Ground Balance Trackig

[tnsharpshooter]

More data comparing the Deus coils.

What I want to know is what advantage(s) do these coils may give me.

Well, here's a pic that might show one.

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That IH under the plane of nail.
I only used the hot program thus far checking
The elliptical coil,,the IH is invisible.

Both the round HF coil and the LF 9" round will give me signal on coin.
What differences do I note between the 2 round coils?
Signal is generally cleaner with the HF coil,,when best settings are used for both.

Biggest difference in my opinion,,coil height, round HF coil yields considerable more coil height and still gives me something to investigate.

Something else worth mentioning,
Makes me wonder if version 4.0 wasn't built around this 9" round HF coil.
Why do I say this?

Because so far this round HF coil seems to link up faster,,reminds me of version 3.2 using LF coils.

My LF coil use and elliptical coil use,,,coils don't seem to link up as fast using 4.0 version.

More data.
Took round HF coil to 2 more remote sites.

This coil, closer chirpiness wise to LF coils,,maybe a tad better using 2 lower bands of freqs,,,didn't try upper band in these 2 sites.

This coil IMO not as fun overall audio wise to hunt with vs elliptical.
Disclaimer: No lightning or thunder noted in either of those 2 sites, Clouds from TD Harvery though may be charged up.

Using hot program sens at 90 28.8 kHz, Reactivty level 2.5,,sweeping detector giving quite a bit of ground feedback, running dead on GB too.
Raising Reactivty to 3 seemed to help somewhat.

Much easier to run elliptical with negative GB a few points vs this coil,,in these 2 sites.

I can also say, much easier on average to let a small find slip by using round coil vs elliptical coil.

Also, since I have several now continuous hours on elliptical coil,,,using same program same settings today in these 2 sites, audio sounded like using the round HF coil like someone turned my car stereo up from level 7 to level 10.
Blaring volume wise.

Still see no delays when turning in Deus with the round HF coil mounted.
Turn on coil is locked and loaded.
Even changing freqs, she locks and loads fast,,no beating around the bush,

More later.

Alright some comparisons using LF 9" coil at 18khz
The round HF coil
The elliptical HF coil.

10" deep nickle, cap is placed for reference and not moved,,only the nail.
Hot program used in all cases here, sens at 92 Reactivty 2.5 silencer -1, GB to ground. Zero disc full tones used, audio response 5, level six volume on wireless headphones.
Sweep down the direction of ruler and get something tonally for me to investigate.
Two way signal provided in all pics below when swept, with settings noted.
First pic below round HF coil, freq set to 28.8 kHz,,,,14.4khz will not pass this test in pic.

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Next pic round HF coil freq dialed up to 54khz

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Next pic 9" LF coil at 18khz same settings otherwise.

Next pic HF elliptical set to 14.4khz

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Next pic hf elliptical dialed to 28.8khz

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Next pic HF elliptical dialed to 74khz
Special note here, the nail gets sparky using this freq, but I can hear the nickel signal.

Same nickle in pics above with nail removed.
Using LF9" coil and round HF coil.
Hot program used on both Reactivty at 2.5, silencer -1, audio response 5, wireless vol 6, gB to ground. TX power 2 on LF coil. Zero disc setting full tones.
Try to see how low sens wise I can go and get a good signal although weak.
9"LF coil in 18khz sens could be lowered to 68.
9"LF did in 12khz sens could be lowered to 72

9" Round HF coil.
In 14.4khz sens could be lowered to 68
In 28.8khz sens could be lowered to 62
In 54khz sens could be lowered to 60.

Elliptical HF coil same goal as above. Same settings.
In 14.4khz sens could be lowered to 82
In 28.8khz sens could be lowered to 73
In 74khz sens could be lowered to 63.

More data. The experiement above. Yesterday the ground was dry.
Today it has been soaked by soaking rain. 3" roughly, nice slow rain mostly.
So again back to this same nickel and the goal was to see how low sensitivity wise I could get a good signal although weak.
Same settings used as above.

9" LF coil
In 12 kHz sens could be lowered to 68
In 18khz sens could be lowered to 69

9" round HF coil.
In 14.4khz sens could be lowered to 69
In 28.8khz sens could be lowered to 67
In 54 kHz sens could be lowered to 63

Elliptical HF coil
In 14.4khz sens could be lowered to 85
In 28.8khz sens could be lowered to 72
In 74khz sens could be lowered to 63

 

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[tnsharpshooter]

In the post above notice how the distance of nail and cap on top of deep nickel closes as freq is increased.

