Help on How to Search a Patent Date?

[ipsilateral]

Anyone know a site or method to search patents from a particular day when no patent number is present?


I have a lamp here and I am trying to identify it. The lamp says, "MADE IN GERMANY", "US PAT, MAY 6TH 1930". I have identified the glass itself as having come from the Kokomo Opalescent Glass factory in Indiana-- "America's oldest art glass factory". A representative at Kokomo wrote me this:

"What an outstanding lamp! Well, they sent you to the right place. The glass is our color number #99 which is still in production today. Our resident expert on glass colors suggests that you check with the US Patten office for more information about the lamp, maker, and patten information. The shade is a very good match to the base and may or may not have come together. If you need a piece to replace something with, just let me know. Also, would love to use the photo on our website if you are agreeable."

 

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[diggummup]

A little about the PH-Lamp-

Henningsen designed a multi-shade lamp that went on to win an award at the Paris World Exhibition. The lamp started out as the original “PH-Lamp”, but is now known as the “Paris” lamp. It was designed using scientific principles. For every inch of the light’s shades, Henningsen considered how much of the light’s glare should be shielded to create the perfect illumination for a home. His PH-Lamps are still in demand today. Some are simple wall sconces, while others are elaborately outfitted. All are highly artistic in appearance and precise in their function. With his lights, as with his satire, Henningsen never shied away from making a bold statement.

This is a PH-4 "style" Lamp

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Diggum ~

I agree. The odds of the lamp being a Poul Henningsen design are extremely remote. But I also feel the odds of a 1930s lamp made in Germany with a PH mark which is not in some way connected also seems remote. I realize this is somewhat contradictory, but I just don't know what to make of it. It's hard to believe there was more than one PH mark being used at the same time. But I totally agree that it's possible. Like I said earlier, I have pretty much thrown the towel in on this one. I have already spent more time on it than I should, (appx 4 hours now) and pretty much have to call it quits. But I'm confident it will eventually be identified by someone.

And to depart on a positive note, I am fairly certain the animal itself is a Red Deer Stag, which are common in Europe, including Germany. I realize this may not help much, but hopefully it will add at least one more clue to the mystery.

Read about Red Deer here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Deer

Good luck to everyone. I hope it gets solved soon.

SBB

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

A little about the PH-Lamp-

Henningsen designed a multi-shade lamp that went on to win an award at the Paris World Exhibition. The lamp started out as the original “PH-Lamp”, but is now known as the “Paris” lamp. It was designed using scientific principles. For every inch of the light’s shades, Henningsen considered how much of the light’s glare should be shielded to create the perfect illumination for a home. His PH-Lamps are still in demand today. Some are simple wall sconces, while others are elaborately outfitted. All are highly artistic in appearance and precise in their function. With his lights, as with his satire, Henningsen never shied away from making a bold statement.

This is a PH-4 "style" Lamp

Check out the name and date on this patent. http://www.google.com/patents?id=tZh4AAAAEBAJ&printsec=drawing&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I am convinced that PH stands for Poul Henningsen. However, I have a couple of concerns. The majority of his designs can best be described as "Danish Modern." For example, the PH-Artichoke lamp shown below is noted as his most famous design. And the majority of his lamps fall into this same "modern looking" category. So far I have been unable to find the stag lamp in question here, nor anything quite like it. Maybe it was "designed" by Henningsen, but made by someone else.

SBB

[ PH-Artichoke Chandelier - 1958 ]

The shade was changed.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Yogi Berra once said ... "When you come to a fork in the road, take it!"

Powell and Hanmer, P & H Ltd., Chester Street, Aston Manor, Birmingham, 4, Ernest Street, (1929) B1 machined components, motor accessories including carbide/acetylene and electric lamps. (Photo thanks to Colin Ansell)

[ P & H Lamp Makers Mark - England ]

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I say ... "When you come to a dead end, turn around!"

