JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[sailaway]

Those who want to see large mines that were developed by the church and later the Guggenheim family look at the Asarco Corp.Mines
ASARCO » Asarco Mineral Discovery Center
ASARCO/GRUPO MEXICO CHRONOLOGY ? Their Mines, Our Stories
The Mission Mine:
Operations: The Mission Complex, an open-pit mine composed of the Mission, Eisenhower, Pima, Mineral Hill and South San Xavier properties and the nearby North San Xavier mine. The current pit, 2.5 miles long by 1.5 mile wide and 1,200 feet deep, is situated on 20,000 acres. Benches are 40 feet high.
Production Statistics:
Copper in Concentrate:
134.3 million lbs. (2012)
145.5 million lbs. (2011)

Silver Bell Mine:
1850 - Gold and silver exploration leads to discovery of high-grade copper mineralization suitable for direct shipment to the east coast or England.
Operations: The mine operates four open-pits (North Silver Bell, El Tiro, West Oxide and East Oxide). All copper in these pits are extracted from the ore utilizing either of two hydrometallurgical processes: dump leaching or rubblization. Approximately 50% of the ore is mined and hauled to dumps for leaching. The remaining 50% will be rubblized. Rubblization is the process where material is drilled, blasted, and then leached in place. Each month 1,800,000 tons of ore and waste are mined, and 700,000 tons of ore is The The four open-pits and other plant facilities are situated on 19,000 acres. Mining affected areas of the facility total 3,900 acres.
Copper-bearing solutions from the dump leach and rubble areas are collected and pumped to the solvent extraction plant where the copper in solution is concentrated over 30 times before being pumped to the tank house. In the tank house, the copper is recovered from solution using the electrowinning process and plated on stainless steel starter sheets as high-purity cathodes. The current cathode production rate is 67 tons per day. Cathode copper produced in the solvent extraction / electrowinning (SX/EW) operation is sold to producers of copper rod, tubing and wire.

The practices used have got them fined for environmental pollution.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122779177

 

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[Scorch]

" ... Unfortunately the written word fails to convey the sense of intended meanings, and can come across harsh or even insulting when that was not the intention. If anything posted seems offensive please accept my apologies for NO offense is intended here. This very lengthy discussion has been very interesting and educational for me, had thought I had a good handle on the topic but instead have had numerous revelations thanks to being forced to return to the books (and internet) which has been a good thing. I do wish that I could learn to say things in just a few words.

As to the Basques and/or Germans having a secret sub-group within the Jesuit Order, I have seen nothing to indicate any such cabal at work. If such a secret group existed, they have covered their tracks well. Such a group would have been operating counter to the Society of Jesus, in favor of themselves, which I have to say that everything I have seen indicates quite the opposite, the padres being dedicated body and soul to the Order and willing to undergo any kind of hardship or danger to further what they perceived as the goals of the Society and the Church firstly, and the state somewhere down that list."


- I agree the written word can be limiting so please understand there is No malicious intent in my reply. thankyou ! In trying to decide on a 'reading plan' for this mystery, I decided to start with the etymology. Found this article by Donald Garate with the NPS, wherin he makes some interesting statements which I copy here:



" ... Investigation of the nature of the planchas de plata now shifted to Mexico City. Fiscal Ambrosio Melgarejo, state attorney, believed that the silver was a treasure, hidden there by some ancient people. Consequently, it should all belong to the King.44 The Fiscal=s report was sent to the Real Acuerdo for their opinion.45 They reviewed it and five of the six members leaned toward the treasure theory but felt there should be further investigation. The sixth and dissenting member offered the opinion that the silver must have come from a natural vein.46 Viceroy Juan Antonio de Vizarrón y Eguiarreta, Archbishop of Mexico, followed the advice of the five and ordered further assays and studies.47...

44. Ambrosio Melgarejo, Findings, Mexico City, 20 March 1737, AGN, Minería 160, Leg. 1, ff.104-114v.
45. Juan Antonio de Vizarron y Eguiarreta, Assignment, Mexico City, 23 March 1737, Ibid., f. 114v.
46. Real Acuerdo, Opinion, Mexico City, 11 April 1737, Ibid., ff. 115-115v.
47. Juan Antonio de Vizarron y Eguiarreta, Order, Mexico City, 4 May 1737, Ibid., f. 115v.


... In time, he and five of the leading miners of Sonora gathered at San Antonio de Padua on August 8, 1737.50 The chosen “experts” unanimously concurred that the silver had come from several natural veins.51 ...

51. Juan Baptista de Anssa; Statements taken from Francisco Xavier de Miranda, Andres Sanchez de Padilla, Joseph Nuñez, Joseph de Usarraga, and Ignacio Sambrano; San Antonio de Padua, 12 August 1737, Ibid. ff. 7-10v.

... It has been previously shown that they were dispro-portionately involved in mining and finance and the presidial system of Nueva España in the eighteenth century.68 Furthermore, the existence of a politically and economically powerful Basque network that existed from Mexico City to the northern frontier in Juan Bautista de Anza, the younger=s generation, has also been established.69 However, we will here and in the appendix, examine the existence of that network during the previous generation in Sonora and the possibilities of one of those Basques calling his home or ranch “The Good Oak...”

68. Donald T. Garate, “Vizcaínos, Jesuits and Álvarez Tuñón: An Ethnic View of a Frontier Controversy,” Journal of the Society of Basque Studies in America, Vol. XVI 1996, pp. 65-67.
69. Donald T. Garate, “Basque Ethnic Connections and the Expeditions of Juan Bautista de Anza to Alta California,” Colonial Latin American Historical Review, Vol. 3, No. 4, pp. 71-93.


- He then appends a list of 40 Basques involved with the specific story there, three which I copy here:


" ...
5) Echagoyen, Juan de (the tallest house) - a Mexican born Basque and one of the three Jesuit missionaries who advised Anza as to how he should proceed in the mysterious silver discovery.

