JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Oroblanco]

Ruins in Arizona May Be ‘Lost’ Jesuit Mission

Posted by Blake de Pastino on January 20, 2014

If archaeologists working in southern Arizona are right in their assumptions, some adobe ruins showcased in Tumacácori National Park may not be what the pamphlets and tour guides say they are.

Instead, less than a hundred meters away may sit the actual site: the ruins of the 1751 mission of Guevavi, the last Jesuit mission built on the Santa Cruz River before the Catholic order met with native revolt and eventual expulsion. ...

The site, discovered on property owned by the city of Nogales near the Mexican border, has already yielded ruins believed to be those of Arizona’s first Jesuit mission, built in 1701, as well as evidence of centuries’ worth of occupation by the Sobaipuri-O’odham, whose descendants are now part of the Tohono O’odham Nation.

While they stress that their research is not complete, the researchers, led by Dr. Deni Seymour of the Jornada Research Institute, say they’re “excited” that they may have identified the last Jesuit outpost in one of Arizona’s most historically important missions, a “lost mission that scholars didn’t know was lost.” ...

Indeed, Seymour suspects that the large, standing ruins protected in Tumacácori National Park as the 1751 Guevavi mission may in fact be the remnants of a Franciscan church from this later period.

“The Franciscans … tended to build much more grandiose structures,” she said.

Although some histories of the region, including that offered by the National Park Service, posit that the Franciscans simply took over existing Jesuit missions, Seymour says archaeological and historical evidence suggest otherwise.

“When new priests came, they tended to consecrate new altars, and often this meant building a new church,” she said.

“It is highly unlikely that the Franciscans would have used the same church as the Jesuits, as most Franciscan churches in this region are in different locations than the Jesuit ones, sometimes miles away.”

One of the impressions of this thread seems to have been that the Fransicans were, as an order, less fancy than the Jesuits in their approach to their churches , etc. This article from westerndigs.org indicates otherwise. Also, as it indicates, if the standing mission @ Tumacorcori was built by Fransicans, and that they have now found what they believe to be the Jesuit site 100 meters away, then, I wonder what progress , 11 months later now, the city of Nogales would have made on some lost mine. Does anyone know, what progress -if any - they have made? If I had known back in January when they released this, and had a few hundred grand to spare, I'd have been down there buying all the adjacent/ potential land sites I could! Probably a lot of legal consultation going on, if she is resorting to 'crowdfunding'.

One other question: Are there any known maps that are Not copies? I mean - Known to be drawn by eyewitnesses to events of the mines at the time of the events? Or have they all been made or copied after the fact, based on memory or anecdote/ hearsay ?

Thanks !! ,

Scorch

Thank you for posting this, very interesting.

I fear that there may be some misunderstanding in reading the article however - the Guevavi mission being referred to as "in Tumacacori National Park" is this one:
Los Santos Ángeles de Guevavi - Tumacácori National Historical Park (U.S. National Park Service)

Which IS inside the park boundaries but NOT at Tumacacori, it is some miles south. They are not referring to the mission and ruins you see at Tumacacori mission site.

I hope that I did not give the impression that the Franciscans were LESS ornate with their architecture, in fact their churches are what the tourists are coming to see like the beautiful example of San Xavier del Bac. If anything the Franciscan churches are much more ornate than the Jesuit structures which were adobe structures with flat roofs, though richly decorated with paintings and "ornaments" of silver and gold.


The Franciscans did not attempt to keep running so many missions as the Jesuits, which had at one point something like eighteen counting the visitas but not enough padres to allow even one per each. The Franciscans were also definitely involved in mining too, as in this example:

San Antonio another <mining region> about ten miles west of Quitovac was discovered a days after the latter and was exceedingly rich at the surface. The discovery of these placers was owing to Father Faustino Gonzalez who prevailed upon the Papajo to reveal their locality in 1835. Gonzalez made a fortune and he was soon surrounded by whites and in great numbers. The placer continued rich for years and was worked until 1841 when the Papajos and expelled the whites.

Border States of Mexico, Hamilton pp 75

Father Faustino Gonzales was a Franciscan priest.

I would not be too surprised if the original Jesuit mission church of Guevavi is found some 100 meters away from the site currently being touted as "the" mission church.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

 

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[cactusjumper]

Thank you for posting this, very interesting.

I fear that there may be some misunderstanding in reading the article however - the Guevavi mission being referred to as "in Tumacacori National Park" is this one:
Los Santos Ángeles de Guevavi - Tumacácori National Historical Park (U.S. National Park Service)

Which IS inside the park boundaries but NOT at Tumacacori, it is some miles south. They are not referring to the mission and ruins you see at Tumacacori mission site.

I hope that I did not give the impression that the Franciscans were LESS ornate with their architecture, in fact their churches are what the tourists are coming to see like the beautiful example of San Xavier del Bac. If anything the Franciscan churches are much more ornate than the Jesuit structures which were adobe structures with flat roofs, though richly decorated with paintings and "ornaments" of silver and gold.
View attachment 1078072

The Franciscans did not attempt to keep running so many missions as the Jesuits, which had at one point something like eighteen counting the visitas but not enough padres to allow even one per each. The Franciscans were also definitely involved in mining too, as in this example:

Border States of Mexico, Hamilton pp 75

Father Faustino Gonzales was a Franciscan priest.

I would not be too surprised if the original Jesuit mission church of Guevavi is found some 100 meters away from the site currently being touted as "the" mission church.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

Roy,

Much of the above I have been stating for many years now. I am reminded of how many of the atrocities laid at the feet of the Apache, were often other tribes altogether. Not many questions as to how the Franciscans got the funds to build those opulent churches.

Here are a few pictures we took of San Xavier del Bac:






No doubt the missions of northern Mexico were equally as ornate, which is what you have suggested previously. What you have just posted is more in line with the reality of the time.
Because the Jesuits did not man many of their churches, they traveled with the items we consider "treasure" today.
______________________

I have just received a book that I would highly recommend to you. It's written from the diaries of soldiers from the Little Big Horn and others from that era. I was sent a notice of pre-publication sale and jumped on it some time ago.

