarrfa resided in Copiapo and that in 1811 they travelled by the road of the Incas in a journey undertaken to Peru accompanied by an Indian servant but as the latter did not know the passes of the Andes Leita procured the services of a young man from one of the Estancias on the road and after a fatiguing journey they arrived at the Argentine side of the Andes but a heavy storm came on obliging the party to search for shelter among the caves of the rocks in a narrow but deep gorge where they passed the night. In the morning they observed that the stones which they had gathered the previous night to surround the fire were white and this unusual circumstance led to an examination resulting in the discovery that the stones consisted of silver. It was at once concluded that these silver stones must have fallen from some high point in the mountain into the gorge. A search was consequently commenced and after expending considerable time the original nal vein of silver mineral from which the stones had fallen was discovered and for future reference a large cross was made upon it with a knife and as much of the silver mineral as possible was taken away

In order to guard the secret of the discovery the party determined to travel by unfrequented roads and in this manner the small villages were avoided but on approaching some part of the province of Tucuman the party was surprised by a band of patriotic guerrillas soldiers under the orders of General Belgrano but on the approach of the soldiers Juan Echevarria escaped and Juan Leita had just sufficient time to enter afield close at hand and bury the treasure of silver which he had carried from the discovered vein He was however immediately surrounded and taken before the General and charged with having received in Copiapo secret letters and orders to carry out an important commission before the royal authorities in High Peru tending to destroy the plans of the Government existing under regime of 25th May and 18th September 1810 In his confession Leita made known his discovery of the silver vein and of his hurried treasure in the field. Belgrano ordered the treasure to be disinterred and was inclined to pardon Leita making it a condition that the latter should indicate the position of the silver vein but consequent upon his having previously gone by difficult and unusual routes his description was not sufficiently clear and positive to satisfy the general who ultimately ordered Leita to be shot vhich occurred in 1812

The existence of Juan Leita is referred to at page 397 volume II of a work written on the Argentine Republic by the French Doctor of Medecine Martin de Moussy who wrote in 1860 about the Aragoneses in a doubtful manner but the actions of Leita were of great importance as marking a particular period in the mining history of the country The evidence proving that Leita and Echavaria came into the Province of La Rioja and operated in the Famatina mountains is to be found in the original book of Registrations and Demarcations of the mines of San Pedro of Famatina written by the Territorial Judge by order of Don Baltazar Hidalgo de Cisneros Virrey de estas Provincias dated Anguinan 10th June 1810 The record translated is as follows August 31st 1810 Don Juan Echevarria for himself and in the name of his companion Don Juan Leita natives of the kindgdom of Aragon presented three documents for silver mineral asking for three concessions of mines situated in the Caldera Vieja expressing that two of the said veins of mineral ran in a North and South direction and that the third vein had an East and West bearing naming the mines Bartolome Mercedes and San Pedro de Famatina. From the same document we find that on the same day three other mines were asked for by independent persons adjoining those of Echavaria and Leita. Also on the 1st September 1810 three other mines were applied for in the same neighbourhood one of these being taken up by Don Melchor Zarate from Potosi Peru
On the 9th September 1810 Don Juan Echavarria again presented himself before the Government authority asking for concession of a mine on behalf of himself and Juan Leita be taken upon a vein of mineral to the East of the said Bartolome and about four cuadras distant from it vein bore North and South and called Veta Azul On 8th of October 1810 Juan Echavarria presented to the Territorial Judge a document correcting the direction of the veins mineral in the mines applied for on the 8th of August previously noted. No further record of the Aragoneses can at present be traced and as the Chilians assert that Leita and Echavarria resided in Copiapo in April 1811 and that Leita was shot in 1812 it is probable that the records under notice refer to last mining acts in the Province of La Rioja and also that the mines taken up by them in the Caldera at the dates mentioned could not have been exploited to any extent or for any considerable length of time The Register Book referred to and from which I have taken these notes was commenced in 1810 and closed in 1824 it therefore contains notices extending over a period of fourteen years

Sufficient evidence however exist to prove that the Jesuits mines in the chain of mountains of the Aconquija it is reported that there still exists at the top of this mountain many roads and ruined buildings and these circumstances led to the conclusion that mining operation must have carried on there for a considerable period of time [In the year 1881 a bell was found weighing 1 quintal on the of the Cerro Aconquija and it came into the possession one of the members of the family of General Navarro There are many traditions referring to ancient mining in this and to rich mines discovered by Juan Leita the Aragones pioneer of South America and others and to those mines hidden either by the Indians or in later by the Jesuits .

