Has anyone else dug one of these? What are they?

[BuckleBoy]

Hello All,

When I dig one of an item that I can't ID, I search for the ID...but some items are tough as you know. When I dig multiple examples of something, or one of my buddies does, then I start thinking that it should be possible to get an ID (like the scythe handle ferrules I posted here several years back). Well, here we go again. The two pieces in the first five photos came from a late 1700s/early 1800s site in Kentucky where Hill Billy dug his Nova Constellatio Copper in 2010.

The pieces are thick either rolled or stamped brass, and they both come to a point on the end, which was curled up. I thought at the time that someone might have done this when they tossed the piece away, much like wadding up a piece of paper before throwing it in the trash can... I didn't think about the fact that the brass is not flimsy and could not have been rolled up on the end like that by hand without great effort.





There is a riveted attachment, with a flower-like, bowl-shaped top piece on the second piece. This may be a big clue to identifying it.







Well, day before yesterday in Louisiana, Shane dug a piece that reminded me of the pieces from two years ago that I had dug. When I fished them out of the brass bin, they were identical in design. The piece was broken in the same spot as the longer piece I had dug (photos 1 and 2 in this post; broken at a hole in the piece; compare this with the last photo in the post). The end of Shane's piece was likewise curled up.

Whatever this piece was, the curl was important, and had something to do with the use, or a decorative effect.





Has anyone else ever dug a piece like this? Any ideas about what it is?

Best Wishes,


Buckles

 

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[kuger]

That is identical to the one I found Mike!!!

 

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[jeff of pa]

? Only More Decorative ?



Maybe even bits of an old rose trellis
on the side of the Outhouse

 

[BuckleBoy]

Here ya go BB
Dug this in 1999 at a 1750's homesite. Never thought i'd see another like it.
It was bent that way when i dug it. 1/2" wide As far as an ID









1 more photo to show where it broke at the hole

WOW! The plot thickens!!! Thank you for posting this. I now believe that this was an item that saw widespread geographical use, from the northeast, through Kentucky, down through the deep south, and out west. We should be able to figure this one out.

Again, the end was curled up, so that is integral to the design or the use, or both.

I wonder...if the hole in these pieces you guys dug once had a rivet and flower-like piece like mine does. I also wonder if anyone is finding just the piece independent of the brass strip.

 

[shanegalang]

I'm really anxious to get a definitive answer It was amazing to me when BB got his out and the hole (obvious stress point) matched up. The designs match to a T.

 

[Breezie]

Buckles, I believe you have parts from an antique wall candle stick sconce. They were 'fashioned' after the 'tommy sticks,' or gold miner's candle holders. Although the original gold miner's candle holders were made from iron, there were candle wall sconces made of brass that were more ornately decorated, and had the tommy stick 'curl.' I can't find any decent pics on Google to give an example, so the ones below are not great pics, but will give you an idea. Neat find, Breezie

 

[BuckleBoy]

Breezie,

That is a good guess. Can you tell me what the function of the daisy-like riveted-on thingy is?

 

[DCMatt]

Breezie,

That is a good guess. Can you tell me what the function of the daisy-like riveted-on thingy is?

Breezie's post gave me an idea.

These are wall hangers for lanterns. That's why the ends are curled so you can hook the lantern. They are either broken at the stress point or the rivet has popped from the lamps being removed, lit, and rehung every night.

These would have been common in most homes up until the time of electricity.

DCMatt

 

[jeff of pa]

which just remined me of this

 

[Breezie]

Breezie,

That is a good guess. Can you tell me what the function of the daisy-like riveted-on thingy is?

The daisy like cup would be to hold a candle. I think your strap with the candle cup has been mashed/bent over the cup, but if straighten out, would hold a candle. Breezie

 

[Hill Billy]

My hunch is that these items are the decorative rim from a suspension lard lamp. Were any square brass chain link type items found nearby? Or cast brass scroll shaped pieces with fancy designs? (These look similar to the side plate design on trade muskets)

CC Hunter

I also found a piece of this brass BBoy is asking about and noticed you asked about chain.
I dug my piece at the same site BB dug his on, I also dug a brass chain, only two links still attached.
I'm not sure if these went together but thought I would throw it out there.

Hill

 

[Roger Mn.]

It might be a shop keepers bell. The flower rivet held the bell.

Like jeff of pa posted.

http://www.thefind.com/hardware/info-shopkeepers-bell

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I agree with the others. Candle or oil lamp sconce. (The pic is modern but it shows the idea.)