31) Usarraga, José de (male doves) - a militia sergeant in Sonora at the time of the Seri war of 1725, he rose to alférez under militia captain, Agustín de Vildósola, the rank that he held at the time of the 1736 discovery. He was one of the mining experts appointed by Anza in the summer of 1737.

40) Sosa, Manuel José de - was Juan Bautista de Anza=s clerk during the incident and even traveled to Mexico City with all the documents and some silver samples and presented the entire package to Viceroy Vizarrón … .” Sosa was involved with the Basques in the early 1720's who were instrumental in the fight to have Gregorio Álvarez Tuñón y Quirós removed as Captain of Fronteras and Juan Bautista de Anza installed in his place. Thus, he could have been Basque, but if not, he certainly knew and understood the culture."


- So, First, nowhere have I suggested that there was a Formal "Cabal", although the Jesuits were certainly comfortable with such groups, as evidenced by their many political intrigues and assassination plot, which got them expelled from some countries.

- Second, I am suggesting that there are at least two Sonoran sub-cultures present in the time which could Informally, and probably did, work to further the Jesuit agenda, should they wish to. Garate's evidence clearly implies this, I think, and He seems to have emphatically believed it.


- Third, If they believed they were acting for the good of the Order, in hiding valuables and treasure, etc., whether they belonged to it or not, they likely could not, and would not, feel they were contradicting the Society of Jesus, Their Vows, or being untrue to themselves.

- So this is what led me to question whether anyone had considered the basque 'angle', I think it is worth looking into.


Thanks!! ,

Scorch

 

[Oroblanco]

- I agree the written word can be limiting so please understand there is No malicious intent in my reply. thankyou ! In trying to decide on a 'reading plan' for this mystery, I decided to start with the etymology. Found this article by Donald Garate with the NPS, wherin he makes some interesting statements which I copy here:



" ... Investigation of the nature of the planchas de plata now shifted to Mexico City. Fiscal Ambrosio Melgarejo, state attorney, believed that the silver was a treasure, hidden there by some ancient people. Consequently, it should all belong to the King.44 The Fiscal=s report was sent to the Real Acuerdo for their opinion.45 They reviewed it and five of the six members leaned toward the treasure theory but felt there should be further investigation. The sixth and dissenting member offered the opinion that the silver must have come from a natural vein.46 Viceroy Juan Antonio de Vizarrón y Eguiarreta, Archbishop of Mexico, followed the advice of the five and ordered further assays and studies.47...

44. Ambrosio Melgarejo, Findings, Mexico City, 20 March 1737, AGN, Minería 160, Leg. 1, ff.104-114v.
45. Juan Antonio de Vizarron y Eguiarreta, Assignment, Mexico City, 23 March 1737, Ibid., f. 114v.
46. Real Acuerdo, Opinion, Mexico City, 11 April 1737, Ibid., ff. 115-115v.
47. Juan Antonio de Vizarron y Eguiarreta, Order, Mexico City, 4 May 1737, Ibid., f. 115v.


... In time, he and five of the leading miners of Sonora gathered at San Antonio de Padua on August 8, 1737.50 The chosen “experts” unanimously concurred that the silver had come from several natural veins.51 ...

51. Juan Baptista de Anssa; Statements taken from Francisco Xavier de Miranda, Andres Sanchez de Padilla, Joseph Nuñez, Joseph de Usarraga, and Ignacio Sambrano; San Antonio de Padua, 12 August 1737, Ibid. ff. 7-10v.

... It has been previously shown that they were dispro-portionately involved in mining and finance and the presidial system of Nueva España in the eighteenth century.68 Furthermore, the existence of a politically and economically powerful Basque network that existed from Mexico City to the northern frontier in Juan Bautista de Anza, the younger=s generation, has also been established.69 However, we will here and in the appendix, examine the existence of that network during the previous generation in Sonora and the possibilities of one of those Basques calling his home or ranch “The Good Oak...”

68. Donald T. Garate, “Vizcaínos, Jesuits and Álvarez Tuñón: An Ethnic View of a Frontier Controversy,” Journal of the Society of Basque Studies in America, Vol. XVI 1996, pp. 65-67.
69. Donald T. Garate, “Basque Ethnic Connections and the Expeditions of Juan Bautista de Anza to Alta California,” Colonial Latin American Historical Review, Vol. 3, No. 4, pp. 71-93.


- He then appends a list of 40 Basques involved with the specific story there, three which I copy here:


" ...
5) Echagoyen, Juan de (the tallest house) - a Mexican born Basque and one of the three Jesuit missionaries who advised Anza as to how he should proceed in the mysterious silver discovery.

31) Usarraga, José de (male doves) - a militia sergeant in Sonora at the time of the Seri war of 1725, he rose to alférez under militia captain, Agustín de Vildósola, the rank that he held at the time of the 1736 discovery. He was one of the mining experts appointed by Anza in the summer of 1737.

40) Sosa, Manuel José de - was Juan Bautista de Anza=s clerk during the incident and even traveled to Mexico City with all the documents and some silver samples and presented the entire package to Viceroy Vizarrón … .” Sosa was involved with the Basques in the early 1720's who were instrumental in the fight to have Gregorio Álvarez Tuñón y Quirós removed as Captain of Fronteras and Juan Bautista de Anza installed in his place. Thus, he could have been Basque, but if not, he certainly knew and understood the culture."


- So, First, nowhere have I suggested that there was a Formal "Cabal", although the Jesuits were certainly comfortable with such groups, as evidenced by their many political intrigues and assassination plot, which got them expelled from some countries.

- Second, I am suggesting that there are at least two Sonoran sub-cultures present in the time which could Informally, and probably did, work to further the Jesuit agenda, should they wish to. Garate's evidence clearly implies this, I think, and He seems to have emphatically believed it.


- Third, If they believed they were acting for the good of the Order, in hiding valuables and treasure, etc., whether they belonged to it or not, they likely could not, and would not, feel they were contradicting the Society of Jesus, Their Vows, or being untrue to themselves.

- So this is what led me to question whether anyone had considered the basque 'angle', I think it is worth looking into.


Thanks!! ,

Scorch

Thank you Scorch - and you present a compelling case.

