JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[deducer]

deducer, are you implying the the story of the Aztecs is made up? or the treasure of the Jesuits location is made up? If so what documentation do you have that proves any of it false?

If I thought you were making things up, I would let you know.

Whether the Aztec-Jesuit connection is real or not doesn't matter, as that is not the subject of this thread.

 

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[sailaway]

I agree as it was a huge waste of my time to show what the house was, even though it only took a half hour search. I was only wanting Oro and everyone else to see that there may be a connection to Casa Grande though.

 

[deducer]

I agree as it was a huge waste of my time to show what the house was, even though it only took a half hour search. I was only wanting Oro and everyone else to see that there may be a connection to Casa Grande though.

There is a Jesuit connection to Casa Grande. Kino describes it in his journals, and others have done so. The number of Jesuits familiar with that site makes me suspect that it may well have been a jumping-off point.

 

[Frankn]

82 found

Here's a treasure find in AZ. Rock signs of both the Mayan # system and the Jesuit cross led to the multiple locations of the gold bars that bore Jesuit markings. I think the Jesuits used the old Mayan # system to through off others.

Hay, the story is interesting. Frank
82 found

 

[deducer]

82 found

Here's a treasure find in AZ. Rock signs of both the Mayan # system and the Jesuit cross led to the multiple locations of the gold bars that bore Jesuit markings. I think the Jesuits used the old Mayan # system to through off others.

Hay, the story is interesting. FrankView attachment 1104954
View attachment 110495582 found

You claim to have read this entire thread, and it is pretty obvious you haven't.

The 82 lb discovery has been mentioned in this thread only around 300 times.

 

[sailaway]

What does a picture taken June of 06 in Yellowstone have anything to do with the 82 Bars in Arizona? so why post that?

 

[Oroblanco]

If memory serves, father Kino suspected or theorized that Casa Grande ruins were built by the Aztecs in their migration. Not sure that makes a strong link to any Jesuit treasure or mines however. If you believe that the Jesuits found the famous treasure of Montezuma, I would like to hear your reasons? Thanks in advance.
Oroblanco

 

[sailaway]

Aztec/Jesuit Theory:
I am of the thought that the Molina Map and the stone maps may be a copy from the maps of the Aztecs of the area where Montezuma's Treasure was found by the Aztecs. Montezuma's Treasure was found as a treasure stash close to their original home and kept by them for the gods.(Casa Grande/White Mountain) When the Spanish showed up they were shown the treasure and told that nothing had been used and were only holding it for the return of the God Quetzalcoatl. The maps fit many over laying areas all on and around White Mountain, so finding the exact location may be harder than the Jesuits thought. I have seen many locations of old digs where the maps could point to, so it appears that the Jesuits were searching for the treasure. Did they find it? We will not know until Montezuma's Treasure is located and inventoried. Somewhere in my books it gives a description of the treasure as ornate plates, goblets, and other fine table ware along with statues and jewelry all made of solid gold. However all the digging the Spanish did in the Superstitions did leave many areas that the Jesuits could bury their own treasure in, because they did find deposits of ore where the maps pointed.
Question is was it against the Orders of the Church to be a treasure hunter for the Jesuits of old? Why was Father Kino fixed on Casa Grande? Could the Large house of Casa Grande be the Temple that was the locator for the maps?
Here we are following a 900 year old treasure hunt today.
Is this King Solomon's table setting?

One thing that may prove that the treasure was found would be if the Vatican has any of the objects in their inventory. It would be things like Golden plates with ancient Hebrew writing on them.

 

[Frankn]

You claim to have read this entire thread, and it is pretty obvious you haven't.

The 82 lb discovery has been mentioned in this thread only around 300 times.

deducer, you read it 300 times? I bet you finally got it down pat.
Now, I am not as ambitious as you. There is no way I am going to read over 3200 posts.
By the way, you are trying to put words in my mouth. I said I skimmed the original post.
FrankI call this the inquisitor

 

[releventchair]

What does a picture taken June of 06 in Yellowstone have anything to do with the 82 Bars in Arizona? so why post that?

Art is one of Frankn's mediums and often a signature.

C'mon Frankn catch up!
This bunch has done a lot of diggin;research wise especially, and it can be rare to find something new to present.
To their credit they can be a patient lot at times. At times...

 

[Frankn]

What does a picture taken June of 06 in Yellowstone have anything to do with the 82 Bars in Arizona? so why post that?

Well, to be honest, it just adds color to the story. By the way It was taken on one of my trips to Yellowstone NP . That's why it is listed as such in the metaldata. The location is in Dixie National Forrest which strangely enough is between Zion NP and Capitol Reef NP. I have traveled around the US many times and taken many pictures. I use them to take the 'dryness' out of some posting. Many images shown with stories are attached from other sources for 'color'. It's a common practice in the publishing industry. Frank
Now this was in Yellowstone. I admit it, I added my painting of the butterfly.to this picture.

 

[deducer]

deducer, you read it 300 times? I bet you finally got it down pat.
Now, I am not as ambitious as you. There is no way I am going to read over 3200 posts.
By the way, you are trying to put words in my mouth. I said I skimmed the original post.

You claimed to have skimmed over the "original starter thread," whatever that means, as opposed to skimming "the original post."

 

[Oroblanco]

Frankn I think you might find the entire thread interesting reading. A lot of research went into it, sorry if it seems too "dry" for your tastes but the debate has really been about whether the various "legends" about Jesuit treasures and mines have any basis in reality, or if the stories are nothing but fiction made up to sell magazines, books and newspapers. Hence the discussion tends to be a bit on the academic side, "dry" as you put it, but it is how we get at facts rather than just posting stuff for 'color'.

Perhaps it might be a good idea to start a separate thread, where more colorful posts and speculation/theory would be the main topic? It would make this thread easier to follow, and would be an interesting thread in its own right. Just an idea.

To try to tie this back into topic, here is a brief clipping:

It is hard to read, but tells of the finding and recovery of a treasure worth $400,000 <1904 dollar value probable> in a CAVE in Peru, from the Jesuits.
from <New-York tribune., July 17, 1904, Page 17>

Several interesting points about this report, the one that jumps out at me being that it is found IN A CAVE, just as we find that father Kino concealed the treasures of the church during the 1695 Pima uprising, and as padre Keller did in the 1751 rebellion. Objection might be made that this occurred in Peru so has no bearing, however I would argue that it is certainly in the topic of Jesuit treasure legends, and if nothing else is proof of a pattern of behavior by the Jesuits. Also, I am well aware that some people have very negative views toward anything published in newspapers, but I would point out that according to the standards of the US court or judicial system, newspaper articles are considered to be self-evident type evidence, not requiring further support from other sources to be acceptable as evidence.

So please do continue amigos, no offense Frankn about the seemingly off-topic stuff just a suggestion that perhaps that kind of thing deserves its own thread, both to keep this one on topic and to allow the full development of theories and speculation in another thread. I am not the thread owner here so perhaps Gollum has no issue with anything posted, just that some of the materials posted have been rather baffling to me as to how it relates to the topic of Jesuit Treasures, Are they Real?

Oroblanco

Coffee?

 

[deducer]

Finally, we are back on track, thanks Roy.

That article is interesting and absolutely relevant. The New York Tribune was considered to be very trustworthy, unlike it's competitors, the New York Herald and the New York Sun both of which thrived on sensationalism.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Several interesting points about this report, the one that jumps out at me being that it is found IN A CAVE, just as we find that father Kino concealed the treasures of the church during the 1695 Pima uprising..."

Just wondering.......did you find any evidence that other Orders also might have hidden "church treasures" in bad times, or are the Jesuits the only ones with this damning secretive habit?

Did you read what Father Kino might have done with these church treasures........ after the trouble passed?

Hope all is well with you, Beth and the pups.

Take care,

Joe

 

[UncleMatt]

So if you don't have any caves handy, I'm pretty sure mines would do in a pinch....

 

[cactusjumper]

One other thing........No sources were cited for those stories. Just thrown against the literary wall to see what would stick.

Joe

 

[deducer]

One other thing........No sources were cited for those stories. Just thrown against the literary wall to see what would stick.

Joe

No idea what you are talking about here. What stories?

 

[cactusjumper]

Frankn I think you might find the entire thread interesting reading. A lot of research went into it, sorry if it seems too "dry" for your tastes but the debate has really been about whether the various "legends" about Jesuit treasures and mines have any basis in reality, or if the stories are nothing but fiction made up to sell magazines, books and newspapers. Hence the discussion tends to be a bit on the academic side, "dry" as you put it, but it is how we get at facts rather than just posting stuff for 'color'.

Perhaps it might be a good idea to start a separate thread, where more colorful posts and speculation/theory would be the main topic? It would make this thread easier to follow, and would be an interesting thread in its own right. Just an idea.

To try to tie this back into topic, here is a brief clipping:
View attachment 1105403
It is hard to read, but tells of the finding and recovery of a treasure worth $400,000 <1904 dollar value probable> in a CAVE in Peru, from the Jesuits.
from <New-York tribune., July 17, 1904, Page 17>

Several interesting points about this report, the one that jumps out at me being that it is found IN A CAVE, just as we find that father Kino concealed the treasures of the church during the 1695 Pima uprising, and as padre Keller did in the 1751 rebellion. Objection might be made that this occurred in Peru so has no bearing, however I would argue that it is certainly in the topic of Jesuit treasure legends, and if nothing else is proof of a pattern of behavior by the Jesuits. Also, I am well aware that some people have very negative views toward anything published in newspapers, but I would point out that according to the standards of the US court or judicial system, newspaper articles are considered to be self-evident type evidence, not requiring further support from other sources to be acceptable as evidence.

So please do continue amigos, no offense Frankn about the seemingly off-topic stuff just a suggestion that perhaps that kind of thing deserves its own thread, both to keep this one on topic and to allow the full development of theories and speculation in another thread. I am not the thread owner here so perhaps Gollum has no issue with anything posted, just that some of the materials posted have been rather baffling to me as to how it relates to the topic of Jesuit Treasures, Are they Real?

Oroblanco

Coffee?

deducer,

You praised Roy for this post, did you read it?

Good luck,

Joe

 

[deducer]

deducer,

You praised Roy for this post, did you read it?

Good luck,

Joe

I praised Roy for getting the topic back on track.

So this is your roundabout way of insinuating that the Tribune made up, or otherwise relied on "dubious sources" for that article? We have seen this MO many times from you before.

Even if they provided sources, you would still call those sources questionable.

It is pretty obvious what you are insinuating here, without having any grounds as usual, except an agenda perhaps passed on to you by Polzer.