LOT 168
Powell and Hammer Cyclone bicycle lamp;
Estimate: $100.00 - $200.00
Realized: $120.00
Powell and Hammer Cyclone bicycle lamp; 19th C. English mfg., embossed label. 4 1/2"H. Good condition.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I say ... "When you come to a dead end, turn around!"

LOT 168
Powell and Hammer Cyclone bicycle lamp;

Yogi Berra once said ... "When you come to a fork in the road, take it!"

Powell and Hanmer, P & H Ltd., Chester Street, Aston Manor, Birmingham, 4, Ernest Street, (1929)

Should we keep guessing even though its solved? Maybe you have me on ignore.

 

[diggummup]

I say ... "When you come to a dead end, turn around!"

LOT 168
Powell and Hammer Cyclone bicycle lamp;

Yogi Berra once said ... "When you come to a fork in the road, take it!"

Powell and Hanmer, P & H Ltd., Chester Street, Aston Manor, Birmingham, 4, Ernest Street, (1929)

Should we keep guessing even though its solved? Maybe you have me on ignore.

I gotta disagree with you BigC. I'm not convinced it's a Poul Henningsen. I have not seen one lamp similar in design other than the one Bob posted, of which I do not believe the person is correct calling it a Poul Henningsen lamp. Every single one of his lamps are of Danish Modern design. I don't believe the patent by him for a reflector for incandescent lamps with the same date has anything to do with this particular lamp, unless it has the reflector designed by him on it.
I do agree that the base and the shade are a marriage and weren't originally together.

I think we need more from the poster such as, where is it marked "Made In Germany"?. Have you taken a loupe over every square inch of this piece. What does the underside of the base look like? I looked at all the photos posted on the link provided but unfortunately they don't tell or show enough. The jury is still out as far as i'm concerned.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

OK that 2 against one lol. But whats the chances of a lamp clearly marked "PH-4 US PATENT, MAY 6TH 1930" with the date being the Poul Henningsen PH-4 reflector patent date? I think the odds are overwhelmingly in my favor but I respect your opinion and thanks for acknowledging my findings.

In my mind, the shade has been changed. I would like to hear others opinions. Of course finding the stag base match would be the clincher but if I was a gambling man, Id bet its solved. Ive been wrong here before but I dont remember when. Im only looking at the facts. There are only a handfull of non- automotive lamp patents on that date and Ive searched them all. But I understand we must be sure but its the best we got and I say follow the trail, it has not come to a dead end.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I don't believe the patent by him for a reflector for incandescent lamps with the same date has anything to do with this particular lamp, unless it has the reflector designed by him on it.

Now thats a possibility. All Im really saying is that I found the patent stamped on the bottom of the lamp (thanks to Sodabob and your research) and the reflector has been changed.

I would follow the trail. Follow the clues; the facts. Did Poul Henningsen make any lamps stamped Made In Germany or allow his shades to be used by a German lamp manufacturer?

 

[diggummup]

With all due repsect BigC-
The patent by him for the reflector does not collaborate with the design of this lamp nor the base. If you read the first paragraph of the patent it states-

The present invention refers to a reflector arrangement for emitting diffused light and in particular to a special arrangement in such reflectors which consisit of a system of lamp shades which completely surround the source of light so that no radiating rays may meet the eye directly

This is evidenced in nearly every design of lamp he produced-

http://tinyurl.com/3c7o7sl

In conclusion I believe the PH-4 on this lamp has nothing to do with that particular patent, which involves a series of lamp shades.
I will refrain from any more replies until these questions have been answered-

Ipsilateral- Where is the ph-4 in relation to the U.S.PATENT MAY 6, 1930, also is this on the base or shade?
Where is it marked "Made In Germany", base or shade?
Is it actually marked "Made In Germany US Patent MAY 6,1930 PH-4" all in one spot in that order?
Can we see a photo of the PH-4? I don't think it's posted unless I missed it.
What does the underside of the base look like, any markings, photo if possible?
What are the letters etched into the underside of the glass panels as shown in photos 8-10 on shutterfly? It looks like a number 6 them some letters.