Now, I could have changed my sweep direction and nailed this nickel.

And a person hunting a site a lot even using Deus and LF coil could/might hit the nickle.

But what about a one time hunt in a site?
Where your approach angles coil wise would be limited.

Elliptical coil is the odds on favorite in the scenario above when run right setting wise.

And I guarantee a persons will be able to stay a hunting longer and feel more comfortable sweeping the tiny elliptical vs the other Deus coils.
Wonder how I know this?? Lol

 

[CharlesUpstateNY]

Thanks Charles we were venturing into the heart of metal detecting darkness. The way that leads to madness. Thanks for the sanity check.

I agree that stuff is constantly moving up, down, and around in the soil due to settling, frost heave, root action, and human factors (e.g., landscaping, plowing, and construction). That how I find a buffalo nickel in freshly placed playground mulch. I like to imagine the journey it took to end up there.

I once dug a Barber quarter...out of the bark of a tree 2 feet off the ground. Which began my obsession with sweeping the trunks of trees for about the next 3 years, found a few musket balls then gave up on tree trunks.

 

[CharlesUpstateNY]

Well, anyone can assume or think anything they want.

XP Deus even with LF coils I think it is safe to say has been ranked high for minerals handling for Vlf and does extremely well with separation/unmasking for coil size.

Now enter HF elliptical coil.

Think about this.

What other Vlf detectors are out there that can be run at 28.8 khz give or take with a smallish coil.
And remember what I said about Deus DNA above.

This is the reason when I test and make such comments, I use what I call controlled sites.
And beat and pound around in them to see what happens with a detector.

Just while ago I was at an old house site.
The end of the house, 5 plus years ago I found a deep IH with Etrac,,10" deep. I have been at the end of this house with every detector I have owned. Some different coils too, to include Deus with LF coils.
Walked in to this spot dropped the HF elliptical in there get a banging signal reading 95.
My eyes lit up, dug down and out pops a clad dime.
This could have been the silver one, but wouldn't.
Still though another what I call a good high conductor find in an area I have spent a lot of time.

I see a trend definitely.
I don't jump to conclusions, I need to see some thing happening more than once or twice before I start giving huge credit here.

Make no mistake Deus elliptical HF coil is for real.
A monster of a coil/detector setup.

Let's keep watching.
I am certain there will be some gold coins pulled this latter fall, winter, and spring detecting season.

Folks who THINK their old sites are cleaned out- think again.
Now, your finds pouch may not be runneth over, but finds I think will materialize.

The elliptical coil I think can see coins on edge or out of whack moreso position wise.
Also elliptical coil can actually be swept and break over iron/nail and punch deep closer to the ferrous.

I have done test and see this definitely.
It is frequency dependent too.
Using 14.4khz a user is sacrificing some very nice performancewith this coil,,make no mistake.

I don't doubt any of this. Once the easy signals are gone and you have to work for the signals things get weird. About the time I thought I had my other machine mastered I'd find yet another example of some freakish thing on a given target. That one frequency worked better than another on a target or one coil, especially those times when logic suggests it should not be true yet there you have it a dug target proving it, this speaks to the madness that vferrari mentioned.

My best example, a null running in all metal which technically cannot happen. Dead silence, no threshold tone nothing, target was 2 silver quarters I dug the null only because there should not have been a null imagine the expression on my face when two silver quarters only about 9 inches deep were dug, yeah that discombobulated me for a while.

 

[Mike G.]

Was the 10 inch dime test with the 3 coils done here in Wa. or before you moved here?

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Was the 10 inch dime test with the 3 coils done here in Wa. or before you moved here?

Test was done in Tn in what is labeled as medium mineralized ground.
Folks will notice my results on 10" deep dime using elliptical very similar/same as gent above sweeping 10" deep dime with eillipticlal in video.

Now, if a person didn't test, one might think using 14.4khz would be the odds on favorite to give a signal on a deep dime like this.
But nope, don't happen in my soil.
And there is soil in USA higher minerlized than where I did the test.

Mild soil likely would yield different results, making 14.4khz at least useable to detect deeper dimes.

 

[CharlesUpstateNY]

In the post above notice how the distance of nail and cap on top of deep nickel closes as freq is increased.

Now, I could have changed my sweep direction and nailed this nickel.

And a person hunting a site a lot even using Deus and LF coil could/might hit the nickle.

But what about a one time hunt in a site?
Where your approach angles coil wise would be limited.

Elliptical coil is the odds on favorite in the scenario above when run right setting wise.

