Is pump for highbanker considered a “suction dredge”?

[AdamGoldCA]

Hi Team,

Feel free to point me to an existing post if this has already been answered.

I’m planning to operate a highbanker on a claim here in CA using a gas powered water pump to supply water to it from a stream. All pay dirt will be shoveled in by hand.

CA does not allow “suction dredging” without a permit.

Does suctioning and using water only (no dirt) using a pump fall under the definition of “suction dredging “?

In my mind suction dredging is vacuuming material to run, but looking for clarification so I am not hit with any problems when operating on the claim.

Thx in advance!

 

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[vpnavy]

Is pump for highbanker considered a “suction dredge”?

I searched Google and found...

AI Overview​

While a highbanker is a gold mining tool that uses water to wash away dirt and gravel, it's not typically considered a "suction dredge", which uses a suction hose to draw up material from underwater. However, some highbanker/dredge combos exist, offering both functions...

 

[Bodfish Mike]

Follow link for some info.
Sure wish Clay Digging was still on this site he was the best for questions like this
Cheers Mike
https://www.waterboards.ca.gov/water_issues/programs/npdes/suction_dredge_mining.html

 

[AdamGoldCA]

Thx Mike...

The official definition is:

California Water Code section 13172.5.(a) defines suction dredge mining as:
"the use of a mechanized or motorized system for removing or assisting in the removal of, or the processing of, material from the bed, bank, or channel of a river, stream, or lake in order to recover minerals."

I've put out emails requesting clarification to the CA Water Board and CA Dept Fish and Wildlife.

The only potential hang up could be around "the processing of" contained within the definition, and any concerns about the outflow of the highbanker back into the stream.

 

[Assembler]

Thx Mike...

The official definition is:

California Water Code section 13172.5.(a) defines suction dredge mining as:
"the use of a mechanized or motorized system for removing or assisting in the removal of, or the processing of, material from the bed, bank, or channel of a river, stream, or lake in order to recover minerals."

I've put out emails requesting clarification to the CA Water Board and CA Dept Fish and Wildlife.

The only potential hang up could be around "the processing of" contained within the definition, and any concerns about the outflow of the highbanker back into the stream.

Perhaps California has wording like Oregon:

468.946 Unlawful water pollution in the first degree.

knowingly discharges, places or causes to be placed any waste into the waters of the state or in a location where the waste is likely to escape or be carried into the waters of the state and:

Perhaps the important question is there use of settling ponds even with the use of a highbanker?

 

[Assembler]

As a follow up question:
Since most of the rock you will be "Processing" will just be waste rock it is how the water is being handled that will be a 'good practice' of settling out the fine plume waste that is really the issue?

After all you are just moving the rock to a different place within the high water mark of the stream with many high sluice box set ups. The stream may even be dry most of the year.

 

[Phil]

The issue is not using a pump to get water to your highbanker.

The issue is discharging water from the highbanker back into the stream, which requires a discharge permit.

However, there is a loophole.......................Murder somebody you don't like, and keep the body next to the highbanker. That way, if the feds catch you, the prison sentence for murder will be far less than getting caught discharging water into a stream without a permit.

Sadly, I'm joking, but you live in California so there is some truth to it.

 

[Assembler]

The issue is not using a pump to get water to your highbanker.

The issue is discharging water from the highbanker back into the stream, which requires a discharge permit.

However, there is a loophole.......................Murder somebody you don't like, and keep the body next to the highbanker. That way, if the feds catch you, the prison sentence for murder will be far less than getting caught discharging water into a stream without a permit.

Sadly, I'm joking, but you live in California so there is some truth to it.

Keeping it on the lighter side you have to be careful with the murdered body you point out as the following likely applies..........lol

“Pollution” or “water pollution” means such alteration of the physical, chemical or biological properties of any waters of the state, including change in temperature, taste, color, turbidity, silt or odor of the waters, or such discharge of any liquid,

On the more serious side you may find that the words and phrases such as "Discharge", "Discharge of any liquid" is not defined within the "Water Code".
You will find a definition for the phrase "Waters of the State" for sure.
Something to think about.

 

[russau]

I'd say the best way to resolve this is to use a recirculating system AWAY from the water source . set up your high banker with a tub or two in series to help settle the mud .and put your water pump into the last tub . This way you wont be discharging any water back into the stream and be compliant with the Staes laws (if that is anyway possible in California ) Other than that you'll get cited in my opinion ! Good Luck !

 

[Assembler]

I'd say the best way to resolve this is to use a recirculating system AWAY from the water source . set up your high banker with a tub or two in series to help settle the mud .and put your water pump into the last tub . This way you wont be discharging any water back into the stream and be compliant with the Staes laws (if that is anyway possible in California ) Other than that you'll get cited in my opinion ! Good Luck !

The recirculating system is excellent for a smaller batch and with settling time for the silt / mud to happen or add a sand filter for a better run cycle is great. One shall return the same water to the same drainage system that it came from.

 

[AdamGoldCA]

 

[Assembler]

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Can a letter be sent to the 'Water board' asking about the issue of "Silt" containment made for the purpose of clarity of the water (Good practice) in the same drainage system?

Perhaps any mining actives that involves water above xx amount of gallons per hour is the issue?

 

[Assembler]

There is likely an issue of "Silt" plume in the uncontained water not the actual process for extraction of minerals is the point.

 

[Assembler]

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Fish and Game do not define what a "Suction dredge" is.

The purposed activity is "Mining".
Both the Office of Fish and Game as well as Water control engineer do not determine what a "Mine" is.
Perhaps the uncontained water with a given amounts of "Silt" in it is the key??
Perhaps the pump used exceeding a given amount of water is the key??
Perhaps the lack of the use of settling ponds is the key?
Perhaps "Watercraft" is the issue??

The Legislative body with counsel make the definitions.

 

[Assembler]

I'd say the best way to resolve this is to use a recirculating system AWAY from the water source . set up your high banker with a tub or two in series to help settle the mud .and put your water pump into the last tub . This way you wont be discharging any water back into the stream and be compliant with the Staes laws (if that is anyway possible in California ) Other than that you'll get cited in my opinion ! Good Luck !

The problem with this approach is it is possible to be cited for water being put into another drainage when the process is away from the water source.
In Oregon there have been a number of people cited for having a 'Fire pond' that can drain into another drainage that was an issue for a example.

Perhaps a recirculating system given time for settling out the "Silt" and then draining the clear water should avoid the issue.

 

[tamrock]

Follow link for some info.
Sure wish Clay Digging was still on this site he was the best for questions like this
Cheers Mike
https://www.waterboards.ca.gov/water_issues/programs/npdes/suction_dredge_mining.html

What happened C Digging's ?

 

[Assembler]

What happened C Digging's ?

Well we should not talk about it.

The citing agencies will have a protocol or policy for citing "Within the State".

 

[arizau]

What happened C Digging's ?

On timeout for past couple of months.

 

[Bodfish Mike]

What happened C Digging's ?

I think he got put in Treasurenet Jail - Or he got fed up with someone on here.
Hope he gets out and comes back and just ignores THAT GUY as he is a great sources of info and knowledge.
Cheers Mike

 

[Assembler]

I think he got put in Treasurenet Jail - Or he got fed up with someone on here.
Hope he gets out and comes back and just ignores THAT GUY as he is a great sources of info and knowledge.
Cheers Mike

That is just part of having a good conversation. Anyone can contribute information that can be check on. Sharing is what the forum is for.