Much of what you have posted relates to the then-famous Arizonac native silver discovery, which was thrown open to Spanish prospectors rather than being a Jesuit operation. There was a publication damming the Spanish for this, titled 'El Ocio Espanoles' and believed to have been penned by a Jesuit in Sonora, making it seem that the Jesuits were quite upset that their missions near by did not get possession of the silver deposit, and in part blaming the Yaqui Indian for not bringing the information to the padres rather than telling the Spaniards about it. Hence the public debate with the authorities over just whom should own the silver while indeed bringing to light that there were quite a few Basques in the frontier area, does not indicate that there was any 'network' of Basques working to promote the interests of Basques over those of other Spaniards or Jesuits or Indians etc. Anza worked with the Spanish authorities and was a part of the authorities, as an example.

At most, this may well show that there was a sort of 'brotherhood' in which Basques would tend to favor other Basques in the area, but I can't see any kind of formal group at work among them. Sort of the way we find many Irish police in some cities in the 19th century, even though Irish were being excluded from high society in that time, although there really was an Irish secret organization at work promoting and protecting Irish ethnic people so perhaps not a good example to show a parallel? To illustrate what I am getting at, look at the list of emigrants who joined Anza's expedition to California from Arizona - most are Spanish but not Basque. If he were favoring Basques, why not have all or mostly Basques in his colonization expedition?

I have to agree with your third point too - the padres were not violating their personal vow of poverty by amassing wealth for the Order, which has no such vow, and in fact quite the opposite, for they believed that their Church needed to be as visibly wealthy as possible, to impress the people coming to worship. This is stated repeatedly among different Jesuits, and they were well aware that this opulence was having a quite different effect on "outsiders" seeing amazing wealth on display while the people of the parish were in extreme poverty.


Thank you for posting your info, that is the best argument I have seen to support the idea of a Basque 'network' operating in Pimeria Alta.
Oroblanco

 

[Scorch]

- Well, Garate is a heavyweight scholar, working with primary documents, from Archives in Mexico City. So if he tells me that a Basque network existed and it did these things then it is proof enough, I think, at least for now.

- It also has some interesting implications for the treasure maps, I think. For instance, if the originals have a Basque provenance then meanings of some of those symbols may be found in Basque sources, rather than German ones.

- This might mean that while Sevillian Archives are good, if some exist in Navarre, those might be better. Maybe there are Jesuit sources in Navarre which have been less 'explored'.

Thanks!! ,

Scorch

 

[doc-d]

Senor Scorch, gracias….

 

[sailaway]

Basques can be found in every corner of Mexico, including names of cities and regions such as: Arriaga in Chiapas, Durango a State, Reynosa and Laredo in Tamaulipas, Arizpe in Sonora, Bernal in Queretaro or Narvarte in Mexico City, and even dating by the colonial times, Arizona has its name for being and extension of the New Navarre in the province of Sonora, and least not mention in California, Nevada, Idaho, Utah, Oregon and elsewhere of the Western U.S. is the Basque American familial link with Basques in Mexico. The Basques were important in the mining industry,
Basque immigration to Mexico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