I will give you the details when I get home this afternoon.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

YE GADS amigo DON'T give them ANY IDEAS!!!!

I have to agree that the forced labor issue is probably one of the things the Jesuits do not want to be remembered in history. While legally the forced labor could not be more than three days per week, there was no one to enforce the law if some padres or coadjutors were bending the laws a bit on that. Plus the fact that the mission Indians were NOT free to leave the mission grounds, nor conduct any business with outsiders without permission of the padres, is another possible 'blotch' on their record they might wish us to forget. I can't imagine that the Jesuits would relish the idea of seeing a Hollywood movie come out depicting the padres as having the Indians whipped and put into stocks for not working hard enough, or that often the Indian rebellions seemed to target the padres as their main antagonists.

Oroblanco <still shuddering at the thought of a Disney park at Salero..... >

Deducer,

I believe most of the uprisings were fomented by the Native American spiritual leaders. In that respect they hated the priests of the NEW god. They saw them, correctly, as eroding their influence and power over the people. That would , perhaps, be a good reason for the uprisings, seemingly, to target the missions and their padres.

The Jesuits argued for the humanity of the natives, and tried to protect them from the more severe treatment of the ranchers and miners. It seems that there's no/little reticence to document the harsh punishment by the priests, as well as the others in power over the natives.

It all has to do with the times, and how they were perceived at the time, as compared to how we perceive their actions in this more genteel era. More like how ISIS is judged by the Western World, but its another story in heavily Muslim eyes.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

Much of the above I have been stating for many years now. I am reminded of how many of the atrocities laid at the feet of the Apache, were often other tribes altogether. Not many questions as to how the Franciscans got the funds to build those opulent churches.

No doubt the missions of northern Mexico were equally as ornate, which is what you have suggested previously. What you have just posted is more in line with the reality of the time.
Because the Jesuits did not man many of their churches, they traveled with the items we consider "treasure" today.
______________________

I have just received a book that I would highly recommend to you. It's written from the diaries of soldiers from the Little Big Horn and others from that era. I was sent a notice of pre-publication sale and jumped on it some time ago.

I will give you the details when I get home this afternoon.

Deducer,

I believe most of the uprisings were fomented by the Native American spiritual leaders. In that respect they hated the priests of the NEW god. They saw them, correctly, as eroding their influence and power over the people. That would , perhaps, be a good reason for the uprisings, seemingly, to target the missions and their padres.

The Jesuits argued for the humanity of the natives, and tried to protect them from the more severe treatment of the ranchers and miners. It seems that there's no/little reticence to document the harsh punishment by the priests, as well as the others in power over the natives.

It all has to do with the times, and how they were perceived at the time, as compared to how we perceive their actions in this more genteel era. More like how ISIS is judged by the Western World, but its another story in heavily Muslim eyes.

It was me that wrote the passage you are replying to in your last post, which I will get to in a moment. This reply is very long so I must ask your indulgence, thank you in advance.

Isn't that odd, how few treasure hunters are interested in the Franciscan padres treasures and mines? As if the lost gold of Bicuner or the Mojave mine would not make one rich - something more attractive or notorious about the Jesuits.

I must respectfully disagree about there being any reticence concerning Jesuit historians reporting on how any recalcitrant mission Indians were treated. In support of my contention on this point, let me quote from father Charles Polzer SJ, noted southwestern historian:

'Finally we are accused of beating the Indians, of imprisoning them, depriving them of liberty by the constant round of tasks which we impose, and thus, fearing our chastisements, they desert the pueblos and leave our partidos depopulated.' The padres did punish and chastise, but as fathers do their children, in ways that remedied abuses but did not embitter or estrange the Indians. And there were crimes which only an occasional lash could speedily correct, for example, hechizeria, rape, incest, desertion to the mountains, drunkenness. Sometimes the culprit ran off, but as a rule the natives accepted their punishment in the spirit in which it was given. As justification for the disciplinary regime and at the same time rebuttal to the charge of cruelty or maltreatment, Faria remarked that the padres lived in peace among their converts and only in the rarest instances had to summon military aid. Faria's memorial is valuable because it is typical. The charges it refuted constituted the rather general attitude of the layman toward the missionary on every frontier. Both fought for the Indian; the missionary in his behalf, the layman to exploit him. Missionaries did make mistakes. Some may have been less spiritually motivated than was to be expected of men in their position. Some too, may have joined hands with the exploiters. But if credit goes to Spain for her handling of the Indian problem, the greater share belongs to the White Robes, Brown Robes, and Black Robes.

The Jesuit Missions of Northern Mexico, Charles W. Polzer, pp 117.

This is pure whitewash, plain and simple. Yes the padres had the Indians beaten and put into wooden stocks, sometimes with fatal results, but it was all like a father scolding his own children. Somehow I wonder if the Indians saw it that way. This too is at odds with what we find in the statements of Indians involved in some of the more famous uprisings as in 1751, Luis Oacpicagua and other Indian witnesses making it clear that the padres were the root cause of the revolt, some even fled to the Spaniards to try to escape the wrath of the padres, just as we find in the 1740 Yaqui rebellion. In each such case, the Jesuits argued vehemently to try to cast the blame elsewhere, on the Spanish governor, the Spanish miners etc anywhere but what the Indians stated, even though the Spanish governor had virtually no influence in the various Indian missions which were run by the padres like little fiefdoms. We have posted some time ago complaints from Jesuit padres about their mission Indians running away to go work in the mines for the Spanish, even refusing to return when promised to be given a gold mine by the padres. Does that make sense to you, if the Jesuit priests were SO gentle, and their modern apologists version is right?

The Franciscans were hardly much better, there are documented cases of their mission Indians running away from the missions wholesale, and of being hunted down by soldiers and mercenary Indians and even dogs. Does that jibe with what father Polzer and other modern historians are telling us?

