IRS Silver Bar?

[kalebdad]

Need Help Identifying and Putting a value on this for a friend.

This bar measures 1" x 2 1/16 x 1/4"
Says U.S. intr revenue with a picture of a scale

Reads 4.02oz and says G.024 S.972

It has he initials J.C. on the back

Any information would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

JD

 

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[doublet2a]

A better pic would be a good thing

Tim

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Of course a photo cannot show whether the bar is made of silver or some other metal. But I can say with confidence that the markings are fake. Three reasons:
1- The US Internal Revenue Service has never made nor issued such bars.
2- The US Internal Revenue Service is never abbreviated "Intr".
3- That bar's size-measurement (1"-wide, 2-&1/16"-long, 1/4"-thick) is the typical size for a ONE-ounce metal bar. But the marking on it says it weighs 4.02 ounces. That is physically (and molecularly) impossible, even if the bar was made of a super-heavy metal like gold, lead, or uranium.
4- The number markings on that bar are not American-style numbers, but instead are European-style numbers. In particular, note the very-curly top of the number 2 on it.

Regarding reason #4: Serious collectors are aware that many metal FAKE "collectibles" have been being manufactured in Eastern European countries during the two decades after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Another major source of fakes is Pakistan. I do not know whether those "European-style" numbers are used in Pakistan or not.

All of that being said... the bar itself might indeed be silver. But in view of the fake markings, I'd get the metal tested to discover its actual identity.

Meanwhile, for the purpose of additional Education, here are photos of two different examples of 100%-definite-fake "Confederate" silver bars. They were found for sale on Ebay, of course.

Note the non-American-style number 3 in the "serial number" on them.

Free friendly advice: In actual historical fact, Confederate manufacturers almost NEVER put a year-date on the METAL objects they produced. So, if you see a "Confederate" sword or knife or ID-disc (soldier's "dogtag") or other metal object, the odds are literally 99.9% that the marking (and probably also the object itself) is a fake.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

the tiny pic hurts my eyes

 

[kalebdad]

Several versions of the Internal Revenue stamp are known. The standardized version was round, reading U.S. INTR. REVENUE*, around a picture of a pair of scales above a shield. This appears on a Harvey Harris bar photographed in the Numismatist in 1911, well before the forger got to work (Adams 1911), so we may be confident of the authenticity of the bar and the Internal Revenue stamp.

This is what I got from another forum on Silver. It was from a article the guy posted??

 

[creskol]

Several versions of the Internal Revenue stamp are known. The standardized version was round, reading U.S. INTR. REVENUE*, around a picture of a pair of scales above a shield. This appears on a Harvey Harris bar photographed in the Numismatist in 1911, well before the forger got to work (Adams 1911), so we may be confident of the authenticity of the bar and the Internal Revenue stamp.

This is what I got from another forum on Silver. It was from a article the guy posted??

Can you site your reference please? Thanks.

 

[cw0909]

found this stuff,ive read some and so far i havent found a reference
to the mint or irs stamp on bars yet, im not saying the mint,or irs
didnt,just that ive not found a record of that,and i havent read all the
material listed yet,so something may be in it for the J.C. stamp and
the irs stamp,if i get time later ill read it all

Harvey Harris
http://www.holabird.org/HKA-Spring2008-Cat1/Cal02.html

Western Precious Metal Ingots: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
http://www.holabird.org/americana2002/IngotPaper.pdf

How the West was Faked:
False Western Gold Bars and other Forgeries
John M. Kleeberg
http://www.cawa.fr/IMG/pdf/how.pdf

no online img of doc or img that i could find
records for the us mint and if you ever want to order or go view
the docs here are the source catalog # and locations

Records of the U.S. Mint
(Record Group 104)
1792-1994
http://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/104.html#104.3

 

[randazzo1]

It's possible that the IRS stamp is meant to indicate that the bar was received by the IRS, rather than issued by the IRS. People used to be able to pay taxes and other government debts in silver. In fact, some states have tried in recent years to go back to letting citizens pay taxes in silver.

Or maybe it was seized by treasury agents - but then you would think it would be marked "Treasury" or simply "U.S. Govt" rather than IRS.

Cool piece regardless. I would have bought it if I saw it at a garage sale.

That's my two cents - and its free!

 

[cw0909]

if that bar is a real bar/ingot,maybe one of the folks in the articles i posted,
can help with the bar/ingot authenticity,sorry im not an expert,so couldnt help
you more,just what i could glean from the net,like i said get it checked out

pg37-pg discusses the use of the Internal Revenue stamp
pg 37,under heading letter K,3rd par
all the posted info in this post is from
http://www.cawa.fr/IMG/pdf/how.pdf

Several versions of the Internal Revenue stamp are known. The standardized
version was round, reading U.S. INTR. REVENUE*, around a picture of a pair of scales
above a shield. This appears on a Harvey Harris bar photographed in the Numismatist in
1911, well before the forger got to work (Adams 1911), so we may be confident of the
authenticity of the bar and the Internal Revenue stamp.

yours has no shield,so prob not a Harvey Harris bar,at least none that i can see
yours doesnt appear to have a tax stamp
and in all that reading,i could not find a reference to a jc

pg48 part XI. Determining the authenticity of the silver bars.
A. Genuine Silver Bars.
Special economic circumstances helped silver bars survive in the nineteenth
century. The silver bars were stamped at a price of $1.2929 an ounce, but the free market
price of silver collapsed from 1873 to 1900. The bars were no longer worth what they
were stamped – and they were not worth melting. Since most countries used the gold
standard, the value of gold did not move. This is why it is not surprising that genuine
silver bars have survived, whereas genuine gold bars have not survived in large numbers,
except for those recovered from the Central America

pg59 lists GENUINE SILVER BARS
pg63 SILVER BARS: AUTHENTICITY UNDETERMINED

i did not see your #s listed
you say it Reads 4.02oz and says G.024 S.972
It has he initials J.C. on the back
i see
G.024
S.97?
weight 4.20 a scratch looking mark and O

a better pic could help

 

[kalebdad]

Hope this Picture works bettr.

I really thank you for the help. My Dad is so excited to figure out the history on this guy.

 

[Casull]

3- That bar's size-measurement (1"-wide, 2-&1/16"-long, 1/4"-thick) is the typical size for a ONE-ounce metal bar. But the marking on it says it weighs 4.02 ounces. That is physically (and molecularly) impossible, even if the bar was made of a super-heavy metal like gold, lead, or uranium.

This is NOT correct. One cubic inch of silver weighs 6.06 oz. The above described bar would be a little more than 1/2 cubic inch and would weigh in excess of 3 oz. So, if the measurements are a little off, this could easily weigh 4.2 oz.

 

[kalebdad]

From the side of the bar that I can see, I would think that the piece was made by Conrad Wiegand, although most of the reported pieces by Wiegand have his stamp on them. He did use the sort of border you see on this on many of his presentation pieces, and there are a couple of anonymous bars without the IRS stamp that have recently been attributed to him.

It has become fashionable lately to call Wiegand pieces (especially ones with the IRS stamp) forgeries. I am not in this camp, although there are certainly a good number of fakes out there from the 40s – 60s, some of which are stamped Wiegand and some of which are anonymous; in person, I can probably figure out whether you have anything to worry about. Based on the picture that you sent, I would expect the piece to be genuine. I imagine that it came in as part of a collection or accumulation?

I would like to see the ingot in person, if it would be possible. I do have clients for them.

Mailing it to this guy this week. Can't wait to hear the news.

Got this from a senior Numismatist at a well know establishment.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Casull wrote:
> This is NOT correct. One cubic inch of silver weighs 6.06 oz.

You say a cubic inch of silver weighs 6.06 ounces -- but that is in Avoirdupois ounces, Precious metals are measured in Troy ounces, and bars are marked in Troy ounces (or Troy pounds, etc). One cubic inch of silver weighs 5.55 Troy ounces. The difference is very important for authenticating or debunking the bar we are discussing.

> The above described bar would be a little more than 1/2 cubic inch and would weigh in excess of 3 oz. So, if the measurements are a little off, this could easily weigh 4.2 oz.

Yes, the bar would be tiny bit more than 1/2 cubic inch ...but no, NOT "in excess of 3 oz." The measurements given by the poster would have to be seriously off in order for the bar to weigh the 4.2 TROY ounces which the stamping says it weighs.

The poster says the bar is 1" wide, 2-&-1/16" long, and 1/4" thick. That adds up to a very tiny bit more than 1/2-cubic inch ...which means the bar weighs a very tiny bit more than half of 5.55 Troy ounces. Doing the math, .5 times 5.55 equals 2.775 Troy ounces (adding a tiny bit, let's call it about 2.8 ounces). The stamping on the bar says it weighs 4.20 (Troy) ounces. Please note that poster's measurement of 2-&-1/16" shows he was measuring the size down to 1/16th-inch, which means he told us quite precise measurements of the bar.

In summary:
According to the poster's measuement in 1/16th-inch increments, the bar weighs 2.8 Troy ounces.
According to the weight-stamping on it, the bar weighs 4.2 Troy ounces.
So, either:
the stamping says the bar weighs 50% more than it actually does, or
the poster's measurement is "off" by 50%.

I took the poster's statement of the bar's measurements seriously, because his measuring is in 1/16th-inch increments ...and the 50% discrepancy between the as-measured bar's calculated weight and its marked weight is the main reason I blew the whistle on it as being bogus.

Also, the poster gave us only a single very tiny photo (at that time) and indicated (in his post's title) that he thinks it might be an IRS (Internal Revenue SERVICE) silver bar. So I replied that the IRS has never manufactured nor issued silver bars -- which is correct.

 

[Casull]

TheCannonBallGuy, I was referring to your claim that the bar is the size of a 1 oz bar. At nearly 3 oz, clearly that is NOT the case.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Casull, the poster reported his bar's precisely-measured size as 1" wide by 2-&-1/16" long by 1/4" thick. That is very nearly exactly the length and width I am accustomed to seeing for one-Troy-ounce silver bars.

1" by 2" -- one Troy ounce silver bar at: http://www.examiner.com/beauty-and-...f-a-one-troy-ounce-silver-bar-1-inch-by-2-inc

1-&-1/8" by 2" -- one Troy ounce silver bar at: http://www.headless-horseman.com/

 

[Casull]

Yes, I understand the approximately 1" x 2" size is like 1 oz bars, but clearly at 1/4" thick, it is much thicker and obviously much heavier.

 

[cw0909]

kalebdad,do you have more pics of back and sides of that bar/ingot
some info

a very good article on Conrad Wiegand
http://www.coinlink.com/News/gold-s...n-period-the-wiegand-silver-ingots/#more-4840

some more bars one of Harry and it has the zig zag
http://numismatics.org/search/results?q=department_facet:"United States" AND format_facet:"INGOT"

mining assay,docs and items sold,i did not see a jc,i could have missed it
http://www.holabirdamericana.com/HKA-Spring2008-Cat1/SoldItems.html

interesting reading
Heritage 2006 Denver Signature Auction #414 By Mark Van Winkle, Brian Koller, James L. Halperin (editor)
http://tinyurl.com/77yzbb5

 

[kalebdad]

Getting very close to having a answer. It is in the hands of a professional and he says it's real special..

 

[lostcauses]

reminds me of that fake Philippine stuff with the IRS logo.