by Donald T. Garate
Arizona is a Basque word with a very straightforward meaning:
Ariz - oak tree
on - good
a - the
The Good Oak Tree
First because of a myth that there was a Real de Minas, or a Royal Mining Camp, or District, named “Arizonac” that has been perpetuated in the secondary literature as historical fact, he theorized that the name might come from the Basque arri (rock) and ona (good) with the letter “c” added onto the end of the word to make it plural, as is customary in the Basque language. In short, this would provide a possible meaning of “the good rocks,” describing a mythical mining district in which silver was being extracted from the rocks.
Secondly, however, he suggested that the name very possibly means “the good oaks,” coming from the two Basque words aritz (oak) and ona (good) with the pluralizing letter “c” added at the end. Although any speaker of the Basque language, anywhere in the world would recognize aritz onak to mean “the good oak trees,” Dr. Douglass did not make it clear for the non-speaker that is a modern spelling of the word which came about largely as a result of the Euskara Batua, or Unified Basque Language effort of this century to unify all the Basque dialects and establish a uniform spelling system for writing the language. Although he gave examples of Basque surnames that use the word “oak,” such as Ariz (oak), Ariza (the oak), Arizandi (big oak), Arizmendi (oak mountain), and Arizmendiarrieta (the rocky, oak covered mountains), many readers did not understand that there is a modern spelling, aritz, and a universal historic spelling of ariz or aris. One other surname that should be added to this list is that of Arizona. Though not common, the fact that it was used as a surname is evidenced by the appointment of Fr. Antonio de Arizona as calificador (book examiner) for the office of the inquisition in Mexico City in 1721.
It is necessary to give a brief history of the discovery of the planchas de plata for those who are not familiar with the story, and to review the subject and make corrections in the historical inaccuracies for those who are. To accomplish all of the foregoing, this article will use the original documents of the 1736 silver discovery - something that has not been done before. Everyone else who has written about the subject has either quoted secondary sources for their information and interpretation, or, if they have used the Spanish documents, they have used copies (or copies of copies) of the original documents which were written by the men who were there. Although Spanish escribanos generally copied documents closely and accurately, even an accurate transcription does not tell the reader who's handwriting the original was in or what spelling ability the person had. Copies often correct what the scribe interpreted to be grammatical errors or misspellings in the original, which, when dealing in the subject of ethnic or language differences can have a profound effect on our understanding of the subject. And, as will be shown in the case of Prudhom's map, scribes and cartographers of a different era sometimes added their own interpretation to someone else=s work, often for purposes known only to themselves or those for whom they were working
The story begins in October of 1736. At that time, the most northwestern settlement in Sonora that had a large enough Spanish population to be considered a village was a newly established Real de Minas, or Royal Mining Camp, called Nuestra Señora de la Limpia Concepción del Agua Caliente.
In todays world Agua Caliente lies ten air miles south of the international border between Arizona and Sonora. Although it is the same place as described in the 1736 documents, the patron name of Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception was long ago dropped from the name. The tiny settlement of a few ranch houses in the narrow Planchas de Plata Canyon is eighteen air miles southwest down the mountain from Nogales, Sonora, across a precipitous system of rocky, oak covered canyons and ridges. At the time of this writing, as in 1736, a stones throw from Agua Caliente in La Cienega Canyon near its confluence with the Planchas de Plata, is what todays English speaking cowboy would call a line camp. It was, and is, known as Arizona.
It would appear that there were several people living at Arizona and probably two or three times as many at Agua Caliente in 1736. These were mostly prospectors who were scouring the mountains to the north for mineral deposits and it is clear from their statements that they made no clear cut distinction as to where Agua Caliente ended and Arizona began.
A little over twenty air miles northeast of the Agua Caliente and Arizona settlements (about four miles due east of present-day Nogales) across this rugged and harsh, remote mountainous terrain was an older and larger Spanish settlement. Located in the San Luis and the Upper Santa Cruz River Valleys, which today straddle the international border, were two missions, Guevavi and Suamca, a number of Spanish ranches, and numerous Piman rancherías. Though the majority of the 1736 Spanish ranches were in the San Luis Valley in present-day Sonora, at least two, the Guevavi Ranch and the San Mateo Ranch were located in the upper Santa Cruz Valley in what is today the State of Arizona.
It was on a hill almost equidistant between these Spanish settlements of the San Luis Valley and Agua Caliente/Arizona that a Yaqui Indian prospector, Antonio Siraumea, stumbled onto some large chunks of almost pure silver. Since he was living at Agua Caliente, he returned home and took some of his children back up to the site to help look for more pieces of the precious metal. News of the discovery, of course, spread like wildfire. The first wealth seekers on the scene were residents of Agua Caliente. Francisco de Longoria filed the first, and what appears to be the only legal mining claim at the site of the discovery before the authorities arrived on the scene and put a stop to the digging. Others, illegally and without registering, scooped up the pieces of silver which were lying on or near the surface of the ground. José Fermín de Almazan discovered a single slab that weighed over one hundred arrobas, or roughly one and a quarter tons. He chipped some pieces off of the gigantic chunk and rode over the mountain to Diego Romeros ranch in the San Luis Valley, where he exchanged the silver for trade goods. Word of the marvelous discovery spread from there all over Sonora. Practically over night a frenzied silver rush was on.
Ninety miles away at the village of Bacanuchi where he was conducting court on Tuesday, November 13, 1736, Justicia Mayor, or Chief Justice of Sonora, Juan Bautista de Anza heard of the unusual discovery. Anza was also Capitán Vitalicio, or Captain for Life of the Fronteras Presidio and father of the more famous Juan Bautista de Anza who, in the next generation, lead colonists to San Francisco, orchestrated the Pecos peace treaty with the Comanches, and was governor of New Mexico for ten years. The younger Juan Bautista was four months and six days old when his father received word of the silver strike. As the King's official representative to make decisions in such matters, the senior Anza immediately set to work. Antonio Siraumea, who claimed his rights as the first discoverer, wanted a decision that would force the others who arrived later on the scene, to pay him a share of all the silver they were able to find. However, there were more weighty decisions that needed to be made. Everything, that Anza had been told about the nature of the silver led him to believe that it was somebody's buried treasure or a clandestine smelting operation, and not a natural vein of silver. If that was the case, all of the precious metal would belong to the King. On the other hand, if it was a vein, mining claims must be properly filed and the King's fifth extracted from the total.
Captain Anza obtained opinions from three Jesuit priests, the best educated and most knowledgeable of the law of all the citizens on the frontier.20 With their statements in hand he set out for the discovery site, traveling first via his Guevavi Ranch where he enlisted the help of his ranch foreman and cousin by marriage, Manuel José de Sosa. When the two men and what was evidently a fairly sizeable soldier escort arrived at the scene on November 20, they immediately began taking depositions. Anza named the site after his patron saint, San Antonio de Padua.
Santiago Ruiz de Ael, a merchant who was on the scene selling food and other supplies from a heavily laden pack string he had brought over 150 miles from Motepore, estimated that there were four hundred people there scratching in the earth, searching for more of the bolas y planchas. Whatever the numbers may have been, Anza quickly put a stop to their unregistered and illegal prospecting. He placed an embargo on the silver until such time as a determination could be made concerning how much of it belonged to the King. He put a soldier guard around the site to make sure that everyone abided by his orders. Then he did what seems to have brought Arizona to
the forefront and left San Antonio de Padua in obscurity. He rode the twelve miles down the canyon to Bernardo de Urrea's house where he spent from November 28 to Decemeber 3 dictating and signing dispatches and orders, and impounding all the silver that had been found. Urrea was his teniente, or deputy justice over the Realito of Agua Caliente and its district, but his house was located, not in the real, but in el puesto, the place or residence called Arizona.
Thus sixteen important documents dictated to Sosa and signed by Anza, were written and dated at Bernardo de Urrea's house in el puesto del Arizona. Statements from other individuals were also taken there. It was at Urrea's house at Arizona that Santiago Ruiz de Ael, the merchant of Motepore, first filed his petition with Anza to get his impounded silver back. Over the course of the next few years in far away locations like Mexico city, or even other areas of Sonora, the place called Arizona began to be confused with the place called San Antonio de Padua. Arizona soon began to take on a much larger than life image in the eyes of those who had never been there.
Anza appointed a couple of miners to take samples and assay the silver. Just before he left Arizona to ride back up to San Antonio, as he was about to mount his horse, he was presented with a petition from fifteen residents of the Real of Agua Caliente, asking that the embargo be lifted as soon as possible so they could have their silver back. At the site of the discovery, he tightened up security, examined Almazan's one-ton chunk more closely, dictated more orders, and then continued on up and across the mountains to the San Luis Valley. There, at Nicolas Romero's Santa Barbara Ranch, between December 5 and 20 he dictated and received more dispatches. Orders were sent to his deputies throughout Sonora, to confiscate and impound the silver wherever it had been taken in trade. On December 20, 1736, having been informed that everyone had vacated the site of the discovery, and leaving Urrea in charge of its security, Anza headed back to Fronteras to be with his family during the celebration of the “Holy Days.”
In January when the silver had all been impounded, Anza dispatched Sosa to Mexico city with copies of all the letters, orders, dispatches, petitions, etc. Two court cases also developed simultaneously. Ruiz de Ael petitioned the Real Audiencia through appointed lawyers in Mexico City to order Anza to return the impounded silver that he had taken in trade, a case which he lost.
José de Meza and Francisco de Longoria filed suit with the Audiencia in Guadalajara against Sonora's Alcalde Mayor, Francisco de Garrastegui. This came about because Garrastegui had previously opened the borders of Sonora to Anza for further exploration. Now with the magnificent silver discovery on the very northern border, it seemed eminent that the Viceroy would approve such an exploration party. Meza, who was obviously the instigator and main pusher of the suit, sought to block Anza from receiving the commission that he might obtain the honor for himself and carry out the exploration as soon as his impounded silver was returned. He also lost his case when it was pointed out by the court that, He was not the first discoverer of silver, as he claimed and Just because he had fought valiantly while his family was being killed by Apaches did not qualify him to be commissioned a captain and lead an important exploratory expedition.
Investigation of the nature of the planchas de plata now shifted to Mexico City. Fiscal Ambrosio Melgarejo, state attorney, believed that the silver was a treasure, hidden there by some ancient people. Consequently, it should all belong to the King. The Fiscal's report was sent to the Real Acuerdo for their opinion. They reviewed it and five of the six members leaned toward the treasure theory but felt there should be further investigation. The sixth and dissenting member offered the opinion that the silver must have come from a natural vein. Viceroy Juan Antonio de Vizarrón y Eguiarreta, Archbishop of Mexico, followed the advice of the five and ordered further assays and studies.
After reviewing all the opinions and studies and Ruiz de Ael=s court case, Vizarrón sent orders to Anza on June 8, 1737 “...to go immediately, with the most expert miners of those regions, to survey the make-up and quality of the land in the canyon where the silver was found...” and determine exactly how the silver chunks had been produced. Anza acknowledged receipt of the order on July 19, but estimated it would take him three weeks to gather a group of expert miners at the site because they were all fifty or sixty leagues (roughly 150 miles) away. In time, he and five of the leading miners of Sonora gathered at San Antonio de Padua on August 8, 1737. The chosen “experts” unanimously concurred that the silver had come from several natural veins. Anza scoured the surrounding hills in search of any evidence of covert smelting operations, finding nothing. He interviewed Pima Indians from Saric but they had no knowledge of the silver, claiming that they never entered the remote area because of its inaccessibility and ever-present Apache danger.
Captain Anza then proceeded to Agua Caliente where he lifted the embargo and returned everyone's silver to them, minus the King's fifth and enough for expenses that had been incurred.
Turning back once again to the discovery site, he surveyed a 160-vara (1440 square foot) claim and registered it to Antonio Siraumea. A three hundred pound piece of the one-ton plancha was sawed off to be transported to Mexico City for further studies. Almazan was to receive payment for it as it now truly belonged to him. By the end of September Anza was back at Fronteras where he compiled his final report on the matter to the Viceroy.
One year after the initial discovery, several miners were now legally working the area and some new silver had been discovered. The three hundred-pound piece of silver was on its way to Mexico City, where it would arrive by March of 1738. The original prospectors had been given most of their impounded silver back and everyone on the frontier seemed content. Fiscal Melgarejo, however, was furious! He ranted about Anza's and the five mining experts' incompetency and the inconsistencies between their statements in 1737 as compared to the statements Anza had made in November of 1736. He stopped just short of calling Viceroy Vizarrón, himself, incompetent and demanded that “true” experts be sent to the site for further study.
http://www.nps.gov/tuma/historyculture/upload/TUMA-Arizona-article.pdf