And I guarantee a persons will be able to stay a hunting longer and feel more comfortable sweeping the tiny elliptical vs the other Deus coils.
Wonder how I know this?? Lol

A smaller coil can have an advantage in a given site condition, certainly a more narrow coil that produces a tighter more focused magnetic field, a higher frequency perhaps more so. A 9 inch coil doesn't have a 9 inch diameter magnetic field, its more like 15 inches wide on average size targets, and much larger than that in the neighborhood of several feet on very large targets, that tells you just how large the magnetic field is.

The software and circuitry of the detector gives the appearance that the field is much smaller by hacking off pieces of the received signal, an illusion that seems to suggest a DD coil is only detecting targets down the center of the coil when in reality it has already begun detecting the target before the coil is even over the target.

Now lets go off the deep end...coil construction. I have built coils I'm telling you its spooky. I have not (yet) dissected a Deus coil but based on past coils I have built for Explorers I would want to know the number of turns and gauge of magnet wire used on the HF elliptical vs the HF round, and the LF 9 and LF 11, and LF vs HF. Also how the TX (transmit) and RX (receive) windings measure, resistance, capacitance, inductance, and Q across coils of different sizes and frequencies.

What I'm saying is the HF elliptical coil may not be just a frequency thing or a shape thing, coil construction may also play a role. The number of turns (loops) of magnet wire in TX/RX windings elliptical vs round, the gauge of the wire, the type of the wire. Yes even that can be a variable. Did you know that Minelab uses very expensive woven Litz magnet wire in Explorer coils for TX, you don't increase cost of materials and construction to use Litz for no good reason. Even common magnet wire comes in a variety of different insulations, some thick, some thin, some less prone to issues with capacitance. Teflon coated wire for example is used in high end PI coils for this reason. I wasn't kidding, coil construction is weird and spooky.

Then there is the variance within a single coil, measure 10 Deus HF elliptical coils do they all measure the same? Are all balanced the same? Coil balance yet another factor, and balancing a DD coil is particularly annoying. You balance them by overlapping the two windings precisely, just a tiny nudge will knock the coil out of balance. Sometimes this happens as the epoxy cures. Coils I have measured...maybe 1 in 8 are out of balance a bit, some more than others. That manufactures spend so much time and effort trying to get the balance to absolute zero suggests this is pretty important.

So I have given up trying to understand and explain every weird thing I see detecting and just accept there are too many variables. Like TN I'll look for patterns across multiple targets dug and utilize that information to my advantage if I can, and remain open to the next weird thing I never saw before.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Yeah,
The elliptical defies logic somewhat.
Why I have said some of the things I have here in this thread.

A 10" deep dime is no easy target for a stock sized coil for a lot of detectors really in medium mineralized ground.
And just imagine along with this depth comes some great separation.
A 2fer here.

One detector and coil that can solve many puzzles as far as nonferrous existing the ground.

And really even with a one Reactivty and one silencer setup, one freq setup,,,lots of possibilities for making finds.
Gotta keep the audio report dialed up to 5 or more, my recommendation at least.
Weaker signals seem easier to hear too on elliptical vs LF coils, even the round HF coil.

 

[Mike G.]

Sorry TN, I got your post mixed up with Charles post. I had originally wanted to ask Charles if he had done any testing like yours using the HF coils here in Washington State.

 

[CharlesUpstateNY]

Mike 10" dime test?? I doubt a Deus could hit a dime at 10 inches in our Pacific NW soil, maybe on a patch of less mineralized soil if one could be found.

I'm still trying to figure out the 9 inch round HF coil in our local soil, I prefer to test on actual targets in the field vs a coin/target test garden. Though I did perform quite a number of air tests using all sorts of silver, gold, copper, bronze coins, jewelry, and common trash targets. I printed out a pocket guide of the target ID's for use when hunting. Deus ID accuracy is iffy in our soil so I don't consider the pocket field guide as gospel. I did setup a 2nd program that mirrors my primary program only difference is its 14.4 kHz vs 54 kHz for my primary program. Its really quick to jump back and forth between the two programs, and since I scanned all my test targets for the field guide at both frequencies I can use what 14.4 kHz tells me to better guess the ID of a target. At 54 kHz the target ID's are really crammed close together, they spread out more at 14.4 kHz so if a target ID is bouncing a bit at 54 kHz and could be any one of say 6 different targets, switching momentarily to 14.4 kHz spreads them out and may narrow it down to 1 or 2 possible target ID's. The two program/frequency tip is something I read on the forum recommended by someone I don't remember who.