I am tempted to re-post the report of an English visitor to the Spanish missions, whom witnessed some Indians being punished with the lash, then being forced to kiss the ring of the padre whom ordered it, and even thank him for administering such a light punishment. The Englishman was horrified, and this in the late 1700s when English law also included severe corporal punishments. In his eyes, at least the convict being punished was not forced to kiss the hand of the man who ordered his punishment and thank him for it. The mission Indians were required to!

While I do not disagree that the Jesuit priests did carry around some church vestments with them while making the rounds from church to visita and so on, I doubt very highly that they would pack around ALL such "ornaments" for the risks of damage and loss to robbers or Indian attacks. Rather, trusted Indians residing at each place would have been entrusted with the safekeeping of the valuables of each church and visita in the absence of the priests. Hence we find that otherwise strange report of the return of the Jesuits to San Xavier del Bac just before the US civil war, it was the Indians that brought out all the valuable silver and gold ornaments to show their padres, and almost certainly the same Indians put these items back into hiding when the Confederate invasion came.

It surprises me that you would continue to lend such credence to Jesuit historians, men whom were and are sworn to defend their Order from even perceived slanders, when we have shown that they have as a group, lied by omission about the mining activities not to mention the vast wealth owned by their Order. The Jesuit apologists also lie by deception, as in the various Jesuit "colleges" scattered about Mexico, which were colleges in name only, in reality they were more like administrative centers. Yes some priests might learn a native language at one of these colleges or be sent there for rest, but they were not schools of learning as the name 'college' implies. If you doubt this, why not pull up a list of some of the graduates from these "colleges"? There ought to have been graduating classes yearly or at least every few years, yet there were no such graduations. They did not become actual schools as we think of schools until long after the Jesuits departed. Or we might point to the "ranches" listed on the assets of the Jesuits in Mexico which were not ranches at all but mills for processing ores. Deception, omission, "spin-doctoring" is the rule when reading our Jesuit historians.

By contrast, the treasure writers whom have been so vilified here on a treasure forum among treasure hunters, wrote of lost mines and treasures, which we have shown are not based on the imagination of said writers but upon numerous sources including the Royal Geographic Society, the US Bureau of Mines and the AZ Bureau of Mines. In most cases the origins of these "stories" can be traced to the descendants of the Indians of the missions run by the Jesuits and later Franciscans. So whom is more trustworthy, these treasure writers or our Jesuit historians?

I had posted that bit on father Faustino Gonzales on purpose, for when the Spanish Franciscans were ordered OUT of Mexico, somehow Gonzales was allowed to remain, and was a very wealthy man when he died. His story includes how he managed to convince the Papagos that they would not all die out, as they had been taught by the Jesuits, for revealing the rich mines in their territory. The placer gold field Gonzales was shown, led to a 'rush' of Spaniards for he made no effort to keep it a secret, and in a few short years the Indians rose in rebellion and drove them out. But Gonzales was rich so I doubt he cared.
-------------------------------------
I look forward to the book suggestion, though I am trying to stick to primary sources as much as possible, and have been avoiding modern Custer/Little Bighorn books so as to not end up being accused of plagiarism. If it has extracts from diaries and journals it could prove useful, thank you in advance.
Oroblanco
　
　
　
　
　

 

[Scorch]

"Thank you for posting this, very interesting.

I fear that there may be some misunderstanding in reading the article however - the Guevavi mission being referred to as "in Tumacacori National Park" is this one:
Los Santos Ángeles de Guevavi - Tumacácori National Historical Park (U.S. National Park Service)

Which IS inside the park boundaries but NOT at Tumacacori, it is some miles south. They are not referring to the mission and ruins you see at Tumacacori mission site.

I hope that I did not give the impression that the Franciscans were LESS ornate with their architecture, in fact their churches are what the tourists are coming to see like the beautiful example of San Xavier del Bac. If anything the Franciscan churches are much more ornate than the Jesuit structures which were adobe structures with flat roofs, though richly decorated with paintings and "ornaments" of silver and gold. ...

The Franciscans did not attempt to keep running so many missions as the Jesuits, which had at one point something like eighteen counting the visitas but not enough padres to allow even one per each. The Franciscans were also definitely involved in mining too, ...
Father Faustino Gonzales was a Franciscan priest.

I would not be too surprised if the original Jesuit mission church of Guevavi is found some 100 meters away from the site currently being touted as "the" mission church.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco "


Oroblanco,

Thanks for the clarification! I am bound to misunderstand some things sometimes, being so far removed from the subject, the article did say the property was City of Nogales. Anyway, thanks!

What if the Fransiscans found a lot of things that they just never let on that they found? They could raise a bunch of smoke about how incompetent the Jesuits had been as a 'screen' or 'cover' for the Jesuit riches they found and pocketed. ( Kind of like the bank robber who was caught before he actually stole any money, but the bank manager reported half a million missing. The robber went to jail for it, and the manager pocketed the half mil.)

On that note, it seems there has also been an impression/discussion on this thread that the Jesuits did not work to convert the Indians and educate them in 'Doctrine' etc. If the Fransiscans made those claims because they did not find Indian confirmants (? not sure ) who had memorized their catechism's in Spanish, I think that They can be answered by arguing 'Syncretism', for a couple of reasons:

- This quote from wikipedia seems to document a methodology of Syncretism: Jesuit methods ... " In a simplification, the 19th century Protestant historian Francis Parkman wrote: "Spanish civilization crushed the Indian; English civilization scorned and neglected him; French civilization embraced and cherished him."[3]:42

... To gain the Indians' confidence, the Jesuits drew parallels between Catholicism and Indian practices, making connections to the mystical dimension and symbolism of Catholicism (pictures, bells, incense, candlelight), giving out religious medals as amulets, and promoting the benefits of the cult of relics.[3]:43"

- I think Umberto Eco discusses and describes this practice in his book 'Foucault's Pendulum".

