Introducing Mr. Turtlehead and Hello, Hoyo ...

[Springfield]

... Concerning the Spanish Cave of Gold...
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...

I think this section of CO is definitely in the game. The Cave of Gold is a classic 1930's style treasure tale, repeated in whole or part in many other places. Lots of Spanish gold. Chained Indian slave skeletons. Big wooden door. Etc. The value of the cave, IMO, is the story itself (indicating the venue and establishing the interest), and the cave's location relative to other clues, landmarks and place names. The actual Marble Mountain cave itself is significant in its own right, but lots of exploration in the past hundred years seems to have ruled out it being the depository for lots of Spanish gold.

 

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[Springfield]

... There are also rumors referenced in that pdf, of a tunnel system going down to the Carlsbad Caverns. I don't know where I have it or came across it, but there is the same deep, goes on forever tunnel system reported around Leadville and James territory, as well as all kinds of that stuff around Blanca Peak. Of course plenty of that action in NM, too....

Oh, yes. That's a topic worthy of its own thread. Lengthy natural caverns. Apache secret escape routes. Miles of linked mining tunnels. And, from FM - the blackest, strangest and strongest man I've ever known - the new secret tunnels spreading into your neighborhood soon (I laughed too, at first).

 

[Shortstack]

There are geologists who believe the Carlsbad Caverns go far into Mexico, so why couldn't they go on up toward Colorado? There was so much volcanic activity in the southwestern states, it would not be too surprising to learn the whole area had interconnecting, underground volcanic tubes. The Ancients could have easily seen the extensive NATURAL caving system and dug connecting runs to several to produce a humongous system.

 

[Goldstar1]

I havent looked at tnet for a long time but I just happened to visit here again and this caught my eye. You have some interesting posts here , they seem to go all over the place but that can be a good thing , thinking outside the box. As far as this car goes , it used to be in better condition , there also used to be remanents of an old wagon and wheels which have long disappeared. there also used to be a ton of rusted cans and trash. I believe the cabins were old tiecutter cabins (or logging) but the rumor has it that later this was a booze running operation , possibly by the smalldones, there has been peices of old distilling equipment and peices of old whiskey barrels found there. Did you grow up in that area?
Thanks for some great posts!

 

[Goldstar1]

Further up Bear Creek Canyon is Evergreen a town that has logging as an industry early on and a lake/reservoir created by Denver in 1928 (with plans for the dam going back to 1914) called Evergreen lake. Bear Creek fills that lake. Upstream from that are some expensive houses. Where a few of them are used to be a resort called Troutdale in the Pines, built around 1919, by a wealthy car dealer from Nebraska named Harry E. Sidles:

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The guest list included Hollywood stars, International businessmen, and politicians, like both of the Roosevelts, Teddy & FDR, who were descendents of old Dutch lines, out of New York, formerly New Amsterdam. Troutdale dried up in the 50's, and was torn down in the 90's. It is also pretty close to the foot of Hick's Mtn, and the Upper Bear Creek drainage area known as the Mt. Evans Wilderness Area.

DMP has property on Mt Evans, and was involved with the Wilderness Area, as well:

The next act was to get Mount Evans classified as a National Park, but 1916 was a tumultuous time between the National Park system and the U.S. Forest Service, who currently held claim to the mountain. Already in bitter struggle to prevent the formation of a National Park Service, Chief Forester Graves adamantly blocked the relinquishment of this area of National Forest, in exchange for Forest Service development of the area including the immediate construction of a road between Squaw Pass and Echo Lake (Colorado). This joint exercise between the City and County of Denver, the U.S. Congress, the State Highway System, and now the Forest Service would be completed with help of a newly formed Federal Agency, the Bureau of Public Roads. In 1918, the Bureau of Public Roads provided the plan to construct 9.41 miles of road from Soda Pass (now called Squaw Pass) to Echo Lake beginning in 1919. By 1920, the road had only managed to be constructed to Chief Mountain. By October 1 of 1921, the Bureau of Public Roads had completed construction to Echo Lake. The first survey for the road from Echo Lake to the peak of Mount Evans was made in 1923, finishing the layout by January 1924 despite a flu outbreak in the camp, damaging windstorms, and nearly insurmountable environmental hardships. Battling the unusual problems that come with high-altitude construction (steam shovels performing only half as effective at high altitude, difficulty of hauling coal and water, horse suicide, etc.) the last 600 feet were finally built by hand, being completed in 1930.

Teddy obviously being instrumental in the creation of the National Parks, U.S. Forest Service, et al, with the 1906 National Antiquities Act. From the Dickenson University Teddy Center:

Letter from Gifford Pinchot to Theodore Roosevelt, July 15, 1904. Pinchot was preparing for a convention in Denver in August where landowners and politicians would discuss federal control of lands. It was a convention that left a positive enough relationship to create the USFS the following year. From Library of Congress Manuscript Division.

Transcription of letter:

July 15, 1904.

The President,
Oyster Bay, N.Y.