The following embraces one of the most authenticated accounts of its kind Don Manuel T Rodriguez stated that in the year 1847 he saw in the possession of Don Tomas Valdez of the Rioja a manuscript consisting of about 4 pages which actually contained a history of the position of hidden mines in the Cerro de Ambato in the Estancia of the Priest Cordoba. It is stated in this history that one of these mines was covered over with large slate stones and it appears that a part of this Estancia was named Piedra Parada from which Rodriguez affirmed that the history pointed out as being the starting point to the hidden mine in question It seems also that on one occasion a particular search was made according to the directions of the history refered to and that ultimately a large stone was actually found which appeared to cover up a mine but it is stated that this spot could never be found afterwards.
It is stated on good authority by persons of credit who resided in Catamarca that near to the top of the Nevado which is a very high Cerro covered with perpetual snow and situated to the North East of the Fuerte de Andalgala the Jesuits worked a gold mine on the Tucuman side of that mountain and that at their expulsion this mine was shut up by a stone wall which they erected twenty varas or 18 yards in height This wall was erected in such a form as to retain the water which came from the mountains by 3 different streams which seemed to have united at a point in the mountain enclosed by the wall thus a kind of lake was formed the water eventually running over the wall so that the mine has not been rediscovered up to the present time <snip>

Guaranis and this leads us to notice in a cursory manner the historical and interesting land of the Jesuits Missions. Some few expeditions of scientists and others have at different times been undertaken with a view or exploring this vast tract of land but these have been too feeble in their character to enable them to thoroughly investigate or to achieve any important discovery. Every inquirer must conclude that Missions was one of the principal centres of action of the ill treated Jesuit Fathers. These dangerous places were occupied by them at a very early period in the history of South America possibly anterior to the year 1610 but unfortunately there is no documentary evidence to hand by which we could assign the date when they first commenced mining operations. It is however probable that the possession of gold silver and copper would have been an almost immediate necessity and I think we should not do wrong in inferring that they commenced mining soon after the founding of some of their towns concentration of the Indians and introduction of good Government 1 have been unable to discover any printed records of value referring to the number and importance of the mines worked by the Jesuits which is a clear proof that the matter has not been considered of sufficient importance or that the observers and voyagers were more capable of directing their attention to the agricultural prospects the variety of trees and plants growing in Missions than to the mineral resources and nature of the mountains from which the Jesuits extracted mineral wealth.

The Jesuits were very keen and reliable observers and did nothing without making corresponding notes and references. Documents of their time and possibly also maps of the sites of their mineral workings doubtless exist in the Archives of their descendants and others. This seems to be confirmed by a notice just received from a person living in the Gran Chaco who possesses an old map made by the Jesuits of Missiones and it is said that the site of their mining operations is marked upon it. An old priest is said to have presented this map to the person who has it but the latter is too egoistic to allow any one to inspect it. Its date appears to be about 1700 or a little before.<snip>

One of the mountain chains of Missiones runs in a North Westerly direction almost parallel with the Rio Uruguay as laid down in a plan made by the Topographical Department of the Province of Corrientes in 1882. At one point in the Southern part of these mountains we have marked Ensayo de minas de plata hecho por los Padres Jesuitas and to the extreme West of this mountain we have Cante ras de Piedra or the quarries whence the Jesuits obtained the stone for building their edifices. It is further clear that they not only worked for copper but also worked mines of gold and silver as well and we are obliged to believe that the gold mines they possessed were a source of great riches.

