Ground Balance Trackig

[Bharpring]

Recently started using some discrimination in combination with notching and have found the ground balance to be a moving target. Not sure why exactly but no big deal tracking should take care of it. So I’m also using tracking for ground balance but I have lost good target signals on a second sweep over a target on a few occasions and wondering if anyone else has experienced this? If so, do you have any advice?

 

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[vferrari]

If you are using Version 4, and it is truly a good target and not a hot rock or iron wraparound, it shouldn't disappear.

Just to be sure, pump or sweep your coil on neutral ground away from the target point and swing again. A solid target will not disappear.

 

[CharlesUpstateNY]

vferrari and targets that do disappear? Foil? I noticed some targets vanishing after sweeping them too many times, if I gave it 5-10 seconds to decay they came back, then would vanish again. Solid targets didn't seem to do this. As I recall those I dug were wads of foil.

While I'm at it lower GB numbers = more mineralization right? I had tracking on last hunt, it dropped into the 70's at times and the ground started lighting up.

 

[vferrari]

vferrari and targets that do disappear? Foil? I noticed some targets vanishing after sweeping them too many times, if I gave it 5-10 seconds to decay they came back, then would vanish again. Solid targets didn't seem to do this. As I recall those I dug were wads of foil.

While I'm at it lower GB numbers = more mineralization right? I had tracking on last hunt, it dropped into the 70's at times and the ground started lighting up.

Charles -

1) OP says target disappears after second swing, that is weird and almost definitely not a good target. I haven't seen the wad of foil disappearing act, but I also can generally tell that one by the first or second swing by audio intensity & tone/target id. Your site environment comes into to play big time on dig decisions too. Foil-like signal at the beach, keep going (if you sure it isn't some sort of small gold, that is). However, in a farm field, I might investigate further.

2) Regarding ground mineralization and GB reading. The mineralized soils that I deal with can result in a marked decrease OR increase in GB reading vs. surrounding milder soil, though I would say the GB either stays about the same or lowers most of the time when in mineralized areas (i.e., there is no definitive correlation). My only definitive clue that its mineralized is the bargraph display.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Recently started using some discrimination in combination with notching and have found the ground balance to be a moving target. Not sure why exactly but no big deal tracking should take care of it. So I’m also using tracking for ground balance but I have lost good target signals on a second sweep over a target on a few occasions and wondering if anyone else has experienced this? If so, do you have any advice?

It is possible for a target not to respond on a second sweep.
How could this happen?

Your Deus could track out,,especially in trash or iron/nails.
If you are sweeping across in a polluted site very possible to happen.

Now, it is also possible to lose targets(nonferrous) with mutilpe sweeps across a target using tracking GB.
Deus at times can see your nonferrous target as a ground anomaly and track to it.
Not real common but can happen.
Likely would be smaller target, or deeper target.

Version 4 auto tracking seems better than version 3.2.
But yes, using versions 4 with auto ground tracking, a person can have difficulties in polluted sites.
Version 4 seems will hold on longer ground phase wise, but it too will eventually give up and all by itself will track into the 60s usually and the detector will sing out on everything even nails or iron.

 

[Bharpring]

Maybe I’m going too fast? I’ll try some patience. Thanks for all of the advice. Good to know that my machine is working properly

 

[CharlesUpstateNY]

Charles -

1) OP says target disappears after second swing, that is weird and almost definitely not a good target. I haven't seen the wad of foil disappearing act, but I also can generally tell that one by the first or second swing by audio intensity & tone/target id. Your site environment comes into to play big time on dig decisions too. Foil-like signal at the beach, keep going (if you sure it isn't some sort of small gold, that is). However, in a farm field, I might investigate further.

2) Regarding ground mineralization and GB reading. The mineralized soils that I deal with can result in a marked decrease OR increase in GB reading vs. surrounding milder soil, though I would say the GB either stays about the same or lowers most of the time when in mineralized areas (i.e., there is no definitive correlation). My only definitive clue that its mineralized is the bargraph display.