View attachment 600329View attachment 600330

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

...but I guess it could be a lot of things. Only an exact match of the design will green check this one.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Breezie,

That is a good guess. Can you tell me what the function of the daisy-like riveted-on thingy is?

The daisy like cup would be to hold a candle. I think your strap with the candle cup has been mashed/bent over the cup, but if straighten out, would hold a candle. Breezie

This is much too shallow to hold a candle. I don't know what the daisy-like cup is, but the total depth of it from the bottom of the cup to the top of the lip is only half a centimeter at most.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Looking at this, I think the first two pieces I posted (five photos) and Hill Billy's piece make one complete item, since they were from the same site, and since I have never dug another of these things (they do not seem like common items). I believe that my two pieces (first five photos) were on either side of Hill Billy's piece, his being the middle of the thing since it does not have tapered-off, curled/rolled up ends.

Also...I will have to post a photo of this when I have better light... But it appears that there was a thin piece of flat sheet brass between the rivet head and the flat brass piece, and that brass sheet appears to have been sheared off around the rivet (you can see the irregularity of the sheared off edge underneath the circular rivet head in the photo of the underside of the flower-cup-thingy in my original post). I am going to clean this very carefully, but it appears that the flower cup thingy was riveted on to a piece of brass at some point.

I will clean, re-photograph, and investigate this.

Several thoughts... The picture hanger idea I really like--and due to the peculiar 90-degree bend in Mike's photo, I think that is a Very plausible ID. But my gut reaction was that a log cabin in use in the 1790s on the Frontier of Kentucky wouldn't have been likely to have had picture frames...although it is possible (because this was one of the wealthier spots we've hunted in terms of coins found). The house site the Louisiana example came from was certainly well-to-do. The picture frame hanger doesn't explain the daisy cup thing.

Obviously, the stress at the joint where the hole is caused the piece to fail in some way, or at least break. I also wondered if the holes once had flower cup thingys in them, but I would think that we would've found those in that spot in KY if more of them were on the piece, since there seems to be a lot of it that was tossed out. Also, we have hit this spot many times, and no more flower cups have been found.



Mike, was the site where you found yours a plowed field, or woods?


Kuger, I am anxious to see the example you dug.


I also hope that Shane and I will find more pieces of the Louisiana example in our Cane Field, and that there might be something new to consider.

 

[Mike in Berks]

Mike, was the site where you found yours a plowed field, or woods?

Dug at a place that was settled in the 1750's. In the area of a house and barn that was
demolished in the 1920's.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Mike, was the site where you found yours a plowed field, or woods?

Dug at a place that was settled in the 1750's. In the area of a house and barn that was
demolished in the 1920's.

Thank you for your reply, Mike. I guess what I am trying to find out is if the land was ever plowed. Both my examples, and HB's have come from plowed ground--and the plow does a lot of damage/bending of items. I thought if by chance yours came from the woods, it might have been bent that way by whoever used it for whatever they used it for.

Best Wishes,

Buckles

 

[Mike in Berks]

Mike, was the site where you found yours a plowed field, or woods?

Dug at a place that was settled in the 1750's. In the area of a house and barn that was
demolished in the 1920's.

Thank you for your reply, Mike. I guess what I am trying to find out is if the land was ever plowed. Both my examples, and HB's have come from plowed ground--and the plow does a lot of damage/bending of items. I thought if by chance yours came from the woods, it might have been bent that way by whoever used it for whatever they used it for.

Best Wishes,

Buckles

Hard to say if it was plowed or not ? County decided to destroy(demolish) everything. I'm guessing
there was a lot of clearing out the trees and grading so they could fill the whole area with water in
the 20's. The way it's bent up i agree it probably did get pushed around some in the process. No
stress points i can see except for the piece that broke off. All the ones shown are either bent or twisted so i wouldn't concentrate on the shape mine is in. If someone figures out what purpose the flower - rivet thing served that will help a lot.

Maybe a photo of the "inside" of the flower - rivet thing will help too ?

 

[Mike in Berks]

BuckleBoy i found a match to your 1st photo. No age but it says antique.
Bracket to a hanging lamp. You might wanna check it out.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/antique-han...568?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c253fc78

 

[BuckleBoy]

Mike, you got it!!

FANTASTIC ID!!!

I am posting the other photos to this thread, so they will be on Tnet after the eBay listing disappears:











This one is SOLVED