Since Deus poor target ID in our soil is what's giving me the most trouble trying to improve ID accuracy is what I have been focusing on most. Tones are 'starting' to help me but I have a long ways to go learning Deus tones. I'm going to try tweaking the machine for depth next since I'm not seeing very good depth from it yet. Was planning to head out today except its pouring rain.

 

[Mike G.]

Thanks Charles. I'm still on V3.2 and haven't seen any reason to upgrade so far. That could change if someone could show an advantage using the HF coils for relic and coin hunting in volcanic type mineralization.

 

[CharlesUpstateNY]

Mike maybe we should meet up and you can use my 9 inch HF coil for a hunt or for that matter I'll bring another machine and you can use my 4.0 Deus.

I have compared the 11 inch LF to the 9 inch HF on a site that has areas of significant rusty nails and bits of iron. It seems much easier to work the 9 inch HF in that iron, after using it the 11 inch was kind of frustrating. The 9 inch HF was also the coil that reached under a nearby trash target that was trying to mask an old brass buckle, about 7-8 inches deep. I could only hit the buckle (1 inch buckle its small) from just the one angle, say from the south, north, west, east just the trash target. Kind of interesting that as good as the Deus is at target separation there are still partially masked targets in play.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

If a Person is a relic hunter, I strongly advise they update to version 4.0?
Why?
Version 4.0 IMO is hotter vs 3.2 on irregular shaped objects.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Sorry TN, I got your post mixed up with Charles post. I had originally wanted to ask Charles if he had done any testing like yours using the HF coils here in Washington State.

No sweat.

 

[Bharpring]

TN, by “coil height” do you mean target depth? Or what? This is from your comparison of the HF round and LF round coils.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

TN, by “coil height” do you mean target depth? Or what? This is from your comparison of the HF round and LF round coils.

Round hf coil will allow generally more coil height above ground vs elliptical HF coil and still detect targets. (Especially deeper)
So in taller grass, stubble this could be an advantage.

 

[Mike G.]

Charles, I hunt old logging camps and ghost towns in the deep woods up near Seattle during the late fall and winter months when the underbrush thins out. Give it another month and I invite you to come up and do a hunt at one of my 1860's-1930's town sites that still gives up some nice relics and coins.

 

[Bharpring]

After seeing TN's posts about his test results specifically with the HF coils, I decided to go out to place I have pounded over and over and use the 9" HF round coil on Freq 28kHz.

I was amazed at the reactivity of the coil that I had set at Reactivity 2.5 and Silencer -1. Very nice solid tones with my custom 3 Tone Ultimate program. No Disc (which also produced a much more stable GB).

I only had an hour to test it but was able to find this button amongst the iron and small pieces of aluminum trash. For the last 3 months I have been going to my HF Elliptical over the 9" HF round because of all the reasons TN states in this thread.

Amazing separation and amazing depth and stable and quiet at 74kHz Freq. But the 9" HF round was hitting deep and accurate at 28kHz and will be using this frequency in my routine programs for relic hunting.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

After seeing TN's posts about his test results specifically with the HF coils, I decided to go out to place I have pounded over and over and use the 9" HF round coil on Freq 28kHz.

I was amazed at the reactivity of the coil that I had set at Reactivity 2.5 and Silencer -1. Very nice solid tones with my custom 3 Tone Ultimate program. No Disc (which also produced a much more stable GB).

I only had an hour to test it but was able to find this button amongst the iron and small pieces of aluminum trash. For the last 3 months I have been going to my HF Elliptical over the 9" HF round because of all the reasons TN states in this thread.

Amazing separation and amazing depth and stable and quiet at 74kHz Freq. But the 9" HF round was hitting deep and accurate at 28kHz and will be using this frequency in my routine programs for relic hunting.

View attachment 1507990View attachment 1507991View attachment 1507992View attachment 1507993View attachment 1507994View attachment 1507995

Nice find.
Btw don't be afraid to use Reactivty levels 3 and 4.
Don't think for one minute some depth can't be gotten with higher than 2.5 Reactivty.
Round HF coil IMO is in its wheelhouse at levels 3 and 4 Reactivty when in nails, etc.

 

[vferrari]

Great find Bharpring! Can't quite tell, but it almost looks like a NY State button. I can't wait to hit the fields this week, I am hoping for some nice mid-conductor button finds with that HF round coil, too and plan to use the same mid-frequency setting but in gold field mode because of the mineralization. (Though I will try both disc and gold field/all metal).