HMS Victory- update

[AUVnav]

There are plenty of posts on TNET regarding people looking at the state of the company and investing. It is you who reeks of desperation with your posts. You dont answer any of the issues brought up, and resort to petty antics to attempt to illustrate your point. You are blind pumping when you refuse to look at factual data, and refute anyone who does present factual data.

Look up the definition of a Deed of Trust.

You even posted the Deed of Trust, but then decide to selectively post from it, taking it out of context, and obfuscating on the intent.

Here is what you stated

"1) The Secretary of State hereby transfers to the Company:
(a) Every part of the said vessel; and

(b) all that is connected with her which is situated in the immediate vicinity of where she is lying (save insofar of personal property not belonging to the crown)"

you have that basically intact. But then you leave out the important finish to the paragraph:

"upon trust for the education and benefit of the Nation"

That is what puts a Deed of Trust, and the transfer in context. Again, do you really want me to post the definition of a Deed of Trust or a Trust for you?

You stated this,

These monies could come from numerous sources once MHF has control of the artifacts.

That is not correct, even in the project requirements it was stated that MHF was required to provide all funding up front, from recovery to conservation and curation of the artefacts, PRIOR to the start of recovery.
In addition, the Maritime Heritage Foundation has committed to manage and curate the Collection in line with the Museum Association's Code of Ethics for Museums. The Code of Ethics explicitly states that a museum may not fund ongoing operations or expenses by the sale of artifacts.

The UK Government has set up a Deed of Trust, not a Deed of Title. They have also set up an Advisory Committee to promulgate the rules by which the recovery is to be managed.

The post that began the lastest discussion, the findings by MMO. Pretty specific on site disturbance, correct?
What does the Deed of Trust state?

"2) The Company shall not have the power, and the Company hereby agrees not to disturb, remove from the seabed, sell, charge, lease, or otherwise dispose of anything hereby transferred without the express consent of the Secretary of State, provided such consent shall not be reasonably withheld" (emphasis added)

With the recent MMO findings, do you feel Odyssey violated the express terms of the Deed of Trust?

From theyworkforyou

Andrew Smith (Oxford East, Labour)
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence
"(2) whether his Department gave permission for excavation of HMS Victory 1744; and what assessment he has made of whether there has been any breach of the Deed of Gift of the wreck."

Mark Francois(The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence; Rayleigh and Wickford, Conservative)
"No specific permission was sought from the MOD before OME revisited the site in summer 2012."

"No determination has been made on whether there has been any breach of the Deed of Gift. The expert panel will review the MHF submission and provide its advice to the Government through the advisory group."


The legal issues surrounding a recovery are certainly part of any discussion regarding recoveries on this website.

Early in this thread, SADS 669 posted Only if they play fair....

 

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[AUVnav]

Jolly mon,

I would again provide the following, which was posted on the internet, stating it was obtained by FOIA from DCS to MHF.

Provide your spin on selling of personal items.

"The VICTORY wreck site certainly comprises a wide area and for archaeological purposes has to be viewed holistically. While the site may contain a mixture of Crown and ‘personal’ artefacts, you will understand that we would not be willing to sanction a search for the latter which would cause detriment to the site. In practice therefore, the site has to be treated as one and I know you recognize that both HMG and the Foundation will need to ensure that any action taken in respect of it is consistent with the provisions of the “Rules to the Annex” of the UNESCO Convention.
Finally, I am not convinced that the concept of “trade goods” is applicable in the case of the HMS VICTORY and her cargo. The ship, a warship of the Royal Navy, was lost while returning from a naval mission to relieve the French blockade of British ships in the River Targus in Portugal. We are thus firmly of the view that the ship, at the time of her loss, was operating on Government non-commercial service.
It is I suppose possible-though as you are aware, we believe the possibility is remote-that the ship was carrying private consignments of goods, but this would have been in accordance with the practice of the time, whereby the provision of protection and safe passage to the property of private citizens was a recognized military function of the Royal Navy, particularly in times of war."

 

[AUVnav]

Fate of the HMS Victory will be debated in Parliament next week on Thursday by Kevan Jones.

 

[VOC]

AUVnav, is that the same Victory, the one in Porstmouth is in trouble and needs a good few million spent on it so it could be that one.

 

[Jolly Mon]

AUVnav, is that the same Victory, the one in Porstmouth is in trouble and needs a good few million spent on it so it could be that one.