For a target that disappears on a 2nd swing my money is on an iron false at the end of the swing where you only partially sweep the iron target with half the coil and it falses high, you swing back swinging the coil completely over the iron target it ID's as iron and poof nothing, assuming iron is discriminated out. Super common on my Explorer Se Pro and Deus, just the nature of partially sweeping an iron target. Second on my list for a target that vanishes on the 2nd swing is your standard false, bump the coil, sensitivity too high ground false, etc.

For 2, I am trying to confirm that a GB tracking reading of 80 is more mineralized than 90. Another Deus owner on the forum recently reported the ground lighting up with a high tone. I confirmed this last week at the same sites he was hunting, tracking working fine then GB drops into the low 70's and the whole ground lights up with a high tone like I was over a 4x4 foot target. I had to move off several feet and re-ground balance. Who knows extreme patch of black sand, old fire pit, hard to say but noticed this at 2 different sites. Its localized, a few feet away and its back to normal.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

For a target that disappears on a 2nd swing my money is on an iron false at the end of the swing where you only partially sweep the iron target with half the coil and it falses high, you swing back swinging the coil completely over the iron target it ID's as iron and poof nothing, assuming iron is discriminated out. Super common on my Explorer Se Pro and Deus, just the nature of partially sweeping an iron target. Second on my list for a target that vanishes on the 2nd swing is your standard false, bump the coil, sensitivity too high ground false, etc.

For 2, I am trying to confirm that a GB tracking reading of 80 is more mineralized than 90. Another Deus owner on the forum recently reported the ground lighting up with a high tone. I confirmed this last week at the same sites he was hunting, tracking working fine then GB drops into the low 70's and the whole ground lights up with a high tone like I was over a 4x4 foot target. I had to move off several feet and re-ground balance. Who knows extreme patch of black sand, old fire pit, hard to say but noticed this at 2 different sites. Its localized, a few feet away and its back to normal.

Mineralization levels cannot be confirmed by ground phase reading.
Bob your coil watch mineral strength meter.

 

[Toothpick]

When running tracking and I loose a target it seems like it is always a very "iffy" target to begin with and is often junk when dug.

I have never lost a target that hit a nice tone on 2 or more swings. It's always only the first swing along with a questionable tone and then it disappears.

It also seems that any lower numbered target (20-35) that gives a buzz or fuzzzy sound along with a solid tone are always junk (foil or hot rock), if it's in the 70's it is a complete pull ring. The separated rings and tails along with flip tabs always sound pretty good to me.

 

[CharlesUpstateNY]

Mineralization levels cannot be confirmed by ground phase reading.
Bob your coil watch mineral strength meter.

Okay so what is the ground phase number then if not an indication of ground mineralization? You guys are losing me.

 

[Bob in Oregon]

Hey Charles,
I may be totally full of it and putting both shoes in my mouth as a newbie with this machine but if I’m understanding this machine correctly, the upper box or ground phase number is a real time ever changing evaluation of the noise amplitude of return ground signals to the machine relative to the particular ground we are on at the moment. The bottom box number (ground rejection index) is the percentage of the upper box numbers actual ground noise we are wanting to reject in real time.
Both the ground phase and ground rejection work together in synchrony up and down, the lower box (rejection) adjusting with the upper number (ground phase) rejecting either a pre-set or manually set percentage of the upper number as the machine see’s it in real time.

The vertical mineralization bar at the far right is the actual total mineralization level of the ground the machine is seeing in the moment. So if we say the vertical mineralization bar at the far right says 4-5 bars (moderate) mineralization, the ground phase may be indicating that only 80 percent of that 4-5 bar area of mineralized ground is actually returning ground noise back to the machine. Which of that, is either pre-set at 90 percent or manually adjusted to being rejected. Conversely, if the vertical mineralization bar is at 8-9 bars (high mineralization) the machine may only see 75 percent of the 8-9 bar area actually returning ground noise back to the machine. Again, we may use the pre-set 90 or manually adjust the ground noise rejection.

