Huge Ammunition Cartridge Casing, 37mm Hotchkiss?? Please Help.

[Tulsa Clovis]

I'm not exactly new to the site, I used to have another account but I haven't used in years and couldn't remember the details to log in. I found something today and I instantly knew this would be the place to go to I.D. it.

I was surface hunting for arrowheads today here in Oklahoma when I stumbled upon this spent casing. It is 93 mm long, and the opening where the projectile would have been measures about 37-38 mm. It says "HOTCHKISS PARIS" on the bottom. I did a Google search and found several Hotchkiss cannons as well as different types of ammo but I'm not sure exactly what I have here.

When I found it I saw it partially exposed underwater, and thought, "Thats crazy, that piece of copper looks like a huge bullet." I was kind of shocked when I picked it up and it really was a large casing. The patina really looks like copper, maybe it is brass but it sure looks like copper.

My questions:

What is this shell called?
What is the name of the weapon was it shot out of?
What time period or war(s)?
And anything else you can tell me.

 

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[steelheadwill]

Nice find. I got a misfired round back in 2011, had a lot of info in the post but two weeks of posts frosm back then got lost during a site upgrade
anyway, it originated as a handcranked gatlin type autocannon with 5 round magazine, shells could be solid, HE frag or canister, if i recall they were introduced in the 1870s but used thru wwI.
There was a great 3d animation of the action of the weapon on youtube, can't find it anymore.
here's some pix, congrats & HH to ya

 

[Tulsa Clovis]

Wow, quick reply, and exactly the info I was looking for. Thanks a lot Steel!

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Adding to what Steelheadwill said (which I gave a Like to)...
Your shell-casing was made for firing in a Hotchkiss Revolving Cannon, produced by an American ordnance inventor named Benjamin B. Hotchkiss, who invented and patented several versions of artillery projectiles which were widely used in the US civil war. He continued to produce improved designs after the war ended... but the US Ordnance Department rejected them. In disgust, Hotchkiss moved to France and "set up shop" there, because the French Army & Navy Ordnance Department was very supportive, purchasing large quantities of his cannons and projectiles. In Paris during 1867, he founded "Hotchkiss et Cie" which is French for Hotchkiss & Company. Long-lastingly embittered by his post-civil-war rejection by the US Ordnance Department after having contributed so much to supplying the yankee army with high-quality projectiles, he never moved back to the US, dying in Paris in 1885.
Hotchkiss Revolving Cannon « Forgotten Weapons
You can learn more about Benjamin B. Hotchkiss and his inventions here:
Benjamin B. Hotchkiss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Tulsa Clovis]

Thank you for adding that CannonballGuy.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Nice find.... The thing I noticed right off is that your shell is un-fired.... No firing pin mark on the primer. Having found it in water I wouldn't worry about the primer being live or anything, but it means that for some reason, someone took apart a live round.

 

[clovis97]

I don't have anything to say about the shell that you found, but I do like your name.

 

[ivan salis]

those were used with high explosive shells to try to kill off german machine gun nests in WW1 * along the trench lines --- before they attempted to do mass wave attacks--with the dented primer but the shell head still on it --yours might be a "misfire" and could be alive ***** be sure to de powder it and be sure its not a HE round (explosive type)..

 

[Helix]

Interesting thread. Some of you may remember the large shell casing I found a few months ago. Most agreed it was a 37mm round also, that was burn from the inside or tossed in a fire more then likely. Like NOLA Ken pointed out it looks un fired. Could Tulsa Clovis casing/round met the same fate as mine? Of course Tulsa's casing is not as damaged as mine but the metal up top does appear to have been pried on or expanded in some way.

 

[steelheadwill]

those were used with high explosive shells to try to kill off german machine gun nests in WW1 * along the trench lines --- before they attempted to do mass wave attacks--with the dented primer but the shell head still on it --yours might be a "misfire" and could be alive ***** be sure to de powder it and be sure its not a HE round (explosive type)..

Thanks Ivan, Mine was a saltwater find, nice how the actual projectile held up. wonder what the alloy is that held up for a century under those conditions I disassembled it, it's the HE frag type and whatever was inside is gone now, there is a simple impact fuse that would have ignited the HE on impact.

 

[tamrock]

I have this Hotchkiss casing I posted in the past. You may enjoy reading a few other links and information on the ammo of this era? Helix, Did you find that harmonica reed in the area of the shell casings you posted? I have an area I've found old casings and a reed also. I wonder if there's a connection on why these items are found close to each other.
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/w...ester-artillery-shell-i-m-thinking-s-wwi.html

 

[steelheadwill]

Really nice Hotchkiss is fired on pawn stars season 4 ep 27 'weird science', streaming on hulu and amazon,
here's a poor quality clip


and the animation i mentioned

 

[Helix]

I have this Hotchkiss casing I posted in the past. You may enjoy reading a few other links and information on the ammo of this era? Helix, Did you find that harmonica reed in the area of the shell casings you posted? I have an area I've found old casings and a reed also. I wonder if there's a connection on why these items are found close to each other.
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/w...ester-artillery-shell-i-m-thinking-s-wwi.html

My best guess... They were live rounds tossed in a fire. Possible they were brought back from WW2?


Also. I find harmonica reeds every were spanning years of time. They are a very common item to find. I would say if you found a reed, its a good spot!

 

[tamrock]

My best guess... They were live rounds tossed in a fire. Possible they were brought back from WW2?


Also. I find harmonica reeds every were spanning years of time. They are a very common item to find. I would say if you found a reed, its a good spot!

Kind of what I was thinking based on what I've found and items others on the site find in association with harmonica reeds. Seems to be a sign of a place of activity. I certainly can see them as the take with you MP3 players of their day. I believe your finds are older then WW2. and more like pre WW1.

 

[Kimo-HI]

Hotchkiss Paris canon round revisited 2017

I found this thread on a web search and perhaps I can get further 'expert' help with a family treasure. Cleaning up a 70+ year family members collection I found this Hotchkiss Paris "complete" round. Obviously it has not been "used" but now I worry that it might not be a dummy! I can't imagine that this family member would have a "live" round in his collection, but he's not around to answer to that. I can also "see" that there could be history here, but I wouldn't be comfortable selling the piece without assurance that it is in fact a dummy round. What would be a good approach here? BTW tumbling the shell, I can hear nothing inside!

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Is the projectile seated in the case or is it removable? Best advice I can give to anyone not familiar with artillery shells is to look for a local collector, or a gun show and have it looked at, a collector will know where to get it inerted and will likely offer to buy it as well.

If it is live it is illegal to own without a Federal Destructive Device tax stamp, if I'm remembering right any explosive ammunition containing more than 1/4 ounce of explosive falls into that category.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

There's an exception for Blackpowder ammunition. Unlike more-modern explosives, Blackpowder is not classified as a "High Explosive." You can own up to 50 Pounds of Blackpowder without being legally required to store it in an Explosives safe or similar facility.

If Kimo-HI's 37mm Hotchkiss casing dates back to before 1890, it probably had Blackpowder as its propellant charge and bursting charge. I do not consider myself an expert on late-1800s-to-modern ammunition, although I have come across a fair amount of info about them in my projectile studies. That particular form of Hotchkiss fuze and the Paris markings and lack of a date on the brass casing suggest it was manufactured before 1900.