In this paper issued by the National Parks Service it also proves that there was a Basque network that was heavily involved in miming.

THERE is much evidence in Scripture to show that Israel has been, and still is, a scattered people, in spite of the fact that the great majority of the nation has been gathered in the isles of the west (2 Samuel 7:10). The blindness which God cast upon this people as to their identity and whereabouts, was one feature of their seven times of punishment (2520 years). This has caused historians and ethnologists to fail in linking up these various remnants of Israel with their ancient forebears.
One such remnant is, today, to be found in south-west France and north-east Spain, with the Pyrenees mountains dividing them. These people are known as the nation of the Basques.
The Basques

The Alhambra Decree (also known as the Edict of Expulsion) was an edict issued on 31 March 1492 by the joint Catholic Monarchs of Spain (Isabella I of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon) ordering the expulsion of Jews from the Kingdoms of Castile and Aragon and its territories and possessions by 31 July of that year.
In 2014, the government of Spain passed a law allowing dual citizenship to Jewish descendants who apply, in order to "compensate for shameful events in the country’s past." Thus, Sephardic Jews who are descendants of those Jews expelled from Spain due to the Alhambra Decree can become Spaniards without leaving home or giving up their present nationality.

Alhambra Decree - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...6978dc-9810-11e3-ae45-458927ccedb6_story.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardi_Jews

Is this proof that the Basque took refuge in Mexico when expelled from Spain? Could it be that the Basque immigration was one of the reasons that Mexico was so successful? I have touched briefly on this subject in the past.

 

[deducer]

Come on Joe, you've got to come back here and disagree with us. Don't let this thread die.

 

[cactusjumper]

Come on Joe, you've got to come back here and disagree with us. Don't let this thread die.

deducer,

I don't know much about the Basque story, but it's just a theory. There is a strong argument to favor the Basque debate, but the first theory will be hard to overturn. It's been fairly well accepted for too many years.

I don't know how it can ever be proven......either way. Both theories have good facts to back them up.

Don't believe we can come to a rock-solid conclusion here.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ya cotton pickin right they do, but not as many as most believe. Where's my coffee?