I’ve noticed the average vertical mineralization bar numbers will fluctuate up or down depending on the frequencies used. When using the 9x5 HF coil at 28k this past weekend at one of our iron plate, trash heaps, the mineralization bar was buried at the top of the bar continuously and came down only when I stopped swinging the coil yet the ground phase number stayed in the 83-86 range while swinging.......
On an aside, I have to wonder if part of machine tracking off issue at times has more to do with a few particular areas such as you and I have talked about in another post that we both detect where big/rapid mineralization swings within just feet of one another overwhelm the machines ability to track it fully and using a different frequency would work better. I had absolutely no tracking problems with the HF coil, in fact for the brief time I had to use it, it was remarkably stable. So stable in fact that I contacted my dealer and put in the order for the 9” round HF !!
Hope I didn’t stick my foot too far into it....
Best,
Bob

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Okay so what is the ground phase number then if not an indication of ground mineralization? You guys are losing me.

Ground phase indicates mineralization type.
I know where there is a good read on this subject.
I'll post a link here.

Key on Steve Herschbach comments.
And Humble Pie's comments
http://www.dankowskidetectors.com/discussions/read.php?2,37528,37528#msg-37528

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Hey Charles,
I may be totally full of it and putting both shoes in my mouth as a newbie with this machine but if I’m understanding this machine correctly, the upper box or ground phase number is a real time ever changing evaluation of the noise amplitude of return ground signals to the machine relative to the particular ground we are on at the moment. The bottom box number (ground rejection index) is the percentage of the upper box numbers actual ground noise we are wanting to reject in real time.
Both the ground phase and ground rejection work together in synchrony up and down, the lower box (rejection) adjusting with the upper number (ground phase) rejecting either a pre-set or manually set percentage of the upper number as the machine see’s it in real time.

The vertical mineralization bar at the far right is the actual total mineralization level of the ground the machine is seeing in the moment. So if we say the vertical mineralization bar at the far right says 4-5 bars (moderate) mineralization, the ground phase may be indicating that only 80 percent of that 4-5 bar area of mineralized ground is actually returning ground noise back to the machine. Which of that, is either pre-set at 90 percent or manually adjusted to being rejected. Conversely, if the vertical mineralization bar is at 8-9 bars (high mineralization) the machine may only see 75 percent of the 8-9 bar area actually returning ground noise back to the machine. Again, we may use the pre-set 90 or manually adjust the ground noise rejection.

I’ve noticed the average vertical mineralization bar numbers will fluctuate up or down depending on the frequencies used. When using the 9x5 HF coil at 28k this past weekend at one of our iron plate, trash heaps, the mineralization bar was buried at the top of the bar continuously and came down only when I stopped swinging the coil yet the ground phase number stayed in the 83-86 range while swinging.......
On an aside, I have to wonder if part of machine tracking off issue at times has more to do with a few particular areas such as you and I have talked about in another post that we both detect where big/rapid mineralization swings within just feet of one another overwhelm the machines ability to track it fully and using a different frequency would work better. I had absolutely no tracking problems with the HF coil, in fact for the brief time I had to use it, it was remarkably stable. So stable in fact that I contacted my dealer and put in the order for the 9” round HF !!
Hope I didn’t stick my foot too far into it....
Best,
Bob

The ground phase numbers are reference only, not percentages.
The ground phase and the mineralization strength meter are not connected.

For example your soil could read a 85 ground phase and have the same or similar reading for mineralization strength as my soil yet my ground phase shows 77.
And both of us would get the same or very near the same depth with like coil and detector settings on the same targets.

Now take the Garrett At Pro detector, it has no mineralization strength meter, and a lot of folks try to equate the ground phase obtained when ground balancing as a way to judge soil level minerlization,,,these folks are incorrect in their a thinking here.

Now take a Fisher F75 detector, it like Deus gives operator both ground phase and minerlization strength reporting.

