Indian Burials thoughout history.

[Cappy Z.]

Kind of a intellectual inquiry if you will. I have no plans to dig up any mounds etc. My question is since Florida has been occupied by Indians for thousands of years..shouldn't there be many many burial grounds? Only a few make the news.
The other question I have is about depth. A few years ago in Daytona Beach Florida apparently workmen were repairing a water pipe at "twenty feet" deep in the sand..and found an Indian.
Is it possible that many burial grounds have the remains as deep as twenty feet?

Just an interesting subject.

 

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[TORRERO]

This phenomenon is not limited to native Americans. Basically human remains tend to lose their moral protections after about 250 years. After that, archaeologists have zero reservations about digging you up, taking pictures and stuffing you wherever. ACTUALLY because Native Americans are nearly the only people recognized to have a culture and traditions these days in the US. They have MUCH stronger moral protections than any other ordinary grave. If you think about it, that is really true.

in todays world, maybe but not 50-60 years ago.

 

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[BennyV]

If you look at paperwork for a cemetery plot it says it’s a 99 year lease. Remember that.

 

[TORRERO]

If you look at paperwork for a cemetery plot it says it’s a 99 year lease. Remember that.

I'm talking about grave sites of American Indians, Desecrated and destroyed like the conquistadors that ravaged South America their only concern was Gold or profit.. Or maybe here just to clear land for crops...

 

[BennyV]

I'm talking about grave sites of American Indians, Desecrated and destroyed like the conquistadors that ravaged South America their only concern was Gold or profit.. Or maybe here just to clear land for crops...

I get it. I’m just saying. Manifest destiny. Expansion. Land development. Native burials probably weren’t important to folks focused on expanding their land holdings and maybe even getting their hands on some land for the first time.

 

[GirlWithWolf]

I think there are a few reasons why large numbers were never found.

1. They were found during development back in the day and instead of getting hit with a stop work order they were tossed out like trash. Sad.

2. They were reinterred in local cemeteries.

3. I hope this is the case. They are still out there, but buried in areas that are off the beaten path in areas are still largely uninhabited. Another possibility is there are remains in nature preserves, parks, and public lands that are off limits to digging/development.

Thank you for the reply. All three of those make sense. A fourth might be the person digging (like for city development) might not recognize what they had found, unless it was something obvious like a human skull or a spear head. Which brings up a question, are guys on crews trained to spot things like that?

Isn't it amazing how we wouldn't dare consider digging up one of our cemeteries, but if they belonged to someone else, they are fair game to be dug up and destroyed..

This is true and unfortunately there isn’t a one size fits all way to address it. I’ve seen post here that shows the feelings of most about grave robbing, but most of us go to museums too, and I doubt many feel that stuff should be put back.

This phenomenon is not limited to native Americans. Basically human remains tend to lose their moral protections after about 250 years. After that, archaeologists have zero reservations about digging you up, taking pictures and stuffing you wherever. ACTUALLY because Native Americans are nearly the only people recognized to have a culture and traditions these days in the US. They have MUCH stronger moral protections than any other ordinary grave. If you think about it, that is really true.

That is true and explained perfectly. We’re still here carrying on our customs and traditions, trying not to let our tribes go extinct but living the American experience at the same time. Those extra protections are because we still have a culture and what someone might want to dig up is literally one of our grandfathers or great grandfathers. It isn’t from a lost civilization.

An ndn group I’m in the other day had a huge argument going about collecting arrowheads. I thought it was a rambling of the insane but there was a lot of heat thrown at the ones of us that didn’t see a problem with it. I guess the line in the sand is different for everyone and the circumstances.

 

[BennyV]

Thank you for the reply. All three of those make sense. A fourth might be the person digging (like for city development) might not recognize what they had found, unless it was something obvious like a human skull or a spear head. Which brings up a question, are guys on crews trained to spot things like that?

This is true and unfortunately there isn’t a one size fits all way to address it. I’ve seen post here that shows the feelings of most about grave robbing, but most of us go to museums too, and I doubt many feel that stuff should be put back.

That is true and explained perfectly. We’re still here carrying on our customs and traditions, trying not to let our tribes go extinct but living the American experience at the same time. Those extra protections are because we still have a culture and what someone might want to dig up is literally one of our grandfathers or great grandfathers. It isn’t from a lost civilization.

An ndn group I’m in the other day had a huge argument going about collecting arrowheads. I thought it was a rambling of the insane but there was a lot of heat thrown at the ones of us that didn’t see a problem with it. I guess the line in the sand is different for everyone and the circumstances.

I doubt construction workers are trained on that. I know back in the day they’d have a stop work order, which usually means no pay. Wouldn’t be surprised if they made sure they found nothing.

 

[Older The Better]

I can say from being a carpenter and electrician… granted, small town… there’s no training and really I’m the only one even looking when we dig for foundations or trenches for things, most guys are just there to move dirt and get the job done… and yes I would bet that lots of jobs, some artifacts or bones aren’t worth the money it would cost to halt a project especially with people that don’t care about history. It’s been said, semi jokingly that best thing you can do if you find an artifact on the job is step on it say nothing and when nobody is looking put it in your pocket
… not directed advice to me fyi but the sentiment is out there. Also wonder if a guy on a multi million dollar project would fear losing a job by calling attention to something like that and halting a project

 

[Jatrox]

I just had this conversation recently and in this area, which is rich with native historical sites, it goes like this... when a state project is proposed a study is done to see if it will interfere with any known sites (of any kind, not just graves). If so, they put an archy on site to oversee it. If not, carry on. Private projects have no oversite. If something is found and IF it is recognized as native, most get reported and recorded but a fair share do not. As far as any training in what to look for, absolutely none.

"...but most of us go to museums too, and I doubt many feel that stuff should be put back"
I don't think human remains should be moved unless to prevent destruction. Any and all human remains should be reinterred out of respect. I personally feel it is nothing but disrespectful to display any human remains be it museum, sideshow, anything. No matter what, that's someone's ancestor even when there is no memory, info or context

 

[Tesorodeoro]

Thank you for the reply. All three of those make sense. A fourth might be the person digging (like for city development) might not recognize what they had found, unless it was something obvious like a human skull or a spear head. Which brings up a question, are guys on crews trained to spot things like that?

This is true and unfortunately there isn’t a one size fits all way to address it. I’ve seen post here that shows the feelings of most about grave robbing, but most of us go to museums too, and I doubt many feel that stuff should be put back.

That is true and explained perfectly. We’re still here carrying on our customs and traditions, trying not to let our tribes go extinct but living the American experience at the same time. Those extra protections are because we still have a culture and what someone might want to dig up is literally one of our grandfathers or great grandfathers. It isn’t from a lost civilization.

An ndn group I’m in the other day had a huge argument going about collecting arrowheads. I thought it was a rambling of the insane but there was a lot of heat thrown at the ones of us that didn’t see a problem with it. I guess the line in the sand is different for everyone and the circumstances.

Around here if it’s a state or federal funded project, as part of the environmental studies, the tribe of record is contacted to see if they have any sites near the project. They ALWAYS say yes, but the exact location is a secret. Then they demand to be paid prevailing wage to stand by and watch just in case.

We had some road signs (in the roadway fill) that burned. We wanted to jack the old burnt 4x4 out and set a new post on the hole..you guessed it.

Otherwise, yes on certain jobs, there is a pre-job meeting where a talk is given about identifying artifacts and remains.

 

[GirlWithWolf]

Around here if it’s a state or federal funded project, as part of the environmental studies, the tribe of record is contacted to see if they have any sites near the project. They ALWAYS say yes, but the exact location is a secret. Then they demand to be paid prevailing wage to stand by and watch just in case.

Sad to say it, but I 100% believe you. 🙄

 

[GirlWithWolf]

I doubt construction workers are trained on that. I know back in the day they’d have a stop work order, which usually means no pay. Wouldn’t be surprised if they made sure they found nothing.

That is what I figured, no one is going to stop getting paid or shut down a large project.

 

[Tnmountains]

Lots of the shell mounds wash out into the river or in the case here Tva flooded millions of acres. My fishing maps list mounds under water. I have also seen predication where animals burrowed in and chewed the bones.
Most major cities are built upon ancient burial grounds and are under parking lots,streets and buildings.
But I have wondered the same thing on hunting older archaic and woodland sites where you see no signs of anything left.

 

[Tesorodeoro]

Thank you for the reply. All three of those make sense. A fourth might be the person digging (like for city development) might not recognize what they had found, unless it was something obvious like a human skull or a spear head. Which brings up a question, are guys on crews trained to spot things like that?

This is true and unfortunately there isn’t a one size fits all way to address it. I’ve seen post here that shows the feelings of most about grave robbing, but most of us go to museums too, and I doubt many feel that stuff should be put back.

That is true and explained perfectly. We’re still here carrying on our customs and traditions, trying not to let our tribes go extinct but living the American experience at the same time. Those extra protections are because we still have a culture and what someone might want to dig up is literally one of our grandfathers or great grandfathers. It isn’t from a lost civilization.

An ndn group I’m in the other day had a huge argument going about collecting arrowheads. I thought it was a rambling of the insane but there was a lot of heat thrown at the ones of us that didn’t see a problem with it. I guess the line in the sand is different for everyone and the circumstances.

Since we can relatively easily pick up good arrow heads today laying on the surface that could easily be reused today to take any NA game still. I figure there is a reason so many are found intact. It’s not that they fell out of their pockets or they lost that many arrows.

The limited knowledge I have of some NA Natives ways tells me it was because the arrowhead that missed its target was not made correctly. Not that it wasn’t shaped right or was not sharp, but that it wasn’t made right. There wasn’t luck involved. It didn’t find its target for a reason.

I think they may have abandoned points and walked over other people’s points for a reason. Using someone else’s point that someone else made, that missed its target , may have been taboo. That’s my theory anyway.

I know there is evidence of relatively modern tribes reusing ancient points.

Most of my local tribes are not interested in artifacts themselves they are simply against others collecting them.