LOL...I think you were in involved in some of the delightful conversations AUVcrappa had with the late, great Jeff Kramer a few years ago on the big Odyssey thread...http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/shipwrecks/56531-odyssey-marine-article.html... the man sure shows a lot of class and "copy and paste" ability doesn't he ?? I didn't realize Mr. Kramer had revealed AUVcrap's true identity way back then...too funny.

Anyway, as far Nelson's Victory is concerned, since the MoD apparently doesn't have the 40 million pounds or so restoration will cost, perhaps the archaeological crowd will make good on their preference for in situ "preservation" by simply allowing Victory to sink to the bottom of the sea with all artifacts aboard. Apparently that is their goal for all historic shipwrecks...

 

[AUVnav]

You are the real class act there Jolly Mon.

You provide a link that shows Kramer cutting and pasting for days, what is your point? Kramer was famous for his seashell and tshirt stand on the boardwalk. Didnt you get any of the Floridas Fabulous Treasure wet T shirt pictures he used to pass around? That was class.

Nelsons Victory is undergoing a massive restoration, and 50 million pounds have been set aside for it and administrated by a trust. HMS Victory

VOC,

Thursday
The day ends with an interesting archaeological issue to be raised in the adjournment, the wreck of HMS Victory 1744 - this is the battleship which bore the famous name before Nelson's flagship. Its remains have been discovered in the Channel, and there has since been some debate about the terms under which the wreckage will be recovered. Labour's Kevan Jones - a former defence minister - will discuss its fate.

 

[VOC]

Thanks Nav, I will look out for that one.

 

[AUVnav]

More relevant news on the Victory

VICTORY 1744 PROJECT FACES JUDICIAL REVIEW


I suspect it may be this group

[h=2]Admiral Sir John Balchen Descendants Society[/h]

 

[Jolly Mon]

Here is a screen shot of UK Parliament during Mr. Jones' blockbuster "debate":

There was basically no substance to Mr. Jones' rant. He cast aspersions on Lord Lingfield's character with zero proof, Robert Balchin, Baron Lingfield - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, rambled that Lord Lingfield might not actually be related to Admiral Balchin because their names are spelled differently. (What difference this makes, even if true is anyone's guess.) He then proceeded to suggest that the gifting of Victory to the Maritime Heritage Foundation was a conservative back-slapping plot. Again, no proof. Lots of bombast. Thankfully, after Mr. Jones' rant had ended, his questions were addressed by the MOD with basically a laugh.





The entire rant can be viewed here starting at about the 17:10 mark: Player

 

[AUVnav]

Ouch...quite the list of allegations.

Doesnt matter how many people are in the room. It is a matter of record.

The many individuals that Jones stated he will be writing to and about is extensive.

 

[Jolly Mon]

Ouch...quite the list of allegations.

Doesnt matter how many people are in the room. It is a matter of record.

The many individuals that Jones stated he will be writing to and about is extensive.

The only "ouches" you will hear are going to come from the archeofacists when the first of the 100 or so bronze cannon left on Victory start breaking the surface later this year.

Both the Ministries of Culture and Defense were on hand to debunk Kevan Jones' rant. Did you not notice they were the only people left in the chamber as MP Jones stumbled through reading pages of baseless allegations he obviously had no hand in even crafting??

Now, fall back on plan "B" and start carping about the possibility of an upcoming Judicial Review. No one is worried, Scrappy. It is simply the last gasp of a desperate crowd. No laws were broken in granting rights to crown property to the MHF. As for the rest of Victory, she lies outside UK territorial waters and Odyssey's rights to salvage and salvage awards are well established under maritime law.

 

[AUVnav]

Another one of your classy posts. No class. Lets not let the facts get in the way of your ranting.

According to the Odyssey report, and the Wessex field survey, there are about 40 cannon at the site. I suppose you can keep inflating the number and the value of the cannon., but alas, the value is immaterial, as there is no salvage award.
The Judicial Review was confirmed by DCMS in the debate, which is why MOD said nothing during the entire debate. The Judicial Review is simply the beginning of the process, the review will determine if the case will go to Court or not.

It doesnt matter the location of the Victory, it was a sovereign vessel. In the Deed of Trust, and other documents, it specifically outlines the terms and conditions that need to be met as part of the gift to MHF. The Advisory Group, terms and conditions, are well defined. The project plan by MHF states conformance to these parameters.
As noted by DCMS, RoW will only determine ownership, not provide any monies for artifacts recovered, and it is up to MHF to fund the recovery through donations.

