Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[Oroblanco]

deducer

They threw the tailings about 400 yards afar , high on a mountainside which is not in view from the main surrounding canyons .
When they were mining only winter season and had to go afar from that region in the summer time , I believe some hidding tactics took place at that time . Without claims records , the jumps would been a visible risk .
Unless they acted under a gov protection or a royal land grant .

I realize that this post was intended for our mutual amigo Deducer, but I am curious about your statement which I put in bold. What has led you to conclude that distance and placement for the tailings? Thank you in advance.

 

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[markmar]

I realize that this post was intended for our mutual amigo Deducer, but I am curious about your statement which I put in bold. What has led you to conclude that distance and placement for the tailings? Thank you in advance.

The tailings location .

 

[deducer]

deducer

They threw the tailings about 400 yards afar , high on a mountainside which is not in view from the main surrounding canyons .
When they were mining only winter season and had to go afar from that region in the summer time , I believe some hidding tactics took place at that time . Without claims records , the jumps would been a visible risk .
Unless they acted under a gov protection or a royal land grant .

Hi Marius,

From the various accounts I have read, including the Syn Doad manuscript which is as detailed an account as I've ever come across, Miguel Peralta (if it really was him) comes across as a pretty smart and shrewd person. He knew his only strength as far as foraying a considerable distance into dangerous territory would be in numbers, but he also knew that would work against him. Of the hundred or so men he had with him, he knew that a few would be dumb enough to try to go back on their own, and at another time, to try and mine the various, very rich chimney deposits concentrated in a relatively small area for their own profits.

So he did several clever things, and one was to rebury the chimney deposits with considerable man-force, so that if a small group returned of their own accord, they would have to expend considerable labor to uncover these chimneys. The other was to intentionally spread rich ore tailings all over the area, evenly, so anyone coming across this area, whether accidentally or intentionally, would waste their time picking up these tailings instead of going for the bigger prizes. More importantly, spreading the rich tailings made it impossible for anyone else to trace the origins of the chimney deposits.

So I believe that the only reason Waltz had access to one of the chimneys as well as the stashed ore is because of the massacre. The massacre froze an ongoing operation right there and then, as they clearly had no time to conceal the mines. I am assuming his chimney was the one the Apaches didn't bother concealing because it was "higher up and further away" and they didn't think anyone would find it.

Miguel was neither acting under government protection or on a royal grant, but was on his own. The territory they were entering was increasingly hostile, not just because of the Apache, but because it was becoming a hot dispute that would lead to the Mexican-American war.

How Miguel came to learn of the Superstition mountains and what was contained within, is a very interesting story for another time. It was supposedly the result of an exchange of favors originating at a certain church in Arizpe that resulted in him being led there by a certain Catholic priest whose name I came across, but at this point still am unable to independently confirm, so that's ongoing research for me. I enjoy doing this sort of detective work, tremendously.

 

[deducer]

As with your "mormon stope" theory, it helps to follow and understand as much of the known history as possible.
That website suffered a dns hack a few years ago and many prior discussions were lost or corrupted.
Some were able to be recovered by admin., but chronological dates and most of the original poster's ID's were not.
What was recovered, was re-posted using the generic handle "count" and that "1969" date as a "common" to all of them.
"Ron" was used where admin knew that Ron Feldman was the original poster.......was his website after all.
For those of us involved prior to the hack, it makes it easier to follow the threads and know who originally made the posts.

It was tedious for me to work through those original posts when every other sentence has a <br> (paragraph indent) or &quot.

 

[Cubfan64]

It was tedious for me to work through those original posts when every other sentence has a <br> (paragraph indent) or &quot.

Yeah it's a real shame that it got so messed up in the archives - there's lots of good information there but really tough to wade through

 

[markmar]

Hi Marius,

From the various accounts I have read, including the Syn Doad manuscript which is as detailed an account as I've ever come across, Miguel Peralta (if it really was him) comes across as a pretty smart and shrewd person. He knew his only strength as far as foraying a considerable distance into dangerous territory would be in numbers, but he also knew that would work against him. Of the hundred or so men he had with him, he knew that a few would be dumb enough to try to go back on their own, and at another time, to try and mine the various, very rich chimney deposits concentrated in a relatively small area for their own profits.

So he did several clever things, and one was to rebury the chimney deposits with considerable man-force, so that if a small group returned of their own accord, they would have to expend considerable labor to uncover these chimneys. The other was to intentionally spread rich ore tailings all over the area, evenly, so anyone coming across this area, whether accidentally or intentionally, would waste their time picking up these tailings instead of going for the bigger prizes. More importantly, spreading the rich tailings made it impossible for anyone else to trace the origins of the chimney deposits.