Dear Mr. President:

Secretary Wilson is to meet Senator Kittredge either at the meeting in Denver early in August, or immediately afterwards, and to discuss with him in the Black Hills the question of the transfer of the forest reserves to the Department of Agriculture, and its effect on mining. As you know, Senator Kittredge is, in his own person, practically the whole opposition to the transfer. He has agreed, if Secretary Wilson succeeds in convincing his of the desirability of the transfer, to help the passage of the bill rather than to hinder it next winter. It has come to me from many different sources that Seth Bullock opposed the transfer strongly last winter, and that his Opposition was largely responsible for that of the Senator. Whether this is true or not I do not personally know, but it is not impossible. Whether it would be wise for you to drop a line to Bullock or not you will know better than I, but I thought I would lay the situation before you.

I feel like telling you again what a capital time I had at Oyster Bay. Washington is rather lonely without Garfield, but there is work enough to keep a man from repining.

Very sincerely yours,

Gifford Pinchot

The Sen. Kitteredge is one from South Dakota. There is a town of Kitterdge, 8 miles upstream from Morrison and 4 miles downstream from Evergreen. Named after Charles Marble Kitteredge, a northeastern based guy who was involved in banking and descended from Old Stock from Massachutes on one side (Kitteredge & Marble) and the political Van Ness line of Vermont on the other, which is a Dutch line. Here is a building, the Kitteredge Building, he built after success in banking in the Dirty D (on the right) and next to that, the Masonic Temple:

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He was also associated with mining, out of History of Colorado, Vol. II:

Since 1893 [When both Douglas McClean & McClain seem to show up, as well as the Hick's Mtn story] Mr. Kitteredge has been somewhat identified with mining, with the layout and disposal of several Denver additions and subdivisions and the building and sale of residences.

Just more crap to make ya go, Hmmm ...

This is a crazy picture of the BC troutdale in full swing , all I ever knew was this as a rundown bankrupt idea in the middle of the canyon, an abandon resort , I remember someone died in this place , a kid exploring or something fell down the elevator shaft that was to be..this picture brings back major memories...

 

[Goldstar1]

Check this out , enjoy!

 

[Goldstar1]

 

[Goldstar1]

maybe an appropriate ending LOF
And a new beginning

 

[KXMember]

When I reflect upon some of the decisions of my conscience mind over the years, it makes me hope like hell there is something to the thought the real power and brains lies in the subconscious. In that vein and combined with an earlier comment of mine about wearing different colored lenses to view the same thing, when I read that book, I did so with comments, a preconception, I had concerning some of the behavior of Doc Noss, as reported by Rog, someone who wasn't even alive when Doc ate a bullet, and never met him. And I'm sure those participating in this thread, as well as many readers, know what I am talking about - Doc was a pervert with a foot fetish, part of the reasons he became a chiropodist, among whatever other despicable attributes you can come up with.

So, with those glasses on, when I read that "gorilla or guerrilla" comment in that book, I assumed it must have been Gorilla, tied to some sexual perversion ring in the area. Apparently, my subconscious wanted me to think about that whole scenario a bit, for it forced it upon me when I awoke this morning. So, let me do that a bit and share those thoughts live, in real time.

Doc OBVIOUSLY had inside information about Victorio peak. Screw buyin' a powerball ticket, I'm going deer hunting everyday of deer season this year, for it seems that only deer hunters are successful treasure/gold ledge/etc. finders. Lol. I'm no THing expert, but my first suggestion to a newbie is to forget the metal detector, get a rifle and a deer tag, 'cause that seems to be the only way people ever get their hands on any of this stuff, or even get to see it. And check the weather and make sure it is either raining or snowing, too, that seems to increase your odds dramatically ...

Further, prior to ending up as a crumpled, lifeless body on the front bumper of a truck, I think that confrontation started inside, before a Mason basically shot him in the back, as he was going away. So what he a gun in the truck. The dude was playing around with some serious, serious stuff. He would've been a fool to not keep a gun with him in 1930's NM - doesn't make him a murderer. Sexually perverted scoundrel or not, how stupid was Doc? How stupid would any of you be? Of course more than Doc was packing heat that day, and Doc knew that. He also knew he didn't have his gun on him. What kind of idiot would tell a bunch of men involved in an illegal treasure recovery that he was now having a confrontation with, who he MUST'VE KNOWN WERE ARMED AND WHO'S GUNS WERE A HELL OF A LOT CLOSER THAN HIS, "You guys with your guns hang on right here. I'm going to turn my back on you, go to my truck, get my gun, and then come back and shoot all ya'll."

Perhaps Doc was running for his life, not running to get his gun to try to end one in a scenario that he MUST'VE have known wouldn't work and would result in his death.

Doc is a pretty maligned figure in all of this. Perhaps that is justified. Perhaps, though, it is manufactured, for people want a bad guy - give 'em one to keep their eyes of the Truth.

Any of you every meet Doc? What the hell do you know about him, then? Enough to make judgements about is character? Or only guesses, based upon hearsay, which carries far less certainty than a judgement.

That's just my random thought of the morning. I think a lot of these big treasure legends in CO/NM/AZ/UT are interlinked and related, both between themselves and over the course of time and multiple groups, so I think about more than one at the same time, and try to make sure I am not viewing things exclusively with only one shade of glasses ...

My mentor's family worked with Doc. I've personally seen official gov documents, maps and photos of almost everything pulled out of his chamber...although he was aware of other locations that those who took his finds know nothing of still today. Remember too that the "underground highways" flow under all these sites, so who knows what's being or been discovered underground everyday in the four corner states.