If I am repeating something that has already been answered please forgive my ignorance and failing eyesight.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

With all due repsect BigC-
The patent by him for the reflector does not collaborate with the design of this lamp nor the base.

Of course not. Excuse me if I wasnt clear. The patent is for the reflector/shade. In my mind, I feel the reflector/shade must have been changed..

The only other possibility is a forgery or its possible that PH-4 could be a stock or part number. But I think that would make for a big coincidence. Its possible that the German maker took advantage of the same patent date and stamped a PH-4 part number to make buyers think there was a connection. To me its too much coincidence.

I respect your opinions.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I said I was bailing out ... but this stuff is addicting which I have a weakness for.

Even though I find it extremely odd there would be two lamp makers with the same mark during the same time period, I find it even harded to believe that a PH-4 shade went atop a Red Deer stag lamp base. Diggum is right - we need to know more about the marks and their various locations.

SBB

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I like your images. Thanks Bob.

I am not familiar with lamps and I guess I dont have an eye for style because it look good to me.

Possible scenario: A German lamp maker designs a stag lamp but uses a patented Poul Henningsen shade so he needs to stamp the patent date on the base. Excuse me if Im being redundant.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I don't think apologies are necessary from anyone. I will be the first to admit I don't know a dang thing about antique or any other kinds of lamps. But I do know a little bit about hunting, as I have tagged my share of Mule deer over the years. Of course, hunting on the internet is different, but the "following the trail" principals are basically the same.

Here we have a closeup of the makers mark from the red shade I just posted. But whether it is an original Poul Henningsen lamp and original mark, or a later version, I don't know. It simply reads ... PH Lamp

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

My best guess is that it would read: PH-4 US PATENT MAY 6TH 1930. But the way it's engraved around a circle, it could be in any order. I have no idea what that PH-4 means..Hopefully it will ring someone's bell. Thanks for putting that picture up.

Same question as Digg. Where is it marked "Made In Germany", base or shade?




I have to admit when Bob first connected PH to Poul Henningsen, I thought it was a part number. But that was before I found the patent date match.

Question: Do Poul Henningsen lamps have PH-4 on the base?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I read back through the posts.
I suppose the 2 styles clash but
I want to remind everyone that the patent date for the shade does not necessarily have to be on the shade itself. It could be on the base. I have Stanley planes that have patented frogs, adjustments and lever caps with 3 patents all cast into the base. http://www.supertool.com/stanleybg/stan0.htm from Patrick Leach www.supertool.com.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I'd like to take this opportunity to play my "Occam's Razor" card. Which in laymen terms means, I am falling back on the principal that ...

"The most obvious and simplest explanation is usually the right one"

Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) is the principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" and the conclusion, thereof, is that the simplest explanation or strategy tends to be the best one. The principle is attributed to 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham. Occam's razor states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory.

The link below will take you to a site that shows just about every style of lamp Poul Henningsen ever designed. As you will see there is absolutely nothing to suggest he designed anything even remotely similar to a bronze stag lamp. I realize I was the one who first brought up the PH = Poul Henningsen theory, but I realize now that something just doesn't jive here. What that "something" is, I can't rightly say at the moment. But I now think we are missing some major clue here, and that the PH very likely stands for something other than Poul Henningsen.

SBB

Link to Poul Henningsen lamp gallery:
http://www.deconet.com/decopedia/designer/499/Poul_Henningsen

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

The only thing I have found so far designed by Henningsen that might be considered out of the ordinary for him, (other than the numerous lamps and a handful of chairs and tables) is the item below, which is described as follows ...

Poul Henningsen: PH-Pianette. Frame of nut wood. Designed circa 1935. Serial no. 9768. Manufactured by Andreas Christensen. W. 142 cm.

Note: I'm not sure how much 142 cm. is, other than the piano is a small table-top decorative piece. But even it is somewhat "modern" looking.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

If you want to start over from scratch go back and look at the patents listed on reply #13 and try to find a better fit. Looking at the pic, I would say for sure its MAY 6, 1930. I think we all agree on that.