So I believe that the only reason Waltz had access to one of the chimneys as well as the stashed ore is because of the massacre. The massacre froze an ongoing operation right there and then, as they clearly had no time to conceal the mines. I am assuming his chimney was the one the Apaches didn't bother concealing because it was "higher up and further away" and they didn't think anyone would find it.

Miguel was neither acting under government protection or on a royal grant, but was on his own. The territory they were entering was increasingly hostile, not just because of the Apache, but because it was becoming a hot dispute that would lead to the Mexican-American war.

How Miguel came to learn of the Superstition mountains and what was contained within, is a very interesting story for another time. It was supposedly the result of an exchange of favors originating at a certain church in Arizpe that resulted in him being led there by a certain Catholic priest whose name I came across, but at this point still am unable to independently confirm, so that's ongoing research for me. I enjoy doing this sort of detective work, tremendously.

deducer

Your story seems to be another version of the LDM site . Also some details " are not sticking " IMO . And these are :

1 - Why to fill in the chimneys , practice that would work against Peraltas like would work against the " jump in " peons . In that era like today , the time was money .

2 - Why to leave around rich in gold ore tailings , that would born suspicions and would start an attempt to discover the source of those tailings , when they could threw the useless tailings afar in a place that would been hard to be discovered and if discovered to be not easy to recognize from what type of diggings the tailings were produced .
Also , in none account to this day was stated how rich in ore tailings were found around or have led anyone in that area . What John Reed stated about the rich tailings near the shaft/placer mine ( the shaft is few feet from the dry wash bottom ) , were the tailings left by the Mexicans ( maybe Peraltas ex peons or ex peons relatives ) who worked the mine at the time when John Reed and his father were there , and at the time Waltz found the mine . Those last Mexicans who worked the shaft in Waltz era , didn't bother to hide the mine or the tailings , like the clue says : " From over the top of a low ridge you could see down the far side where there was a small clearing, an open hole and a mine dump. (Herman Petrasch) " .

And if Peraltas have heard about the Superstitions Mountains to have rich mines and other stuff , and how that info led them there , i believe is truth . But I don't believe they knew the exact spot of that location from the beginning .. To find it , they have started prospecting from the Salt River into the mountains , and after many years , they were able to discover the old diggings , but not all at all . The fact how Peraltas named the remains of the Santa Fe church as Caverna con Casa and Casa Caverna , this make me think how they didn't know what the ruins represented and how didn't find what they were looking for and what would been the reason of their quest ( if this was ).

 

[wrmickel1]

deducer

Your story seems to be another version of the Peraltas named the remains of the Santa Fe church as Caverna con Casa and Casa Caverna , this make me think how they didn't know what the ruins represented and how didn't find what they were looking for and what would been the reason of their quest ( if this was ).

Markmar,

Cavern with House is the translation and it's marked with the Horse From Santa Fe.
and if you were in the states I'd walk you up to the front door of the cavern with house.

babymick1 the cavern is Marked with a Horse, The horse from Santa Fe

 

[wrmickel1]

Markmar

The Cavern with house, is not the objective in your Journey, It's provides you with all you need to survive, Grass for your
Horse, shelter, water, actually two sources of water, One there and the other at your objective. The peril maps is just a piece made by yet another trickster in the mess. It's not real.

babymick1

 

[somehiker]

Markmar,

Cavern with House is the translation and it's marked with the Horse From Santa Fe.
and if you were in the states I'd walk you up to the front door of the cavern with house.

babymick1 the cavern is Marked with a Horse, The horse from Santa Fe

So Mick....you got a picture of the house ?

So we know which one of you guys to send the trophy to.....

 

[wrmickel1]

Markmar

So here's the thing, Joe posted a link,what 1885. The guy described the gold saying you hit the ore with a hammer and the gold falls out. Exactly what I said about the ore I found. Yet we're to believe The Matchbox Theory, So there's no ore
to match The Dutchman's Ore to, But there is those clues, There's a peak to the south witch appears to have a hole in it.
(Appears to have a hole in it.) So why say it that way why not just say a Arch. Because south of the mine is two opposing
peaks that cross at the top but do appear as one with a hole in it. Four peaks look like one, he's not south of the peak. He's close to the peaks witch just look like one. With a jagged top. Run up a small saddle to see Weavers needle. Yeah it there
and the army trail, It's the Fort and the military road that lead to it. Now add in the jewels I find in the stream beds, Peridot,Ant hill red garnets and Topaz And purple ones. I think you get where I'm at.

Now do I got enough compelling evidence to topple the long standing Myth created around the ledgen, Well I'm soon gonna find out.

babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

So Mick....you got a picture of the house ?