- My cousin spent 10 years in the Guatemalan jungles as a missionary kid, he says he can confirm from his experience that the Catholics there operated this way with those Indians. For instance, they might equate St. James with a local Indian god like Quetzalquotl. (?sp)

- The more I think about it, as this quote shows, this methodology may be one of the [smaller ] reasons for some of the treasure. Earlier in this thread there has been discussion that Loyola himself felt using such things helped 'make connections to the mystical dimension and symbolism of Catholicism'.

Couple other ideas, but need to come back later, my typing finger is having spasms,

Thanks !! ,

Scorch

 

[BurntBear]

Interesting reading. Just subscribing to the thread.

 

[deducer]

Because the Jesuits did not man many of their churches, they traveled with the items we consider "treasure" today.

From the travel reports of Joseph Och, S.J., 1755-1767:

The colossally large, silver hanging lamp inspires awe in all visitors. It is more than eight feet across and is very thick and massively decorated. The chains with finger-thick silver links are so heavy that when a ladder is leaned against them they do not move. A man can quite comfortably walk around the edge of the lamp. The decoration is rather ponderous, yet its manufacture by a goldsmith is supposed to have cost two thousand pesos.

Joe, are you saying that the Jesuits may have traveled with this 'colossally large silver hanging lamp'?

 

[cactusjumper]

From the travel reports of Joseph Och, S.J., 1755-1767:



Joe, are you saying that the Jesuits may have traveled with this 'colossally large silver hanging lamp'?

Deducer,

I have come to expect such misrepresentations coming from you, in your attempts to find any mistakes coming from Joe Ribaudo. Here is my, complete, original statement:

[No doubt the missions of northern Mexico were equally as ornate, which is what you have suggested previously. What you have just posted is more in line with the reality of the time.
Because the Jesuits did not man many of their churches, they traveled with the items we consider "treasure" today.]

The Jesuits who served the, more remote, churches and visitas could carry all they needed for services at those places on a single pack animal. Is it your opinion that every church or visita required a "colossally large silver hanging lamp" or are you just attempting to make some kind of obscure point?

The church Father Och was describing was very close to Mexico City, as I recall. It was quite wealthy, because of its patrons and location.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

Deducer,

I have come to expect such misrepresentations coming from you, in your attempts to find any mistakes coming from Joe Ribaudo. Here is my, complete, original statement:

[No doubt the missions of northern Mexico were equally as ornate, which is what you have suggested previously. What you have just posted is more in line with the reality of the time.
Because the Jesuits did not man many of their churches, they traveled with the items we consider "treasure" today.]

The Jesuits who served the, more remote, churches and visitas could carry all they needed for services at those places on a single pack animal. Is it your opinion that every church or visita required a "colossally large silver hanging lamp" or are you just attempting to make some kind of obscure point?

The church Father Och was describing was very close to Mexico City, as I recall. It was quite wealthy, because of its patrons and location.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

My point is: wouldn't this large silver hanging lamp also be considered "treasure" by us? Your definition of what constitutes "treasure" seems to be very selective.

You insist on using the phrase "Northern Mexico" but no such distinction existed back then.

You are of course, aware of the sophisticated mission trade system the Jesuits employed to great success. They would most certainly not have restricted themselves to "one pack animal" in the course of carrying out St. Ignatius' vision of how churches should be built.

 

[gollum]

Deducer,

Your quote left out the MOST telling evidence of all, that Joe can only make excuses for. HAHAHA After the quote you posted, Father Och SJ finished with this:

I omit mention of the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrances, and ciboria of finest gold. Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service............"

Right there, your exercise in futility is undone (Joe). If suchlike were found in proportion and abundance IN ALL CHURCHES, EVEN THOSE IN THE SMALLEST VILLAGES, why would a missionary father need to drag all his Church Adornments along every time he went to do a round of Baptisms and Marriages? The simple answer: THEY WOULDN'T. They may have carried things personal to themselves (like Holy Water, Breviary, etc). Adornments were considered part of the inventory of EACH MISSION! A priest could not move ANYTHING from one mission to another without the express consent of at least a Father Visitor. So Joe, the idea that a priest might drag along that silver statue of the Virgin Mary, Gold or Silver Chalices, and Platters, just doesn't hold any water. By the very rules and precepts of the Order, that would not have been possible.

...................and when it comes to the Jesuits being responsible for (and the main targets of) Indian Revolts, I am reminded of two words "chichimec dog"

Mike

 

[deducer]

Mike, you are correct on both counts.

 

[Oroblanco]

The visible wealth of Jesuit missions was legendary. Not to keep beating this dead horse, here are a couple of examples.

From a British magazine describing the Jesuit missions of Paraguay, (which included a part of Brazil and Uruguay at the time, including known gold districts)

The country of the mission is fruitful being watered with a great number of rivers which form islands in many places. They have plenty of timber and fruit trees excellent pulse bread corn flax indigo hemp cotton sugar piemento ipecacuanha galapa machecacuana a root they call lautrabanda and many other samples of great use in pharmacy particularly the herb Paraguay. Their Savanna's or meadow lands are full of horses mules cows bulls and flocks of sheep and more than all these their gold and silver mines are very considerable. It is true the good fathers will not <admit to> own it but there are too many proofs of it to leave any room for doubt. The people are good natured and quiet handy and laborious and are brought up to all sorts of trades. They are at present divided into 41 parishes from 1 to 10 leagues apart lying along the river of Paraguay and in every parish there is a Jesuit who has the supreme command and is obeyed with the exactest regard and awe. He punishes the least fault if he pleases with the utmost severity. The ordinary chastisement there is a certain number of lashes with a whip in proportion to the nature of the crime. The Caciques and others who are in the best posts of the government whether civil or military are not exempted from it but which is very particular, he that has been severely whipt comes and kisses the father's sleve acknowledges his fault and thanks him for the correction he has received. Thus doth one single man command 10,000 families more or less and it is certain there never was known a more submissive people or a more perfect subjection.

The same method of governing been introduced into all the parishes of the mission. But that is not all this submission is attended with such a contentment of mind which the Jesuits taken care to press upon the Indians in consideration of the felicities of life whereof they pretend to grant hares in this that the Indians are happy with bare food and raiment do not repine at the good fathers all the benefit of their labours which purpose they have large ware bouses in every parish whither the Indians are obliged to carry provisions stuffs and generally every thing without exception they not having the liberty so much as to eat a chicken of their own brood so that all those multitudes of Indians may justlv be reckoned as so many slaves to the Jesuits for their bread and that verse of Virgil cannot be more properly applied than to them:

Sic vos non vobis fertis aratra boves

Let it be considered at the same time what vast advantages those sovereign fathers must needs make of the labour of so many hands and what a trade they drive to all parts of the Indies with the above mentioned commodities particularly the herb Paraguay of which they vend an immense quantity there being none but what comes from the Jesuits country or frorn the province of Paraguay. That herb is drank almost like tea the Spaniards and Indians as well masters as slaves using it morning aud evening It is computed that the sale of that herb at first hand comes to above a million of crowns a year and the Jesuits have the best part of it which with the other commodities they vend to equal advantage and with the gold dust which the Indians go and gather up in the washes where the waters have been after their rivers are sunk below their banks again bring in to the Jesuits the revenue of a sovereign. For the forming a truer idea of this matter be it supposed that each family of Indians does not produce to the Jesuits above 50 livres a year all expences borne why even at this rate the general produce of 300,000 families will appear to amount to 5 millions of crowns, but this hint is sufficient to convince any one that they get a great deal more. However if you'll believe those good fathers their mission costs them a great deal of pains and brings them but little profit but this must be taken in the sense they generally speak the interpretation whereof is nunquam satis.
The gold and silver coined and uncoined which the Jesuits send by every opportunity into Europe, the magnificence of their churches where massy gold and silver are glittering on every side, and their considerable commerce which is known to all, the Spaniards oblige men to form a different judgment.

<from Account of the Jesuits in Paraguay, The Gentleman's and London Magazine: Or Monthly Chronologer, Sept. 1767, pp 530>
The m
assive earthquake which struck Lima in Peru brought to light some mention of the treasures of the many churches in that city, here in the words of a Jesuit present:

We have received from Lima and from Callao news the saddest character. On the 28th of October 1746 at half past ten in the evening an earthquake was experienced at Lima with so much violence that in less than three minutes the whole city has been overturned from top to bottom. <snip>

The same fate has befallen five magnificent churches belonging to the different Religious Orders. The greatest sufferers have been those of the Augustines and of the Fathers of Mercy. At our great College of Saint Paul the two towers of the church have been shattered from top to bottom while the arch of the sacristy and a portion of the Chapel of Saint Ignatius have fallen The damage has been almost equal in all the other churches of the city which are sixty four in number counting the public chapels and the hospitals What augments our regrets is that the grandeur and magnificence of the greater part of these edifices could be favorably compared with the most superb of this age. Most of these churches contained immense treasures either in pictures or in vases of gold and silver ornamented with pearls and precious stones which were rendered still more valuable by the beauty of the workmanship.

<snip>
<continuing on, telling of the tidal wave that destroyed the nearby port city of Callao on the same day as Lima,:>

The loss sustained at Callao is immense because the great store houses which supplied the city of Lima with all kinds of necessaries and which are the principal depots of its commerce happened then to be unusually crowded with grain tallow brandy cordage wood iron beans and all kinds of merchandise. Add to these the furniture and ornaments of the churches which all shone with gold and silver the arsenals and royal magazines which were full all these without counting the value of the houses and ruined edifices amount to an enormous sum and if to this one adds what was lost at Lima it would appear incredible to a person who was not acquainted the degree of opulence in this kingdom Calculations have been made that to restore matters to former condition would cost more than six hundred millions. <there was a Jesuit church in Callao>

　
Letter of Father Pierre Lozano of the Society of Jesus of the Province of Paraguay to Father Bruno Morales of the same Society at the Court of Madrid At Cordoue de Tucuman the 1st of March 1747, republished in Historical Scenes from the Old Jesuit Missions, By William Ingraham Kip, pp 360-370, published 1875

Now lest the accusation be made that the Jesuit missions of the northwest frontier of Mexico were SO far different in terms of wealth than those of S America or elsewhere, we may remember not only father Och's statements already posted but also father Nentvig SJ

All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well. There are also choruses of Indian singers, and masses are celebrated nearly every Sunday, on days of obligation and on the principal festival days with vespers the evening before when required. And there are processions and other ceremonies of the Holy Church which are accomplished with all possible dignity in order to present a visual display of the majesty of our Holy Religion to the neophytes so that they may remain impressed with its splendor and be attracted to it. Their disposition piae affectionis is to believe through their eyes rather than their ears.

<from Rudo Ensayo, pp 109, available online at The Missions and Government >

Nentvig echoes father Och also in justifying the visible wealth at rudely built, adobe missions in much the same terms too:

Although in these miserable times opposing opinions have arisen among critics, some praising and others condemning the care and expense of adorning and maintaining the temples with all possible dignity and decency for the reverence due to the Supreme Maker of all creation, I will not enter into a dispute over the subject, but I believe in what Our Mother, the Holy Roman Catholic Church, has always praised, approved, practised, and in a certain fashion glorified in the lives of its Saints. One learns from the lessons of St Ignatius of Loyola, father and founder of the Society of Jesus, when he says in praise of that Holy Patriarch, "Templorum nitor, catechismi traditio, concionum ac Sacramentorum frequentia ab ipso incrementum accepere."
[SUP]1[/SUP] I shall say that my heart rejoices with delight, and I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter any well adorned church. I must let the admiration argument prevail, a maiori ad minorem [from the highest to the lowest], for if we who are more rational than the Indians find incentive and devotion in temples that outshine others by their glowing adornments and will choose those in preference to the slovenly ones for Mass, Sermon, Confession, and Communion, how much more must the Indians be in need of such stimuli when nothing of

[page 109]
what they hear takes hold upon them unless it enters through their eyes with some sort of demonstration of the Supreme Creator about whom the preacher is speaking? So, when they see that the house of God is well ordered, clean, and beautifully adorned, they perceive at once the magnificence of its Owner and Ruler. I praise the missionaries of Sonora for imitating their great Father St. Ignatius.

Making use of their own perseverance and the meager labor of the Indians, the missionaries of Sonora have been able to maintain their churches properly, thanks to the Lord. And this is true in all Sonora and almost all the Pimería Alta. However, there are some visiting stations which up till now have not had the means to be restored after being ruined by time and the rebellious enemies.

<ibid, pp 108>

Will this suffice to support the contention that those humble adobe missions of the Jesuits, were richly endowed with "ornaments" of silver and gold? Ornaments which would not be moved from mission to visita to mission by the padres under ordinary circumstances. And yet, after the departure of the Jesuits in 1767, by 1768 when the Franciscans arrived to replace them, virtually none of that visible wealth was to be seen. There had been NO systematic search of the missions by the Spanish in Pimeria Alta, so where did that stuff go?
Please do continue,
Oroblanco

 

[doc-d]

Go to Quito and look at the Jesuit church there, seven tons of gold adorning it……..

Iglesia de la Compania and Its Tons of Gold Leaf



Gold-studded Iglesia de la Compania, the church on Garcia Moreno y Sucre, contains the remains of Santa Mariana de Jesus, the victim soul of Quito...the Lily of Quito. A whole chapel to the left of the main altar belongs to her and her devotion to Our Lady of Loretto.

If you wonder, why here? Why not in her home, the Carmen Alto Convent? Her devotion to Our Lady of Loretto brought her to rest here. Also, she lived the Franciscan life - not the Carmelite, but her boundless love included everyone.

A life-size statue of Santa Mariana reclines to the left of this enormous gold-guilded temple, which could easily be a cathedral and rivals those of Rome in its magnificence. Her guitar accompanied her here, until someone coldly stole it... now a replica of it rests in the museum in the back along with her original sewing box.

This most beautiful temple in Latin America blankets itself in gold leaf - seven tons. Everything but the pews and floor seems covered in it.

A 17th century marvel, its facade came transported from its construction site of Maynas east of Quito to reach completion here. The work, suspended for lack of funds until 1725, stretched its accomplishment to 1760.

The Jesuits, after arriving in 1586, set out to build the best church and school in America. Thanks to those who took over and corrected what seemed insurmountable contradictions, the desired outcome finally manifested itself, at least in regard to this holy place.

Old confessionals continue in use in all these churches, as in Iglesia La Compania in all its gold. A 5:00 AM procession marches on the 20th of every month in honor of La Dolorosa (Our Lady of Sorrows) through the streets from this spectacular colonial work of art.



The awesomeness mirrors the humility of those whose work and sweat built this castle for God, as gold in much of scripture represents humility.

 

[releventchair]

Joe is partly right when suggesting things were/could be carried compactly ish by single load.
Some items were required to be able to hold a mass,(Mass kit) or visit the sick. Some ,one for sure recovered by chance in 1802, an ostensorium, after hidden during an uprising was claimed made personally by a craftsman for a particular father.While not huge treasure, their value historically is considerable.
Monstrances

Mass Kits

 

[Scorch]

" ... Will this suffice to support the contention that those humble adobe missions of the Jesuits, were richly endowed with "ornaments" of silver and gold? Ornaments which would not be moved from mission to visita to mission by the padres under ordinary circumstances. And yet, after the departure of the Jesuits in 1767, by 1768 when the Franciscans arrived to replace them, virtually none of that visible wealth was to be seen. There had been NO systematic search of the missions by the Spanish in Pimeria Alta, so where did that stuff go? ..."


- That boggles my mind! thinking what it would take to so beautify a 'humble adobe mission' that it will outshine one of those Fransiscan churches! ... To my mind, even for a church, seven tons of gold leaf is a lot of surface area!

- Something no one seems to have considered in this thread so far is 'working' the basque angle. This may be an important distinction.

- Am wondering if you would place any significance on cases of basque Fransiscans following behind basque Jesuits in Pimeria Alta?

- If I remember correctly, there has been some discussion in this thread of German Jesuits constituting an 'inner ring' that, possibly, safeguarded treasure. It appears to me that the basques would be an equally culpable and capable network, which, like the Germans, would not necessarily feel deep and profound obligations to the Spanish crown. Reading seems to document a fairly formidable basque subculture in Sonora and Pimeria Alta. ...To the point that in places it may possibly have been the mainstream culture. (? not sure)

- Loyola himself was basque. They're fiercly independent. Just wondering what ya'll people think ... I think it was Oroblanco who pointed out that the "Retana" from earlier controversy in this thread, actually, was basque.

Thanks !! ,

Scorch

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

As I have said before, I'm not debating what took place with the Jesuits in South America, Japan or any of the other places they hung their hats. I'm also not offering an opinion on the different plots and intrigue's they may have been involved in. My own research, for the most part, has been focused on Mexico and in particular the northern portion of that country.

I don't rely on just Jesuit writings. I have given consideration to other sides of the debate including my good friend's Roy,Don Jose and Mike, as well as many others. It's possible that the Jesuits were involved in serious mining in Northern Mexico, but I have not seen any evidence that convinces me it happened.

I would be more than happy to see such hard evidence.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Extra coffee alert - long reply, I ask your indulgence.

Cactusjumper wrote

All,
As I have said before, I'm not debating what took place with the Jesuits in South America, Japan or any of the other places they hung their hats. I'm also not offering an opinion on the different plots and intrigue's they may have been involved in. My own research, for the most part, has been focused on Mexico and in particular the northern portion of that country.

I don't rely on just Jesuit writings. I have given consideration to other sides of the debate including my good friend's Roy,Don Jose and Mike, as well as many others. It's possible that the Jesuits were involved in serious mining in Northern Mexico, but I have not seen any evidence that convinces me it happened.

I would be more than happy to see such hard evidence.

How are the Jesuits of northern Mexico, a separate and distinct organization from the Jesuits of central Mexico? Or of the Jesuits in Spanish America? Are they not all a part of the Society of Jesus, with headquarters in Rome? Why do the Jesuits report to superiors in Mexico city, Spain and Rome, if they are not all one organization? I cannot see that the Jesuits of Sonora, or Sinaloa or Japan are distinct from the Jesuits elsewhere. What is the main purpose of the missions named The Rectorship of Santos Mártires del Japón? Is not the purpose of those missions to generate income to support Jesuit operations in Japan? Why was father Kino and others sent to explore northwest Sonora, trying to find a land route to California, where all of Baja was not just under the parochial care of Jesuit priests but actually ruled by them? Why did Spain wish to have sea ports in California at all, if not to support operations all the way across the Pacific in the Philippines? I can not see that they are disconnected at all, in fact quite the opposite seems to be the case.

I hate to keep re-posting some of this material but perhaps it was forgotten or missed in the lengthy discussion.

"In at least one documented case, the relationship between missionaries and miners in connection with food supply resulted in a singular activity on the part of the priests. Mining in sonora was not limited entirely to lay Spaniards. The Jesuits of Matape mission also engaged in the extraction and refining of silver ores from deposits near Tecoripa, not far from San Miguel Arcangel. According to the rules of the Jesuit order, priests were forbidden to own, operate, or even knowledge of mining. But apparently ownership of the mines in question had been signed over to the mission by a Spanish miner in payment for debts he incurred for supplies obtained from the padres. Moreover, the priests claimed that the mines belonged to the College of San Jose at Matape, not to the mission itself, and thus the superiors permitted continuation of the "forbidden" activity. During the late seventeenth century, annual proceeds from the Tecoripa mines under church management ranged from three thousand to twelve thousand pesos, a substantial windfall for the college and the missionaries. "

<Sonora: its geographical personality by Robert Cooper West, pp 62>

This happens to be the same area where African slaves were first introduced, and the mines so glaringly omitted by father Nentvig; is this the only case where a Jesuit college held title to mines? The college of San Jose and the silver mines of Tecoripa are in Sonora BTW.

　

"Some capital was also placed in non-agricultural enterprises. The most significant were the mines which provided the sole support of the college of Zacatecas.<snip>
This occurred, for example, in the case of the mines belonging to the college of Zacatecas. The assessors appraised them in 1773 and gave them a value of 365,000 pesos but because of renewed vigor in the mining industry in Zacatecas, the officials conducted a reappraisal in 1780 and increased their value to 730,000 pesos."

<The Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico, 1670-1767 Author(s): James D. Riley; Source: The Americas, Vol. 33, No. 2 (Oct., 1976), pp. 226-266 Published by: Catholic University of America Press on behalf of Academy of American Franciscan History pp 243, 245>

Did you catch it? Riley tells us that the college of Zacatecas sole source of income was its MINES. The mines mentioned by Mr West, are not the same mines - they belonged to the college of San Jose at Matape! This means there are at least two documented cases of Jesuit colleges which owned and operated MINES. Whom do we think was doing that labor, in those mines? Hired Spanish workers, or do you think perhaps it could have been the local Indios?

Just for good measure, I will add this - the author James Riley also stated, quote

"The Jesuits had three kinds of investments, urban rental property, interest bearing notes, and commercial ventures such as haciendas, mines, obrajes and retail stores which they exploited themselves."

<ibid, pp 242>

Father Polzer mentioned two instances where priests were "caught mining" and never gave any details on these instances; he adds that they were punished, which implies that this mining was for personal gain and not for the Order or Church.

Father Juan Nentvig's Rudo Ensayo describes Sonora circa 1760s period; he lists the Spanish mining settlements in their own chapter, and the Jesuit missions in a separate chapter. A number of these missions also list mines with them. An example:

From Tucson we must trek thirty leagues south to reach the royal presidio of Tubac where we can rest and then proceed to Tumacacori, one league south, and then to Calabazas;40 both are dependent missions of Guebavi,41 the main mission located at 32 degrees, 28 minutes latitude by 263 degrees, 12 minutes longitude. It is administered by Father Custodio Jimeno who is also in charge of the dependent missions. These are Sonoitac, ten leagues to the northeast; Calabazas, four leagues to the north; and Tumacacori, seven leagues to the northwest. There was a fourth mission: Aribaca, twelve leagues to the northwest, that was destroyed in the 1751 uprising. There are several silver mines and one gold mine in the vicinity of Guebavi, but they are not being worked.

Rudo Ensayo, pp 99, available online at:
The Jesuit Missions

Who or whom do you say was the owner of the several silver mines and one gold mine in the vicinity of Guevavi mission? If it were Spaniards, should it not be listed as owned by Spaniards, as Nentvig made it a point to specify when such was the case?

Do you recall father Segesser's letter in which he complained of not having as much funds as desired, in part due to the fact that he could not work the mines as he might, due to the danger of hostile Indians? Why would he have said that, if he had NO mines to work? Remember, Segesser was stationed at San Xavier del Bac, which he described as in the "silver mountains" and yet had little silverware for eating and cooking.

This recap was posted several years ago:


**The Jesuit California Mission Fund owned mines
The Jesuit college of Zacatecas owned mines
The Jesuit college of San Jose of Matape owned mines
The Jesuit college of Leon, purchased the Mina de los Remedios in 1731**
Father Polzer admitted of two instances in which priests had become involved in mining
The mining registry of Cananea reportedly shows mining started there by Jesuits
Pozos proudly displays their Jesuit furnaces and treasure blockhouse
Father Och told the story of his bit of placer copper mining
The Jesuits were in many instances the pioneer prospectors of the frontier regions
　

**<source Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico, cited in previous post>

I think we have posted a number of sources that attribute mines to the Jesuits, and stating the Jesuits were the pioneer miners of the southwest. Would it serve any purpose to repost that information? Lt. Sylvester Mowry stated there were over 100 named mines documented in what became Arizona, but a handful of these mines have ever been re-discovered. We no longer have those documents but perhaps they might turn up some day.

Mounds of smelter slag were found at Tumacacori and Guevavi, and slag is found in the very walls of the Franciscan structures at Tumacacori and San Xavier del Bac. The only source with any info on how much precious metals in that slag indicated that the original ore must have been very rich indeed for the waste material to contain enough values to make it pay to reprocess.

Then there is the Inventory of Tayopa, mentioned and discussed at length some time ago; this document was found by Henry O. Flipper, the first African American to graduate from the United States Military Academy at West Point in 1877, earning a commission as a 2nd lieutenant in the US Army. Some of our skeptics have dismissed the document as a fraud or a hoax, which is calling Flipper a liar and fraud. I am convinced that this document is indeed the genuine article, an actual Church record. Even the date on it points to a time period when such an inventory would likely have been done, possibly at the instigation of bishop Palafox, whose struggle with the Jesuits we have also debated at length some time ago.

In this document alone we have a fair proof of a massive treasure, one which we have no record of it ever being shipped out of Mexico nor accounting to the Spanish authorities. The silver and gold listed on this inventory had to come from silver and gold mines. In the region of Tayopa are a whole group of this very type of mines, and NO Spanish or Mexican record of Spanish or Mexican discovery and/or ownership of these mines. They were "of the mission" just as the mines mentioned by Nentvig are listed, would probably have been viewed as the property of the local Indians but under the legal guardianship of the Jesuit padres as that was their status, although not in those exact terms.

It is not known generally that the area embraced now within the limits of Santa Cruz County Arizona was the seat of the earliest mining known on the Pacific Slope of the United States but such is an historic fact. Without doubt the first and earliest mining in these regions was done by the Jesuits who founded a chain of missions in the Valley of the Santa Cruz River and farther south in Mexico.

Resources of Santa Cruz County, University of Arizona Bulletin, Arizona State Bureau of Mines Bulletin 29, Allen T. Bird pp 1. published 1916

Do you contend that Bird is mistaken, or deliberately publishing falsehoods?

I think that a large issue of our debate is in the term "major mining" which is interpreted differently by every person that sees that term. To some, major mining would mean something like the Lavender Pit at Bisbee, which of course the Jesuits never ran any mine on that scale. Yet the mine operations of the Jesuits certainly was more than negligable, just as their cattle ranching, sheep and horse raising, grain fields were certainly not on the scale of modern agriculture but large as any private enterprise of their day. The mining methods and technology available was or were primitive due to circumstances and that technologies had not yet advanced much beyond Medeival times. Even gunpowder for blasting would be costly and difficult to procure in many areas due to the remoteness of the frontiers.

The missions (all of them not just Jesuit ones) were expected to become self-supporting, and were supposed to become as much a part of Spanish state as any other, paying taxes and providing manpower and resources to the rest of the country over time. The king had issued laws and/or decrees forbidding the clergy from mining, yet there were huge loopholes in that the missions could be claimed as the "owners" of the mines, the cattle, the grain fields, and thus not owned by the padres. Even the official temporal accounting, did not have any requirement to list mines and their products so we find none listed - even though we know that some mines were owned OPENLY by the Order, with title in the names of colleges or missions. So while a priest might not own and operate a mine for his personal benefit, there were good excuses for the Order to have them and not raise so much as an eyebrow.

I do not know what kind of "hard" evidence you wish to see, to sway your opinion. It seems that you desire a type of proof that no longer exists, and our modern Jesuit historians have rather painted themselves into a proverbial corner so are not about to admit that they were mining in colonial Spanish America. More than one reported rediscovery of old Jesuit mines by earlier treasure hunters have claimed to have had the Jesuit documents which in some cases even helped to locate the mine, but as we are very much latecomers to this search, it is extremely unlikely to find any of that kind of documents. What remains to us are the type of church records that had no interest to earlier treasure hunters, namely marriage bans, baptisms etc. So I get the impression that we are at loggerheads for the evidence you wish to see, to refute our modern historians <many of whom have little or no interest in ancient mining regardless of who or whom was involved> is not going to turn up.

Unfortunately the written word fails to convey the sense of intended meanings, and can come across harsh or even insulting when that was not the intention. If anything posted seems offensive please accept my apologies for NO offense is intended here. This very lengthy discussion has been very interesting and educational for me, had thought I had a good handle on the topic but instead have had numerous revelations thanks to being forced to return to the books (and internet) which has been a good thing. I do wish that I could learn to say things in just a few words.

As to the Basques and/or Germans having a secret sub-group within the Jesuit Order, I have seen nothing to indicate any such cabal at work. If such a secret group existed, they have covered their tracks well. Such a group would have been operating counter to the Society of Jesus, in favor of themselves, which I have to say that everything I have seen indicates quite the opposite, the padres being dedicated body and soul to the Order and willing to undergo any kind of hardship or danger to further what they perceived as the goals of the Society and the Church firstly, and the state somewhere down that list.

Thank you for your time and patience, I hope that you all reading this have a very pleasant evening.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
　
　
　
　


　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　

 

[gollum]

 

[markmar]

Joe

If you want evidences , you will have to dig under these rocks . Are where I believe is the Virgin of Guadalupe deposit site . The region fits with the Virgin site from another version of Tumacacori map which have posted Crow in other thread .



But could be just a coincidence .

 

[markmar]

Another look to Crow's map symbol of the Virgin site , with what describes the " 3 " .



And now the mine site . With the red is the artificial dam which avoids the water to altered the site and flood the mine , and in the center could be recognized the shape which describes the Virgin region from other map version .



But this could be another coincidence .