Within the last few years it has been discovered that in certain documents of title of property belonging to the family of Luis Lucero there are indications or records that gold was found in the Cerro Rico of La Carolina by a Portuguese monk Geronimo (Jesuit) also in the year 1786 Senor So bremonte Governor of Cordoba gave instructions that the workings of the mines should not be hindered and that they the proprietors should pay to Bartolome Arias Renzel 1% of the proceeds for the remuneration for his services as a mining expert.
<snip>
Doubtless the copper ores reduced in this ancient establishment were obtained from the mines in the cerro de Capillitas and probably from mines situated in other surrounding mountains. This not only seems to be certain from the ancient workings in the copper mines but also from the name given to this mining district. The word Capillitas establishes the fact that the Jesuits had a small Church at the old mines or at the establishment of fundition and hence this region was afterwards known as the Cerro de Capillitas. Unless an extended search were to be made in the Spanish archives and Jesuit colleges it would be impossible to give the date when the old establishment of fundition was first installed or how long it continued but it is highly probable that the date would fall somewhere between 1720 and 1760
Mr William Treloar the gentleman previously referred to formerly obtained good results from the exploitation of his rich silver mines situated in the Cerro Negro. His gold copper and silver mines situated in the district called El Oro have a good history having been exploited by ancient miners probably the Indians and the Jesuits. When examining these mines in about 1883-4 the writer found a curiously formed ancient hammer which he presented to the School of Mines in Paris.

The Silver Mines of Cerro Negro The mines in this district have from time to time attracted much attention and for this reason have become much noted in history arising from the fact that the Santo Domingo mine as we have already noticed in our chapter upon ancient mining was worked by the Indians who were subject to the Incas. The native Indians did no more than explore on the surface but such works were continued by the Jesuits and after their expulsion by their successors the Aragoneses <Jesuit LAY BROTHERS> who obtained great benefit from this mine which circumstance caused it to be considered the most celebrated of all the other silver mines in this district.

The Mineral District of El Oro This district is situated on the south western border of the Cerro Negro and has an elevation above the sea level of about 10,000 feet. No doubt the name of this district was derived from the fact that the various veins of mineral in it contained gold or Oro as it is termed in Spanish As previously indicated the Jesuits exploited some of the mines existing here and it is highly probable that the veins containing gold were indicated to them by the Indianswho were the first exploiters The large excavations made upon the mineral veins which are still open prove that these mines were worked to a considerable extent at that remote period At one time <snip>

It is an historical fact <see first Chapter> that many parts of the districts in these mountain regions contain a large number of mines of various classes especially copper silver and gold but as is the general rule in modern times the want of proper explorations only a small proportion of the mines which undoubtedly exist there has been discovered. It is however almost certain that if proper and prolonged geological and mineralogical explorations were to be made by serious and practically qualified persons some of the ancient rich gold mines of the Jesuits would be discovered/ as well as various new ones of different classes Evidence exists proving that the Jesuits worked mines in these regions and obtained large quantities of gold from them.

The Gold Mining District of San Ignacio The ancient mines in this district are situated in the valley of Punilla at a distance of about 12 leagues in a north western direction from the city of Cordoba Various old workings exist in the mines which according to the best evidence were made by the Jesuits

Mines and Mining in the National Territory of Misiones Not long since a large portion of this territory was transferred the Brazilian Republic by act of arbitration dictated by the of the United States of North America
In Chapter I of notes upon ancient mines etc we have referred to this noted and historical tract of land and given at length all that can be collected as to the mining feats of the Jesuits
The writer has always held a firm opinion that the Jesuits possessed important gold and silver mines on the Brazilian side of the mountains which separate that Republic from Misiones before the land was divided. In fact it is a fine field in which explorations may be made with the probability that some rich mines would be discovered.