So we know which one of you guys to send the trophy to.....

View attachment 1536289

Yes, I want that. Prestige World Wide!

 

[wrmickel1]

Somehiker

Yes I do got pic's, And I gave the start to a fellow Dutch hunter and a vag discretion of how it works, I'll wait to see if he meets me at the end of the Trail. With no help from me, He gets there that will put the nay Sayers to rest.

Discretion is not a misspelling, like I said no help from me.

lets wait

babymick1

 

[somehiker]

Somehiker

Yes I do got pic's, And I gave the start to a fellow Dutch hunter and a vag discretion of how it works, I'll wait to see if he meets me at the end of the Trail. With no help from me, He gets there that will put the nay Sayers to rest.

Discretion is not a misspelling, like I said no help from me.

lets wait

babymick1

Actually Mick, I think Joe has given up on you showing up to collect that $100 bet you made with him what, two years ago when you were claiming to have the stones all figgured out. We's all still waitin to see THAT first.
BTW, how'd you manage to get that ore home, without all that loose "gold" fallin out of it ??

 

[azdave35]

Actually Mick, I think Joe has given up on you showing up to collect that $100 bet you made with him what, two years ago when you were claiming to have the stones all figgured out. We's all still waitin to see THAT first.
BTW, how'd you manage to get that ore home, without all that loose "gold" fallin out of it ??

photoshop...lol

 

[Oroblanco]

Oroblanco mi amigo,


I know you like that blood and guts Cavalry stuff…here is a link to Lonnie Underhill’s Master’s thesis on the First Arizona Volunteers…

Forgot to say THANK YOU Jim! I owe you one!

 

[somehiker]

photoshop...lol

Maybe he just kinda stuffed it all back into that crack, so's he could take the picture.....ya know ?

 

[markmar]

Markmar

The Cavern with house, is not the objective in your Journey, It's provides you with all you need to survive, Grass for your
Horse, shelter, water, actually two sources of water, One there and the other at your objective. The peril maps is just a piece made by yet another trickster in the mess. It's not real.

babymick1

If you say how the Casa Caverna is not the objective of the journey , then you have not understood what we are talking about and what the Waltz clue means .
The practice that what we can't find is a hoax , starts to tires me so much . Seems how back then , many people haven't anything to do but only creating fake maps . And this habit stopped within a miracle since 20th century .

 

[markmar]

Markmar

So here's the thing, Joe posted a link,what 1885. The guy described the gold saying you hit the ore with a hammer and the gold falls out. Exactly what I said about the ore I found. Yet we're to believe The Matchbox Theory, So there's no ore
to match The Dutchman's Ore to, But there is those clues, There's a peak to the south witch appears to have a hole in it.
(Appears to have a hole in it.) So why say it that way why not just say a Arch. Because south of the mine is two opposing
peaks that cross at the top but do appear as one with a hole in it. Four peaks look like one, he's not south of the peak. He's close to the peaks witch just look like one. With a jagged top. Run up a small saddle to see Weavers needle. Yeah it there
and the army trail, It's the Fort and the military road that lead to it. Now add in the jewels I find in the stream beds, Peridot,Ant hill red garnets and Topaz And purple ones. I think you get where I'm at.

Now do I got enough compelling evidence to topple the long standing Myth created around the ledgen, Well I'm soon gonna find out.

babymick1

Mickelson

From your description , I feel you are just few feet from your search's objective . But I still don't understand what is your objective .

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Hi Marius,

From the various accounts I have read, including the Syn Doad manuscript .......
..................<SNIP>..........................................................
How Miguel came to learn of the Superstition mountains and what was contained within, is a very interesting story for another time. It was supposedly the result of an exchange of favors originating at a certain church in Arizpe that resulted in him being led there by a certain Catholic priest whose name I came across, but at this point still am unable to independently confirm, so that's ongoing research for me. I enjoy doing this sort of detective work, tremendously.

Deducer, what is Syn Doad? Is it someone's name in Gaelic? Interesting post! I hope your source agrees to let you post more about it. Best, Jim

 

[wrmickel1]

If you say how the Casa Caverna is not the objective of the journey , then you have not understood what we are talking about and what the Waltz clue means .
The practice that what we can't find is a hoax , starts to tires me so much . Seems how back then , many people haven't anything to do but only creating fake maps . And this habit stopped within a miracle since 20th century .

Fully understand what you and Deducer are talking a bout, Deducer I thank understands. It's a large mining operation
which encludes The mines, water crushing smelting shelter ect.

House Cavern, Keep you safe from attacks ect.
Can't even shoot a bullet or a arrow in to it, the Cavern is cut on a curve and the house is in the back
after the curve.

babymick1