 

[deducer]

deducer,

I don't know much about the Basque story, but it's just a theory. There is a strong argument to favor the Basque debate, but the first theory will be hard to overturn. It's been fairly well accepted for too many years.

I don't know how it can ever be proven......either way. Both theories have good facts to back them up.

Don't believe we can come to a rock-solid conclusion here.

Good luck,

Joe

You know what I was talking about.

You made the claim that you have not seen evidence that Jesuits conducted mining in "Northern Mexico," yet you were presented with overwhelming evidence here and here and have chosen to completely ignore these, which I think is an affront to your friends.

 

[cactusjumper]

You know what I was talking about.

You made the claim that you have not seen evidence that Jesuits conducted mining in "Northern Mexico," yet you were presented with overwhelming evidence here and here and have chosen to completely ignore these, which I think is an affront to your friends.

deducer,

Perhaps I have not made my position clear. I have not seen evidence that convinces me that the Jesuits of Northern Mexico conducted extensive mining, using the natives to do the work, and left a vast treasure hidden when they were expelled.

I don't have the same amount of confidence in others sources as they do. They may very well be correct. As soon as I am as convinced as you seem to be, I will let everyone here know. Until then, I reserve the right to be skeptical. I also understand that it's possible that I'm just to dumb to understand your "here and here".

I am allowed to "claim" anything I like! Just get over it and get on with ragging on someone else.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

deducer,

Perhaps I have not made my position clear. I have not seen evidence that convinces me that the Jesuits of Northern Mexico conducted extensive mining, using the natives to do the work, and left a vast treasure hidden when they were expelled.

I don't have the same amount of confidence in others sources as they do. They may very well be correct. As soon as I am as convinced as you seem to be, I will let everyone here know. Until then, I reserve the right to be skeptical. I also understand that it's possible that I'm just to dumb to understand your "here and here".

I am allowed to "claim" anything I like! Just get over it and get on with ragging on someone else.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Sheesh Joe - sure you are entitled to your opinion. I am a little surprised that you reject the Catholic study published by a Franciscan Catholic university, titled "The Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico 1767" and listed MINES owned by different Jesuit colleges, or that the Jesuit's California Fund, which also owned mines openly, you dismiss and have no faith in? Are these sources to be classed in with imaginative treasure writers, Catholic-haters and slick promoters with no scruples? Not sure where that "VAST" part entered into the description(s) of Jesuit mining and what they had produced. That may be a point we agree on - for there is no evidence of VAST mining in the southwest by ANYONE prior to the arrival of the Anglos. But the mining done was more than a few prospect holes too.

Good luck and good hunting Joe and anyone reading this, with no remaining counter-arguments to be made I guess this thread is really done.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Yer wrong, where did the supposed bars in Victorio Peak and Caballo mts come form

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Perhaps I have not made my position clear. I have not seen evidence that convinces me that the Jesuits of Northern Mexico conducted extensive mining, using the natives to do the work, and left a vast treasure hidden when they were expelled.

I don't have the same amount of confidence in others sources as they do. They may very well be correct. As soon as I am as convinced as you seem to be, I will let everyone here know. Until then, I reserve the right to be skeptical.

What "convinces" you is entirely a matter of subjectivity. I'm pretty sure that even if you were presented with a photo of an actual Jesuit Mine in Northern Mexico, you would find a way to evade addressing it directly, and probably called it a phony, or at least photoshopped, which is your prerogative, but the least you can do is acknowledge the extent to which other posters go to refute your claim. They've done a lot of research and legwork.

 

[cactusjumper]

What "convinces" you is entirely a matter of subjectivity. I'm pretty sure that even if you were presented with a photo of an actual Jesuit Mine in Northern Mexico, you would find a way to evade addressing it directly, and probably called it a phony, or at least photoshopped, which is your prerogative, but the least you can do is acknowledge the extent to which other posters go to refute your claim. They've done a lot of research and legwork.

deducer,

I have been over the same ground.......years ago. I've spent many hours researching the Jesuit presence in Mexico and talked to many of the historians who have written on the subject. That does not make me an expert on the subject but I do feel reasonably informed. Nothing, of course, like your vast knowledge, but just enough education to get me in trouble.

Where can I find your posts on the subject........ say from around ten years ago?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Yer wrong, where did the supposed bars in Victorio Peak and Caballo mts come form

Two separate and probably not related treasures you are referring to there, with very little to support that either was the property of the Jesuits. The VP treasure I believe is long gone and hence not something I would spend any time on for I am not like those treasure hunters whom are independently wealthy, and interested in the history only. The Caballos being possibly linked to padre La Rue, whom may have been a Jesuit but may have been Franciscan or Dominican or Augustinian or who knows? Very little documentation on the La Rue treasure and mine(s). There are signs of some kind of mining activity in the Caballos I will agree, but as to who or whom is responsible, I sure can not say. If you have some evidence linking the Jesuits to either or both of these treasures, I would love to see it, thank you in advance.

May have some other evidence to add to this debate, later this evening. I am not willing to anger friends over this so can happily drop it too.

Oroblanco

 

[sailaway]

Joe, I consider you one of the Fathers of this hunt, predecessor to somehiker, you are one of the most knowledgeable persons alive on the subject so would venture to call you one of the ONLY experts on the subject, and so I would like to know what facts and evidence you came across (even though you may have presented such facts in the past) that led you to the current state of denial of Jesuit treasures. I am very sure that with your vast knowledge of this subject that you could write several pages on the merits for the rest of us to study. Was there any dead ends that you have ran into in your research that maybe the rest of us could help you research?
Jose I see no one has given you your coffee yet, so here.
OPPS, sorry ORO did not see you had given out general Coffee!