Well, our Apologists will say, this MUST be from some treasure writer or hate-spewing crackpot, someone with an ingrained "anti-Catholic" purpose - clearly, right? Wrong, the source I am quoting here is,
<Official report upon the mines, mining, metallurgy and mining laws, &c., &c ...
By Henry Davis Hoskold, Argentina. Dirección General MINING AND CIVIL ENGINEER CHIEF OF THE NATIONAL OFFICES OF MINES AND GEOLOGY MEMBER OF THE NORTH OF ENGLAND INSTITUTE OF MINING AND MECHANICAL ENGINEERS AND OF THE AMERICAN INSTITUTE OF MlNINO ENGINEERS NEW YORK ClTY CORRESPONDING MEMBER OF THE NEW YORK ACADEMY OF SCIENCES FELLOW OF THE ROYAL GEOGRAPHICAL SOCIETY AND OF THE GEOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF LONDON AND ALSO LIFE MEMBER OF THE SOCIETY OF ARTS LONDON AUTHOR OF A PRACTICAL TREATISE UPON MINING LAND AND RAILWAY SURVEYING AND ENGINEERING THE ENGINEERS VALUING ASSISTANT VARIOUS ANNUAL OFFICIAL REPORTS UPON THE MINES OF THE REPUBLIC AND OTHER SCIENTIFIC WORKS , Buenos Aires, Argentina, 1904>

I will let our readers digest this, but wish to address one point - if our Jesuit padres were so stoutly defending the Indians from those "evil" Spaniards who wished to enslave them, working in the mines, why would we have cases of Indians running away from the padres to go and work in those very mines for those "evil" Spaniards? For example, here is the testimony of ONE Indian,

So because of this and because the fires of rebellion were getting very hot, I decided to leave the village and went to live among the Spaniards. With this purpose I went to the ranch of Don Bernardo de Urrea to look for my horses, and then I returned to get my children with whom I went to Agua Caliente. Even then I was not safe from the persecution of the Fathers, because Lieutenant Don Cristóbal Yañez told me, "You must leave here because I have a letter from Father Jacobo Sedelmayr instructing me to give you fifty lashes and banish you from these parts."

<Pedro de la Cruz Chihuahua, Santa María Suamca, November 29, 1751" (AGI, Guadalajara 419, Francisco Padilla Testimony, 3m-55, pages 28-35>

Strange and isolated incident?
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

Over the years, I have been accused of slinging a little sarcasm, so I believe I am probably well qualified to recognize it when I see it.
The fact that others may have a different opinion should be welcomed, rather than scorned. How else will we learn the weakness in our own opinions and conclusions, thus strengthening our own arguments?

I have never argued that no Jesuit ever broke his vows or did an evil deed. Not one of the historians who has ever repeated the mining stories they have heard from others, has ever produced a single piece of evidence. Not one.

Not all of the Jesuits rose to the intellectual level of a Father Kino. Not all of them were able to produce as successful a mission as Father Kino. Not all of them scourged themselves on a regular basis for imagined sins, such as Father Kino did.

You have found two cases where Jesuits engaged in mining, possibly producing a treasure to be hidden away, but more likely creating a healthier mission by investing it back into their herds and crops. Both were removed from their positions. That fact flies in the face of your arguments. Their deeds were not hidden, but admitted and they were both punished.

The reason for the "Rules and Precepts....." was because the rules of conduct were being broken by some priests. Because they were surrounded by political enemies, the Jesuits needed to walk a very narrow path. Like now, if one fell from that path they were all painted with the same broad brush. In the end, it was politics that killed the beast.

I don't claim to know everything about the Jesuits, but I have been looking into their history for close to thirty years. I have absorbed a little knowledge of the Order, if only by osmosis. I have believed, argued and researched both sides of this topic. IMHO, the believing part is more important than either of the other two. Believing gives your research more focus.

I don't expect to convince a single believer in Jesuit treasure that they are wrong. I do expect, and hope, to learn a great deal more about both sides of the topic.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Joe,

Did you write that last post before you read Oro's, or did you just dismiss what Oro posted?

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Can you tell me what this means?:

"Aragoneses <Jesuit LAY BROTHERS>"

Thank you in advance.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

I wrote that as Roy was writing and posting his post. I read his afterwards. I never dismiss anything that Roy writes. I might not agree, but I try my best to do that respectfully.

Take care,

Joe