Again, Odyssey has no rights whatsoever to the Victory. They are but a contract salvor, and contract salvors have no rights. Keep beating your drum.

 

[ARC]

I have learned more from this thread...
Than I have online about this... in its totality
Heh.
All I can say is... wow.
Um... one more thing...
40 cannon ? What happened to the other 60 ?
She was outfitted for 100 correct ? 28-28-28-12-4
Gundeck... 28 - 42 pounders
M- gundeck... 28 - twenty fours
U- gundeck... 28 - twelves
Quarter... 12 - 6's ...
and castle.... 4 more... 6's ?

P.s... I do not follow this as intently as it seems you all do...
I read months ago about some of this...
seems so complex and partly "shady" anymore.
Everyone has irons in this fire.

 

[AUVnav]

The current location only represents a portion of the ship, ballast and rudder piece suggests the hull and first level gun deck.
The wreckage was widespread, with pieces reported washed up on Aldernay and other islands.

 

[ARC]

Have any other locations of wreckage been found ?
errr reported and found are 2 very different birds.

 

[AUVnav]

Good question.
It does not appear that any other wreckage identified as the Victory has been located.

What do you mean

errr reported and found are 2 very different birds.

Reported vs identified?

Historical reports noted many artifacts labelled Victory had washed up on Aldernay, Jersey, and Guernsey.

It appears what has been located is the lower hull portion of the vessel, which after the top portions were ripped off in the storm, could have kept afloat for some distance.

Note that the forecastle of the Mercedes was afloat for several days, allowing rescue of the Admiral.

 

[Jolly Mon]

Another one of your classy posts. No class. Lets not let the facts get in the way of your ranting.

According to the Odyssey report, and the Wessex field survey, there are about 40 cannon at the site. I suppose you can keep inflating the number and the value of the cannon., but alas, the value is immaterial, as there is no salvage award.
The Judicial Review was confirmed by DCMS in the debate, which is why MOD said nothing during the entire debate. The Judicial Review is simply the beginning of the process, the review will determine if the case will go to Court or not.

It doesnt matter the location of the Victory, it was a sovereign vessel. In the Deed of Trust, and other documents, it specifically outlines the terms and conditions that need to be met as part of the gift to MHF. The Advisory Group, terms and conditions, are well defined. The project plan by MHF states conformance to these parameters.
As noted by DCMS, RoW will only determine ownership, not provide any monies for artifacts recovered, and it is up to MHF to fund the recovery through donations.

Again, Odyssey has no rights whatsoever to the Victory. They are but a contract salvor, and contract salvors have no rights. Keep beating your drum.

Of course I never said Odyssey would recover 100 cannon, but it is strange you should so obviously and so desperately want only 40 cannon to be at the site. It is also strange that you should be so concerned with their value. Why is this ?? Are we on a shipwreck forum or a stock market discussion forum?? You seem to confuse the two.

The figure of 41 cannon was determined through a photo mosaic produced by Odyssey. Clearly, no one knows for sure how many cannon are actually there. The sediment layer is up to 10 feet thick and the sub bottom images show many high density anomalies. The total number of guns the project will recover remains a mystery.

A judicial review can be granted for practically anything, regardless of actual merit. In order for the courts to proceed, specific laws must have been broken. Disliking the MoD's decisions based on politics carries no weight. It is abundantly clear no laws have been violated in this process...that is why MP Jones' diatribe was so short on actual substance and so heavy on innuendo and character assassination.

Whether you like it or not, UK Maritime Law exists. It is not going to stop existing just because you would like it to. Even the clowns over at the PipeLine recognize this fact...they understand the legal vulnerabilities in the matter vis a vis recovered artifacts and are shaking in their boots.

Crown property from the Victory was gifted to the Maritime Heritage Foundation. Therefore Crown property no longer carries sovereign immunity. It does not matter how much you scream and howl...this is a legal truth and has been admitted even by lawyers of the UK archeological crowd.

All artifacts recovered from Victory will initially be turned over to the UK receiver of wrecks for disposition. What was formally crown property will belong to MHF. Here is a copy and paste from the UK receiver of wrecks:


"The duties and rights of wreck owners

If you own a wreck, you must prove ownership to the satisfaction of the Receiver where wreck material has been recovered and reported. You must provide proof of ownership within one year of the material being reported. You will be entitled to have your property back as soon as you have paid any due expenses and an appropriate salvage award."