 

[sailaway]

Charles de La Rue (1643-1725)
Language :français
Gender :masculin
Birth :Paris, 03-08-1643
Death :27-05-1725
Note :A aussi écrit en latin
Jésuite. - Entre au noviciat (en 1659). - Enseigna les humanités et la rhétorique à Paris. - Poète et auteur dramatique néo-latin. - Prédicateur
Field :Religion
Littératures
Variants of the name :Carolus Ruaeus (1643-1725)
Charles de Larue (1643-1725)
Carlos de La Rue (1643-1725)
See more:
Charles de la Rue , born on 3 August 1643 in Paris where he died on 27 May 1725 , is a writer Jesuit French .
Entered the Society of Jesus in 1659 , La Rue had a great reputation either as humanist or as preacher . Posted in Cevennes , there converts multiple Calvinists , and he taught the humanities and rhetoric at Louis-le-Grand college in Paris.
Advent sermons of 1678 and the advent of 1684 the Jesuit convent in the Rue Saint-Antoine, of Lent 1686 in Saint-Eustache and Saint-Sulpice in Advent, Advent of 1687 and Lent of 1693 to the court, and his funeral orations of the great Condé and Marshal Luxembourg had earned him a reputation that almost equaled that of Bourdaloue but did not confirm the publication of the speech ( 1719 ).
He was also a playwright Latin.
He became, in March 1705 , the confessor of the Duchess of Burgundy, and confessor of the Duke of Berry in 1712 . Pierre Corneille made ​​much of his talent.
It was also written in Latin as the "Carolus Ruaeus".
Publications: Panegyrics, funeral orations and sermons of morality ; Paris, 1719, 8vo; Lyon, 12mo; a Lent and Advent ; 4 vol. 12mo;
Letter; Writing intended to defend what he had advanced preaching in Alencon in 1680; it was inserted by the abbot Tilladet in his Essays on various subjects of religion and philology ; tom. I
Panegyrics of saints and funeral orations ; Paris, 1740, 3 vols.
ISNI :ISNI 0000 0000 7973 7494
http://data.bnf.fr/12071918/charles_de_la_rue/

French records show La Rue as a Jesuit stationed in the Cevennes, France however I noticed by the last names used he must have been a french Basque also. Then the fact that he died in Paris shows that the writings of him being killed in the New Mexico south west are not true. This does not mean that he had nothing to do with the treasure that was suppossedly hidden there, but leads doubt to the story we are told of DOC and his find of treasure that was then re-hidden by a crazy Okie foot doctor. It would also be hard for someone to take confessions from the Duchess and Duke if he was in the Americas. Can anyone else add to this? But if it is true that La Rue did form a mining camp in New Mexico it would prove that the Jesuits did infringe on the Franciscans domain. Not only would the Jesuits have been in the Franciscans area it would also prove that the French were outside the Louisiana area invading Spain's domain. It is more likely that if there were Gold Bars and coins found in the White Sands Missile Range that it would be the Treasure that Santa Anna is known to have hid before his capture by the Americans just north of the present day border when he fled Santa Fe to the south. The treasures hidden by Santa Anna would have been the entire Army payroll for one year along with all banking and records from Santa Fe, NM that the Mexicans did not want to fall into the Americans hands.