Bottom line is to try and keep actual ground phase felt by detector dialed in, or use auto tracking if available.
Auto tracking can be a bad move though some times in real trashy areas or areas load with iron.

Now there are some advanced useage here to be had by running ground balance intentionally higher or lower than actual found phase.
For example Deus, if an operator will run GB phase intentionally 3-5 points lower than actual GB, deeper targets can be detected tonally.
But this tone can be less than textbook.
New users of Deus should try to run GB at actual ground phase.
With experience a user may decide to run GB slightly above or below Actual ground phase.

Now, the milder the ground, a gb of 90 (default btw) will allow a persons to use Deus and get some pretty darn good depth.
But in medium minerlized ground, deeper target can become undetectable using a 90 setting GB.

Folks in Fla, the coast of SC,,are examples where a 90 GB may serve them for their detecting needs.
Also remember in real mild ground pumping GB using Deus may not be achievable. Detector needs mineral to balance.
F75 fisher does this too.

In my area the ground phase runs around 72 with mineral index meter running about half scale.
On a 10" deep undisturbed nickel, you run a 90 GB while sweeping, you won't here it.
I can start to manually lower GB and as I approach 80 I can start to hear nickel, and with further GB reduction as I near 72 ish, it sounds very good.

Nonferrous targets deeper can sound wonkish tonally with GB set too high for soil,,if you can even hear the nonferrous target tonally.

If your soil is not super high mineralized, a 10" deep nickle and a 9" deep dime freshly buried,,if user will experiement with Gb setting they will be able to see affects of GB adjustment.
These 2 targets are also excellent targets to practice on to see how silencer, sens, reactivity, freq, all play into detecting these 2 buried coins.
I recommend every new Deus user to try,,after they get around 5 hunts in first.

 

[Bharpring]

How would ground notch factor into this?

 

[CharlesUpstateNY]

I looked into GB over the past week, wow what a poorly explained and understood topic with many conflicting opinions and statements. Somebody is wrong.

On the Deus the Ground Mineralization Index the white number on black background, they never say what that is exactly. There is a range for dirt 60-95 but does that range represent different types of mineralization or mineralization strength, I think the answer is both. As mineralization strength varies, so does the ground mineralization index reported. The Mineralization Strength bar graph is supposed to indicate how mineralized the soil is, so does the plug you just dug have a teaspoon of minerals in it or 4 teaspoons. Which I think is an element of what the ground mineralization index is trying to tell you.

Some suggest the strength of the mineralization has no influence or consequence on the ground mineralization index or GB correction, that seems wrong to me. The manual says hot rocks begin sounding off with a GB correction of 87, okay what about a big hot rock? If you increase the GB correction to 90 surely that will get rid of big hot rocks right, nope. It doesn't speak to target depth at all which is a major factor. To me the above is a generalization at best that 'may' be true in some soil/site conditions. But its so over simplified the user may be confused then when their machine in their local soil doesn't behave as the manual describes.

Simplified - mineralization is camouflage that hides a target. The more mineralization in the soil the heavier the camouflage. The deeper the target the heavier the camouflage. Even in soil with mild mineralization as target depth increases, the target to mineralization ratio increases favoring mineralization. At some point you are hearing about as much mineralization in the tones as target tones. Deeper still and the target fades completely away into the mineralization camouflage. In more highly mineralized soil this transition happens quicker hence less depth in higher mineralized soil.

Adjusting the GB correction to stable operation, mostly free of soil mineralization may notch out smaller, deeper targets which have mostly faded into the mineralization camouflage. Adjust GB to allow more mineralization in and you may hear the target, go too far and it will be difficult to identify the target from the numerous ground false signals. The Deus manual hints at backing off the GB correction just a tad to find that sweet spot, not too low on the GB correction that you drown in false signals, but not too high that you knock out deeper/smaller mostly camouflaged targets.

 

[CharlesUpstateNY]

How would ground notch factor into this?

Great question, and why even have such a feature. Lets say you propose to use the notch feature to notch out hot rocks, okay well that suggest you want to allow in other mineralization and why would anyone want to allow in any mineralization? Probably because there are targets hiding in the mineralization and if you just set your GB to 90 knocking out most all mineralization hock rocks and all you knock out those targets hiding in the mineralization zone as well. Just thinking out loud, I'm not saying this is a definitive answer.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

I looked into GB over the past week, wow what a poorly explained and understood topic with many conflicting opinions and statements. Somebody is wrong.

On the Deus the Ground Mineralization Index the white number on black background, they never say what that is exactly. There is a range for dirt 60-95 but does that range represent different types of mineralization or mineralization strength, I think the answer is both. As mineralization strength varies, so does the ground mineralization index reported. The Mineralization Strength bar graph is supposed to indicate how mineralized the soil is, so does the plug you just dug have a teaspoon of minerals in it or 4 teaspoons. Which I think is an element of what the ground mineralization index is trying to tell you.

Some suggest the strength of the mineralization has no influence or consequence on the ground mineralization index or GB correction, that seems wrong to me. The manual says hot rocks begin sounding off with a GB correction of 87, okay what about a big hot rock? If you increase the GB correction to 90 surely that will get rid of big hot rocks right, nope. It doesn't speak to target depth at all which is a major factor. To me the above is a generalization at best that 'may' be true in some soil/site conditions. But its so over simplified the user may be confused then when their machine in their local soil doesn't behave as the manual describes.

Simplified - mineralization is camouflage that hides a target. The more mineralization in the soil the heavier the camouflage. The deeper the target the heavier the camouflage. Even in soil with mild mineralization as target depth increases, the target to mineralization ratio increases favoring mineralization. At some point you are hearing about as much mineralization in the tones as target tones. Deeper still and the target fades completely away into the mineralization camouflage. In more highly mineralized soil this transition happens quicker hence less depth in higher mineralized soil.

Adjusting the GB correction to stable operation, mostly free of soil mineralization may notch out smaller, deeper targets which have mostly faded into the mineralization camouflage. Adjust GB to allow more mineralization in and you may hear the target, go too far and it will be difficult to identify the target from the numerous ground false signals. The Deus manual hints at backing off the GB correction just a tad to find that sweet spot, not too low on the GB correction that you drown in false signals, but not too high that you knock out deeper/smaller mostly camouflaged targets.

The link above where the gent Humble Pie explains is about as simple as what you are trying to get answers to.

They put the minerlalization index meter on the Deus for a reason.
Same for Fisher F75.

Now higher mineral ground will tend to have a higher ground phase on average,,but ground phase cannot be relied on for telling a persons just how minerlized- hence affect depth of detector,,,meaning higher mineral soil would generally with Deus tell a person go low on the silencer, go higher in the freq, run a higher Reactivty setting, sweep slower, listen for targets that are sounding off extremely close to iron range tonally. And if even possibly digging iron tone signals especially on the deeper targets.

Ground notch will cost you depth.
It will make the detector run quieter,,and keep the coil,form falsing more on bumps like when detecting in stubble.

But like everything else, anytime a setting quietens a detector, generally some thing is sacrificed.

Now could a more stable detector let a person hear some finds they might not hear other wise?
Yes.

But at the same time using ground notch could knock out what could be normally a fringe depth detected nonferrous target.

Now you mention ground balance, running it below ground setting.
I don't advise newby with Deus to do right off the bat, but sure a person can do.

Now some additional depth can be had,,,I should point out Deus GB not like all other detectors. So yes a persons can run 2-7 points below ground phase. And deeper targets tonally will be different sounding, you go too low iron will start sounding sweet. You go even lower detector will become unstable.

Running higher than ground phase.
In milder ground not much damage here for a user,,but if some mineral exists even low, the deeper targets like 8 plus inches will start sounding chopped, sound like they are trying to squeeze through,,sweep speed here more critical too to hear. Tonally nonferrous deeper can sound tonally real short, can even sound like iron and mislead a person.

You will see where some folks just run 90 GB.
Some folks believe it or not, their soil minerlalization doe allow, and these folks see no benefits to running actual ground phase GB..
Little do they know the deeper fringe (actually detectable) can slip right by them and they won't even know.

Freshly buried targets at deeper depths will expose all of what I talk about above as far as running GB below or above Ground reading.

Ground notch can also be experimented with on deeper targets and a person can see the affects on deeper targets.

I have played with Deus bunches.
But have used all metal modes some,,,they are not for me,,can't keep tuned here in my ground.
And the gold field program,,I have limted experience using.
No beach hunting both fresh and salt water.
No water use period other than in the rain and yes even some snow.

The rest I have tested, hunted, probably used Deus for at least 5,000 hours.
Also have used Deus to compare to other units, even one test unit I tested.

Charles,
This link, talking about ground notch.
Squirrel in the thread is me.
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?83,2381515,page=1

Deus is so far out of all detectors I have run,,,has the largest grey area tonally for nonferrous targets masked by either or mineral or ferrous materials.
Folks need to learn what the iron grunt sounds like.
This is very important.
Tones produced on targets that don't give this ron grunt,,,these can be nonferous although the tone provided is very very very near iron tone sounding.
Hanging tone with just a flutter of high tinge tone, these too can be nonferrous.

Nonferrous under the Deus' coil many times far from textbook tonally.
This goes for LF and HF coil useage.

The clues are there, folks just need to be a good detective and know when to investigate.
Will a person dig some iron a doing??
You bet ya.

If you are pushing Deus to its limits you will dig iron.

If you are using Deus and are not digging some iron,,you need to keep practicing/hunting with unit. Some folks may find this preceding statement,,,thinking it is backwards.
Meaning the more experience, the better one gets with Deus should mean less iron right??
Nope
Now, I am not saying when a person gets proficient with Deus they will be digging iron every other hole dug.
Just that some iron should be dug when hunting old sites with iron-if a person is on their game with Deus.

New Deus users I feel will benefit especially from the info above.
And with time, they will be able to definitely relate to what I have said here.

How long will a Deus user have to use unit hours wise to start seeing the above?
Depends.
I can say if a Deus user will hunt mostly hard hunted previous sites, learning curve I think overall will be shorter.
But your finds numbers will be less vs hunting in lesser hunted or virgin sites.

 

[vferrari]

I pretty much agree with what TN posted above. I have more gold field experience in mineralized soil than he which has yielded some good finds but haven't had the chance to extensively use the v4 version of gold field combined with an HF coil in mineralized soil. That will change next week when I will do some extended central VA relic hunting and will report back with how the HF coil and gold field do in those conditions.

 

[CharlesUpstateNY]

TN thanks for taking the time to post such a detailed response. What you say makes more sense to me and mirrors what I see on Minelab Explorer Se Pro when detecting at its depth limits. Feel free to talk about Deus co-located targets with iron e.g. iron/button iron/coin in the same hole. Or more difficult, deep target mixed with both iron and mineralization, what is your dig/don't dig clues? Maybe a new thread should be started I guess that's not really a GB question.

If you get a really iffy target on the Deus, do you play with GB to try to clear it up?

 

[tnsharpshooter]

TN thanks for taking the time to post such a detailed response. What you say makes more sense to me and mirrors what I see on Minelab Explorer Se Pro when detecting at its depth limits. Feel free to talk about Deus co-located targets with iron e.g. iron/button iron/coin in the same hole. Or more difficult, deep target mixed with both iron and mineralization, what is your dig/don't dig clues? Maybe a new thread should be started I guess that's not really a GB question.

If you get a really iffy target on the Deus, do you play with GB to try to clear it up?

I will post info here instead.
Why
This will make this thread more well rounded for any Deus user.
And a lot of folks seems do have questions about how to run GB on unit.