What cannot be identified as crown property becomes the property of Odyssey if no proof of ownership can be otherwise produced. This is so precisely because Victory lies outside of UK territorial waters. This fact DOES matter. It matters greatly.

But the really hilarious part of your argument is that Odyssey will not be entitled to a salvage award...but of course Odyssey has already received a salvage award for the two cannon they recovered when the guns were still crown property !!!

Yes, that's right...Odyssey would be entitled to an appropriate salvage award even if Victory had not been deeded to MHF by the crown !!!

Incidentally, I am not going to continue to debate with someone who is not a salvor, not an archaeologist and is clearly not even interested in treasure hunting.

What I AM going to do is sit back and watch as Odyssey, discoverer of the most important wreck in the history of UK maritime archaeology, goes about the task of raising these amazing artifacts for the benefit of the British public.

 

[AUVnav]

The only "ouches" you will hear are going to come from the archeofacists when the first of the 100 or so bronze cannon left on Victory start breaking the surface later this year.

Of course I never said Odyssey would recover 100 cannon

But the really hilarious part of your argument is that Odyssey will not be entitled to a salvage award...but of course Odyssey has already received a salvage award for the two cannon they recovered when the guns were still crown property !!!

This has been answered before, but Odyssey did not receive a salvage award for the cannon. They were asked by the MoD to recover 2 of the cannon, correct? When you ask someone to recover something, you pay them for it. $250,000 for 2 bronze cannon, one of which is the only known example? Did they get paid scrap value?

The thread always goes to the $Billions Odyssey is going to make from the recovery, and the salvage awards, hence the discussion of the value. Honestly, do you read your own posts?

The Victory was gifted to MHF with a Deed of Trust, not a Deed of Title. The Crown did not give away sovereign immunity, ownership of the wreck, and the artifacts, including the sailors personal belongings, just to have to buy it back.

Incidentally, I am not going to continue to debate with someone who is not a salvor, not an archaeologist and is clearly not even interested in treasure hunting.

Bold statement when you have no idea who I am, nor what I do. I never really considered this a debate, it would be unfair for me to debate with someone intellectually unarmed with inferior experience.

You are correct, I have no interest in treasure hunting, but I guarantee have I have discovered, archaeologically mapped and recovered many significant shipwrecks.

 

[Jolly Mon]

TAMPA, Fla.--(Business Wire)--
Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (Nasdaq:OMEX), pursuant to an agreement reached
with the UK Government, has filed a motion to dismiss and vacate the warrant for
the arrest which was filed in the U.S. District Court on Admiral Balchin`s HMS
Victory, a 100 gun ship of the line lost in 1744 in the English Channel (case
number 8:08-cv-1045).

The UK Government has agreed to pay Odyssey a salvage award of 80% as
compensation for the artifacts which have been recovered from the site and
submitted to the UK Receiver of Wreck. A valuation of approximately $200,000 has
been agreed for the two cannon recovered from the site, providing for a salvage
award of approximately $160,000. The company will also be participating in the
ongoing process of consultation to determine the approaches that should be
adopted towards the wreck. "

Odyssey Reaches Agreement with UK Government on Dismissal of Admiralty Arrest and Salvage Award for Cannon from HMS Victory | Reuters


Emphasis mine, LOL.

 

[AUVnav]

ahhh yes, an Odyssey press release, well wait, whos press release is this? Is this another example of the allegations that the press releases information, not from the Company, but not refuted? Who released this press?

Should one actually read the Court documents, perhaps a different tale?

Perhaps a simple timescale, the Admiralty Arrest motion for dismissal, the recovery of the cannon, and self proclaimed 'award' for salvage.

Again, 2 bronze cannon, one of which is the only known to exist, from the Victory, yet the value is but $200K?

Correct me, as I suppose you will try, but when were those cannon submitted to the RoW for determination?

Other than parroting the Odyssey press release, do you have evidence of the claim that the cannon were processed through the RoW for valuation? (RoW claims are subject to review of ownership and public record)

It is far more fact, that the MOD contracted Odyssey to recover the cannon and were paid a fee for the recovery.

For your arguments sake, let's keep the value of the cannon at $100K each. There are a reported 40 cannon left on the site. What is the site worth?