CAMISARDS, the name given to the peasantry of the Cevennes, a mountainous region in s. France, who for several years from 1702 kept up an organized military resistance to the dragonnades, or conversion by torture, death, and confiscation of prop erty, by which, after the revocation of the edict of Nantes, the Roman Catholic leaders endeavored to enforce their authority in all the Huguenot districts. The name is of doubtful origin; some say it was from minim, a white shirt or frock, outwardly worn by the peasants; others that it was from camisade, a night attack; and still others, from cuniis, a road runner. The CAMISARDS were also called barbets (or water dogs, a term also applied to the Vaudois), vagabonds, assemblers (a name given to a meeting or convention of Huguenots), fanatics, and children of God. They belonged to the romance-speaking people of Gothic descent, who took part in the earliest movements towards religious reform. They belonged to the romance-speaking people of Gothic descent, who took part in the earliest movements towards religious reform. It was in Languedoc that the peace of God and the mercy of God were formed in the 11th c. against the miseries of private war. (See Gon's Titres, ante.) There were preserved the forms of municipal freedom, which nearly all Europe had lost; and there commerce flourished without spoiling the thrift, the patience, or the simplicity of the national character. Calvin was warmily welcomed when he preached at Nimes, and Montpellier became the chief center for the instruction of Huguenot youth; but it was in the triangular mountainous plateau called Cevennes (See CEVENNES, ante), among the small farmers, the cloth and silk weavers, and the vine-dressers, that Protestantism was most universal and intense. The people were, and still are, very poor; but they are intelligent and pions, and add to the deep fervor of the Provencal character a gravity that is probably the result of the trials and sufferings of their ancestors.
To understand the position of the CAMISARDS in the war which began at the commencement of the 18th c. it is necessary to glance at the preceding history of France. The system of toleration which was established by the edict of Nantes (see ante), April 13, 1598, and the edict of Grace, .July, 1629, was essentially a political compromise, and not a recognition of religious equality. The right of having a private chapel was given to certain seignieurs. New public churches were to be authorized at a Certain rate in certain places. On the other hand, Calvinists were admitted to all public posts and to all professions; and they could publish books in towns where they had churches. The chamber of edict was formed in the parliament of Paris for the impartial judgment of cases brought by Huguenots; and the half-Catholic, half-Protestant constitution was adopted in the town consulates and the local parliaments of the south. After the short struggle between Louis XIII. and the due de Bohan, the Huguenots settled down into contented industry; the army and navy of France were led by two Huguenots—Turenne and Duquesne—and Cardinal Bentivoglio wrote to the pope that he no longer found in France the insane fervor for right of conscience so radical among the Huguenots. But the court in which Mme. de Maintenon had succeeded to Mme. de Montespan, where Louvois, and the Jesuit, Padre In Chaise, were as supreme as Bossuet and Fleshier in the church, could not long be satisfied with tolerated heresy, which they chose to consider as wailed rebellion. On the death of Mazarin a commissioner had gone over the kingdom to inquire into the titles, or rather to suppress as many as possible, of the Huguenot churches, schools, and cemeteries. The extirpation of heresy had indeed been provided for by a clause in the marriage contract between Louis and Maria Theresa as long before as 1660, and in spite of the protection of Colbert, a policy was begun of gradually destroying the privileges of dissenters. They were shut out from public offices and trade corporations; they were forbidden to marry with Roman Catholics, and the conversion of their children seven years old and upward was encouraged and almost enforced. The famous edict came in Oct., 1685. It directed all dissenting churches to be destroyed, forbade their religious meetings tinder pain of imprisonment and confiscation of property, ordered all pastors who would not change their faith to be banished within fifteen days and to stop preaching at once, promised exemption from taxes and increased salaries to converted ministers, suppressed Huguenot schools and directed all children to be baptized and brought up in the Roman Catholic faith, prohibited all Huguenots except ministers from going abroad, and declared the property of those who had already gone to be forfeited unless they returned within four months. These were the main points of the edict revoking the liberal edict of Nantes. In carrying it out Huguenot Bibles and books of instruction were burned, and Huguenots were forbidden to hire themselves as artisans or as domestic servants. Torture, hangings, insults worse than death to women, the galleys, and imprisonment for life were the ordinary occurrences of the next sixty years. In the twenty years preceding the revocation, it is believed that 400,000 Protestants fled from France, and that 600,000 escaped in the twenty years that followed. But in the Cevennes the people were too poor to escape, and all over Lan guedoc began the secret meetings of the church of the desert. At last Louvois, the sanguinary war minister of Louis XIV., proposed that this district should be made an actual desert. An army of 40,000 was raised, and forts were erected at Nimes, St. Hippol•te, Alais, and Anduze. The abbe du Chaila, a Roman Catholic missionary from Siam, had been appointed inspector of missions in the Cevennes. He introduced the " squeezers " (an instrument of torture which resembled the Scotch " boot "), and his cruelty at last broke the patience of the victims. His assassination, .July 23, 1702, was the first blow in the war. There was to have been a general massacre of Roman Catholic priests, but the plan failed, and the originator, Esprit Seguier, soon fell. Ile was succeeded by La Porte, an old soldier, who, as his forces increased, assumed the title of "colonel of the children of God," and named his country the " camp of the eternal." His captains were selected from those on whom time prophetic. influence had fallen, such as the forest-ranger, Castanet; the wool-carders, Conderc and hazel; and the soldiers, Catinat, Jenny, and Ravenel; but the most famous were Roland and Jeau Cavalier, the baker's boy (see CAVALIER, JEAN). For three years the CAMISARDS. held out. Then there was sent against them an army of 60,000, among them an English brigade which had just returned from the persecution of the Vaudois. A policy of extermination was commenced, and in the upper Cevennes alone 466 villages were burned, and nearly the entire population put to the sword. In this bloody work the pope, Clement XI., assisted by issuing a bull against the "execrable race of the ancient Albigenses," promising remission of sins to the holy militia which was now formed among the Roman Catholic population under the name of cadets of the cross. The formidable force brought against them induced Cavalier to listen to proposals, and he finally assented to a surrender on being guaranteed liberty of conscience, the right of assembly outside of walled towns, the liberation of all his people then in durance, and the restitution to emigrants of their civil rights and property. Still, the greater part of the army. under Roland, Ravenel, and Joany, refused, and insisted upon the complete restoration of the edict of Nantes. They continued the war until the beginning of 1705, by which time their leaders were killed or dispersed and they became disorganized. In 1711 all outward signs of the reformed religion had disappeared, and Mar. 8, 1715, a few months before his death, Louis XIV., by a special medal and by proclamation announced the entire extinction of heresy. Fourteen years afterward, in spite of the strictest surveillance aided by military occupation, there had been organized in Langue doc 120 churches, which were attended by 200,000 Protestants. Persecution could not secure suppression, but it was not until 1775 that the last galley slave from Languedoc was liberated, and not till 1789 that the national assembly repealed all the penal laws against Protestantism.
http://gluedideas.com/content-collection/chambers-3/Camisards.html

This means that La Rue was stationed right in the middle of the controversy of Catholicism vs. Protestantism.

 

[deducer]

deducer,

I have been over the same ground.......years ago. I've spent many hours researching the Jesuit presence in Mexico and talked to many of the historians who have written on the subject. That does not make me an expert on the subject but I do feel reasonably informed. Nothing, of course, like your vast knowledge, but just enough education to get me in trouble.

Where can I find your posts on the subject........ say from around ten years ago?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

The idea that seniority denotes real expertise is not only completely erroneous, but also narrow-minded. There are some posters who have just recently joined that have barely been on this forum for a year, yet the ideas and references they offer are of equal merit as those offered by one who has been in this field 45 years.

You do yourself a disservice dismissing ideas on the basis of seniority. It is perhaps why the posts you made 10 years ago are essentially no different than the ones you make now.

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe, I consider you one of the Fathers of this hunt, predecessor to somehiker, you are one of the most knowledgeable persons alive on the subject so would venture to call you one of the ONLY experts on the subject, and so I would like to know what facts and evidence you came across (even though you may have presented such facts in the past) that led you to the current state of denial of Jesuit treasures. I am very sure that with your vast knowledge of this subject that you could write several pages on the merits for the rest of us to study. Was there any dead ends that you have ran into in your research that maybe the rest of us could help you research?
Jose I see no one has given you your coffee yet, so here.
OPPS, sorry ORO did not see you had given out general Coffee!

sailaway,

Many thanks for the kind (undeserved) words. I am, basically, a fan of history and no expert.

I used to firmly believe in the legends of Jesuit treasure. It took a number of years for me to convince myself of it's being, mostly, made up "history". The local natives and Mexican population have made quite a living off of prodding the Gringo treasure hunters with golden stories. That continues to this day.

There was no one thing that convinced me it was, mostly, a wild goose chase. Rather, it was the overall weight of the written history that I have read over the last few decades......along with private conversations with many authors on the history of early Mexico.

I have written of those conversations, over the years, and they can be found posted here and on the LDM Forum. The effort it would take for me to find and condense that information is well beyond my abilities at this point in my life. Anyone interested could do what I would need to do, which is do a search of my posts on both sites. That would be a prodigious undertaking.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo