Jesse James Artifact Found in SE Oklahoma. I need all the information I can get.

[Sides]

UPDATE

Please. As much info as possible. The metal scratches bright silver. Possibly Lead. It is heavy for its size as well. Dimensions below.

4in x 2 3/8in

1in wide varying slightly

100mm x 60mm

width slants from 22mm to 27mm

 

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[RGINN]

Sides, I remember when your Dad first posted about this, and cool to see some pics of it. Sorry, I still don't have any useful info about it to pass on.

 

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[eyemustdigtreasure]

Very, VERY cool...!
Note that Frank James' name is there, too...!
The letter N is backwards, and everything seems authentic, too...!
Hold onto this one - more research is definitely needed...!

 

[releventchair]

The year Jesse died , the Ames Monument was built in Wyoming.
Situated in a lonely area.
Maybe someone did something similar on a smaller scale representing the Jame's brothers?
(Ain't an active imagination something? L.o.l..)
https://trib.com/news/ames-monument/article_14a799a3-3ac1-519f-8345-4e71f385d779.html

 

[jeff of pa]

This pic is the side opposite the names. The top side is shown twice in those photo's, we still don't have the side directly opposite the Christmas Tree.

I'm Guessing he does have Both Sides Posted.
I'm guessing the "Christmas Tree" Is on both sides

 

[GoDeep]

I'm Guessing he does have Both Sides Posted.
I'm guessing the "Christmas Tree" Is on both sides

Yeah that's a good thought, I double checked and the pictures are both of the same side, so we still need the other side. It seems like the OP has left the building though, so not sure we'll get it.

 

[ARC]

Yeah that's a good thought, I double checked and the pictures are both of the same side, so we still need the other side. It seems like the OP has left the building though, so not sure we'll get it.

Perhaps the other side says...

"Made In China".

:P

 

[DCMatt]

I may as well throw my guess in. Somebody made a fake James brothers treasure "gold" bar just for fun or to fool someone.

I have to agree with this scenario.

I can TOTALLY see grandpa going to the shed and grabbing an old hunk of lead to make a Jesse & Frank James gold bar for the grandson's to play train robbers. I did a little research (very little) and it seems the biggest heist by the James gang was getting $25,000 cash and $30000 in gold from the Muncie, KS train robbery.

So if I'm a 10 y.o. boy at the turn-of-the-century and grandpa gives me a $30,000 "gold bar", I'm going to do what I think all robbers do with stolen gold - bury it.

It makes me wonder if the remains of $25,000 in home-made play money might have been in the hole where this bar was found.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

I have to agree with this scenario.

I can TOTALLY see grandpa going to the shed and grabbing an old hunk of lead to make a Jesse & Frank James gold bar for the grandson's to play train robbers. I did a little research (very little) and it seems the biggest heist by the James gang was getting $25,000 cash and $30000 in gold from the Muncie, KS train robbery.

So if I'm a 10 y.o. boy at the turn-of-the-century and grandpa gives me a $30,000 "gold bar", I'm going to do what I think all robbers do with stolen gold - bury it.

It makes me wonder if the remains of $25,000 in home-made play money might have been in the hole where this bar was found.

Why not make it look like an actual gold bar? What would all the fancy wiring on the top have to do with a play bar of gold? Interesting idea, but it’s not like any bar of gold I’ve ever seen.

 

[A2coins]

I dont know why it hasn't been taken to an expert of some sort after all these years I would have left skid Mark's on my way there lol

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Where do you find better experts than here? Seriously.

 

[chub]

Have you gone back and detected the site? Almost has a folk art air about it....
How deep was it?
How did your Dad find it?

Chub

 

[DCMatt]

Why not make it look like an actual gold bar? What would all the fancy wiring on the top have to do with a play bar of gold? Interesting idea, but it’s not like any bar of gold I’ve ever seen.

Because 120 years ago, little kids had good imaginations. A stick was a gun. A broom was a horse. The bushes were wild Indians... Those kids likely had never seen a gold bar, so grandpa said, "Look at this! $30,000! It has Jessie James name right on it!"

Kids today still have imaginations. I do a Civil War presentation for the 4th graders each year. When I first started, the school admin wouldn't let me bring my Enfield rifle onto the elementary school campus, so I used a long walking stick. The kids understood what it represented. Nobody ever said, "That's not a rifle." They got it. And we all marched into the imaginary First Battle of Manassas together...

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Because 120 years ago, little kids had good imaginations. A stick was a gun. A broom was a horse. The bushes were wild Indians... Those kids likely had never seen a gold bar, so grandpa said, "Look at this! $30,000! It has Jessie James name right on it!"

Kids today still have imaginations. I do a Civil War presentation for the 4th graders each year. When I first started, the school admin wouldn't let me bring my Enfield rifle onto the elementary school campus, so I used a long walking stick. The kids understood what it represented. Nobody ever said, "That's not a rifle." They got it. And we all marched into the imaginary First Battle of Manassas together...

I suppose that’s as plausible as anything offered up so far.

My dad used to play with plain old scrap blocks of wood and rocks!

 

[Fossils]

I’m guessing it’s probably some sort of contemporary fantasy or creative piece made by someone with a lot of time on their hands at the turn of the 19th century. In the late 1800s there were quite a few creative metalworkers involved in making souvenir “oddity” coins, many in the style of pine tree shillings, George Washington coppers, etc. I’d say that this find, although obviously not a coin, likely falls into a similar category as an art or fantasy piece.

 

[Sides]

I think his dad was a member here and may have posted it before gifting it to his son.

This is correct. As for the "E" sliding to the right, it was something my father and others had come to the conclusion of. An I can't be felt to the touch although there is a strangely large gap between the 2 letters much like the "ES" in Frank. I definitely am aware it could be nothing at all. I wanted to make sure and that's why I am here. So far, no one can really do anything further than speculate unless we can come up with photos of things that look similar. As of right now I've gotten a lot of information and I appreciate it a great deal but I'm essentially in the same boat as when I posted. It was found near things and based on info related to the outlaw. I have given everyone all the info i can about it. Idk what it is either.

 

[kingskid1611]

Doorstop

 

[crabstang44]

I'm Guessing he does have Both Sides Posted.
I'm guessing the "Christmas Tree" Is on both sides

I have seen the bottom. And it is blank. Just rough and porous. We have come to the conclusion that it mostly likely is a gift made by someone who only had some lead and a bit of copper to make something with . Given to a jessie and frank james. Whether it was the famous ones or not will probably never know.

 

[Red-Coat]

Your start position was: “I need all the information I can get” but getting information from you has been like pulling teeth. There will be questions you can’t answer (the interpretation of the numerals/date for example, which surely we must regard as a critical part of any solution for what it is) but there have been a lot of simple questions which you have ignored or evaded and basic information which you have not volunteered.

Material of Construction?
It appears to be lead with copper wire inlay, neither of which are actually confirmed and you don’t want to have any tests conducted on it. Fair enough if you don’t want to risk damaging it, but in the UK you can buy a twin-pack of 3M “Lead Check” swabs for £7.75 and I’d be amazed if you can’t get them in the US. You only need to swab a little dust off the surface to test, with no harm to the piece itself.

Is it solid?
You say it’s not a box and doesn’t open in that way, but that doesn’t mean it’s solid. You haven’t confirmed that it doesn’t rattle although your comments infer that it doesn’t. Since it has ‘seams’ and may have been poured in two halves (or multiple pourings) as has been suggested, you have no way of knowing whether something was inserted during the casting process (a coin, key or whatever for example), or if it has a void. A density calculation (see below) might help and an X-ray (as previously suggested) might tell you nothing at all, but surely is worth a try to see if anything shows up.

Size?
You say it’s 100 x 60mm with a width between 22 -27mm. But is the 100mm measurement the actual height from centre of the base to the apex or measured on the diagonal from corner to corner? You were also asked how many pieces the same size would fit into a circle but didn’t answer. You could easily establish this by repeatedly tracing it onto a piece of paper.

Weight?
Despite being asked several times, the only answer you have given is that it’s “heavy for its size”. An exact weight (with confirmation of the nature of the exact dimensions as above) would enable a calculation on its density and potentially help determine its composition or construction. Why don’t you want to provide this information? It might also be relevant if the piece has been made to an exact weight in terms of number of ounces.

The other face?
You have consistently avoided showing it to us, despite numerous asks. Some are calling it the back and some calling it the bottom but – just to be clear – what is being asked for is a picture of flipside to the face that has the ‘copper’ decoration. If it’s completely blank to the extent that it’s of no relevance then why don’t you just say so? Or is there some other reason why you don’t want to show it to us? If so, please at least give some indication of why, even if you still won’t show us. Are there some additional marks or letters that you think might be a code or something like that? I’m sure we’d understand if you didn’t want to show it for that reason, but you could at least offer an explanation.

Surface?
It was suggested that you look using a loupe to see it there is any sign that it was once painted, but you ignored the suggestion, or at least didn’t answer the question.

Find environment?
You say your father ‘unearthed this in a wooded area’ but have told us nothing about the actual environment in which it was buried, nor how long ago he found it. Was it wrapped in anything or just bare in the soil? Presumably not dry soil if in a wooded area. What is the explanation for the lack of corrosion on the ‘copper’ versus the corrosion of the ‘lead’. Has someone polished up the ‘copper’?

You’re hoping someone can provide “photos of things that look similar”. I would think the chances of that are between slim and none. And Slim left town. Surely this is going to be a one-off hand-crafted piece with no similar examples from elsewhere. Unless you believe it’s a slice from a bigger round ‘pie’ and the other matching slices are kicking around somewhere. That doesn’t seem very probable and surely, if any of them had turned up, someone would have been asking about them.


EDIT: Just seen @crabstang44's reply, made while I was typing... so the above may no longer be relevant.

 

[crabstang44]

The bottom had been drilled through some. Does not appear to be hollow. Seems completely solid. A nice old relic. Maybe it means something or points to some treasure but think it's just a cool handmade gift. Probably nothing else like it. This is just my opinion after seeing many pictures not shown up here and lots of conversations with the OP

 

[Fossils]

Your start position was: “I need all the information I can get” but getting information from you has been like pulling teeth. There will be questions you can’t answer (the interpretation of the numerals/date for example, which surely we must regard as a critical part of any solution for what it is) but there have been a lot of simple questions which you have ignored or evaded and basic information which you have not volunteered.

I completely agree. Members who want to help won't be able to come to the best judgement possible about the piece if they can't see full pictures or get a good background story. Second hand information from members who have seen things "not shown here" just isn't going to cut it.