Government takeover of treasure sites

mrs.oroblanco said:
"partial quote from Beth"
ooh, ooh, oooh - I can answer that one -but you may not like it.

From the BLM site:

Mineral Material Sales

How to Obtain Sand, Gravel and other Mineral Materials from BLM Administered Federal Lands
The Department of the Interior's, Bureau of Land Management (BLM) is a multiple-use land management agency responsible for administering 270 million acres of public land located in the Western United States, including Alaska. The BLM manages many resource programs such as minerals, forestry, wilderness, recreation, fish and wildlife, wild horses and burros, archaeology, and rangeland.

This article provides general information on the mineral materials program. Mineral materials include common varieties of sand, stone, gravel, pumice, pumicite, clay, rock, and petrified wood. The major Federal law governing mineral materials is the Materials Act of 1947 (July 31, 1947), as amended (30 U.S. Code 601 et seq.). This law authorizes the BLM to sell mineral materials at fair market value and to grant free use permits for mineral materials to Government agencies. It also allows the BLM to issue free use permits for a limited amount of material to nonprofit organizations.



Beth

Thank you Beth! I see no actual reference to individuals in the reference above.

By defining what could be 'disposed of' and excluding from that list the things we seek they have drawn a circle and excluded everything else. I do see in the code a reference to the mining law which is as close as I can come to seeing treasure. If my memory of the mining law is correct that is, and it's been years since I read up on that.

A that time I was trying to determine the difference between patented and non-patented claims, so that remembrance might not be accurate. My analytic mind could not tie the word patented to a land reference at all. My mind was wrapped around 'patented' inventions and would not expand to include the physical land for some reason (still struggle with the use of the word that way).
 

Well, right now there is a "moratorium" on patenting land, unless it was already in the pipeline. (its an excuse, but I'll explain that later).

Here is the deal with patents. First - unlike the environmentalists want you to believe - you don't get it for $2.50 an acre.

First, you have a discovery on public land - now this only pertains to locatable minerals (not sands, gravels, oil, etc).

Then, you develop that discovery. This entails testing, gridding, figuring out how much land, how much in minerals etc. Before that, you file a
claim - then you have to file (and pay for) a plan of operations, and do those operations. Of course, eventually that includes bonds and all that
reclamation things that you have to go through.

If the claim is monetarily viable - and that costs quite a bit of money - you can apply for a patent. What that means is that, if you put more thousands of dollars into it, that you have exclusive use of the land - not just the minerals. You can only patent 2 parts of your claim - the part that is actually mineralized, and an area for processing - which must NOT have minerals on it.

Once you apply for a patent, which you pay hundreds for - just for the application piece of paper - then you pay them more money for them to read the application after you have filled it out and mailed it back. Then you have to have a mineral survey. You get a choice of people, from
their list of people who they will accept. Then you pay the surveyor thousands and thousands, because the mineral surveyor has to go over every single square foot of your claim. Then you pay the surveyor to present that to the government. Then the government charges you to look at
your surveyors form. Then the government sends out their own surveyor - after you have paid them thousands and thousands of dollars more.
Oh - I forgot, you also have to hire a professional mining engineer to write up a proposal that tells them all the ways that the claim could be mined, how much it will cost to do each, which one they recommend, and then you need to have a "feasibility study" done. (more money). Then
you have to secure a bond (yes, another one-before you get the patent), that says they will cover your butt if something else goes wrong. Then
you have to have a financial advisor (more money), write up business proposals, as to how you are going to make money at this enterprise.
Then you have to have a reclamation expert come out, write up a proposal as to how and where you will put new ore, processing ore, equipment
placement, settling pond design (oh, yes, you also have to hire a settling pond expert) - should I continue?

If you get through all this (the reason why it costs millions before you even get the application completed) - you finally get to send all this to
the government - oh, I forgot the lawyer - you will need a lawyer. If all of this is approved, the government gives you a mineral patent. The land and the minerals are yours, forever and ever, just like your house or any other private property. Of course, I should mention that anything in
your claim that is not mineralized enough to be mined economically is taken out (except for a mill area). And THEN you get to pay the $2.50
an acre on what they approve (actually, they have raised that up).

That is just a simple explanation, with several steps missing. It takes, on a good application, 5-10 years, and lots of money.

Now - the moratorium - the moratorium came about when some environmentalist groups thought the government was just "giving away land" for a couple bucks an acre. The moratorium says that public money may not be used to process patents. It doesn't say you cannot patent land,
it just says that public money may not be used. Which is a crock.

We applied for a patent - the government took our $3,000 for sending us the application (and kept it, by the way), and then, when we had done
the first stage of the permit process (more money out of our pocket), we mailed it to the BLM. In the interim, the moratorium was put in. So, since we had a partner who had deep pockets, we got a lawyer and we agreed to paying for everything ourselves, out of pocket, no matter what
the cost was. No public funds. All the legal stuff was sent to them, along with the next check for almost $10,000.00. (we have a very good claim). The BLM sent it back, along with a letter that said we could not pay for the expenses out of pocket, due to the moratorium.

Hmmmmmmm - an oxymoron - no?

Needless to say, I have a very good reason for losing sleep when people talk about the government and treasure sites and mineralized land.
They also tried, unsuccessfully, to vacate our claim, telling us it was invalid. That court battle we won, since we had already spent alot of money
having it gridded out and drilled - and, when we sent our plan of operations to them, they were in the middle of a "flux" (the flux being the
California Desert Protection Act) and they didn't respond within 30 days - and the law says that if they don't give you a "no" within 30 days, then
it is "yes". So, we still have an open-ended plan of operations that they cannot do anything about, as long as we keep doing our part.

Beth
 

HI Luv, come to Mexico. Here you go to the mining agency, file your claim along with a filing fee - depending upon how much land you are filing upon - it is registered, you are given priority on the land, then you have so many days to post a mining agency certified surveyor's report on the location and dimensions of your claim. If nothing is wrong, and there are no contesting claims, you are issued a title for 50 years.

Twice a year you are required to pay a gradually escalating tax based upon how much land is in your claim, and how long you have had it.

Of course, after a certain size claim, you are also required to file a yearly work report or development on the claim, plus any geological work done..

My taxes run to $10,000 a year.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Jose,

They certainly do it differently - but, filing and having a claim, and patenting a claim, are two entirely different things (here).

So, in Mexico, you cannot ever get complete title to the land?

Beth
 

To Beth's query I would add, if given a fifty year lease, is subletting permitted. e.g. Got a good gold claim and acquires the lease can they then sublet the lease to a real mining operation for a portion of the profits, or a fixed amount per month/year etc?
 

good evening Beth, Bill: Beth you posted -->So, in Mexico, you cannot ever get
complete title to the land?

*****
Basically the same as the US, THE STATE OWNS THE LAND and minerals, but you get
priority use of the land with inheritance rights, providing you keep up the taxes, etc.
-- don't pay your taxes on time and see what rights you have.

Of course surface and mineral rights are both retained by the state.

'All' mineral claims may be sold, traded, leased, or whatever, the same as the normal
land surface rights.

Mineral usage has priority, within reason. theoretically one cannot keep you from physically
walking over anyone's land prospecting. and as a secondary thing, if an irate rancher is
looking at you over a shotgun it is best to retire quietly.

As far as digging holes you must have permission.

Naturally this is a broad coverage statement, but you get the idea..

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Jose, Bill,

So, the only difference is the "patenting" potential (saying potential because of the moratorium).

There was a time, that an American could only own 49% of a claim in Mexico. That has changed now. Thankfully. :laughing7:

Beth
 

It is a big problem dealing with city, state, and federal governments. Good luck to all.
 

Man you got that right ! I have found no less than 5 sites in Texas and all have been taken by gov.
 

The state of Texas is an issue in itself - it doesn't have the Federal land that other states like Arizona, New Mexico, California and the other western states do.

I'm showing a map of Texas and one of Arizona - just to show you the difference - those little colored spots is different kinds of public land - you will notice that Texas has very little - Arizona has a lot.

Beth
 

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Frankn said:
One of the things was the desert protection act which was designed to protect the desert tortoise. There was a rigged count of the turtles to back it. The act gave a blank check to the NPS to buy so many acres and to take desired land from the BLM which it did. The land it took from the BLM were selected sites where caches had been buried. The radical environmentalist are behind most of this. Look at the Charles Wilson pirate treasure. The NPS took over that part of the island where the treasure is buried. It is a national seasure. You cant even detect in the sandy beach! The big problem is people with detectors don't send e mail to their reps. in Washington and the big environmental orgs. do. It cost nothing to send an e mail get off your duffs everyone!!
I've yet to see one single viable piece of documentation that shows ANY desert tortoise squished by a dune buggy or dirtbike.

At the risk of sounding goofy, the conspiracy people are starting to sound credible. NFS closed an area of the Grand Canyon where it is rumored a cave full of Egyptian artifacts were found. Supposedly even the Ranger directly in charge of the area isn't allowed to enter this area? I always thought finds of this type were hidden or spirited away so our history books wouldn't have to be re-written & the archies wouldn't be proved wrong in their theories and hypothesis. Example Christopher Columbus first to discover America before the Vikings & other Norsemen:icon_scratch:
 

I spent, literally, years - fighting the desert protection act.

What they do not want the general public to know - but was proven - not only by government studies, but by studies done by environmentalist groups is this: People are NOT the reason for the demise of the desert tortoise - it is crows. Apparently, tortoise eggs are a highly sought after delicacy by birds in the desert.

The environmentalist groups know that - the government knows that - it didn't matter. The reports are stashed away under "S" for shhhhhhh.

Beth
 

GrayCloud said:
Frankn, You Sir are sadly correct. If we continue down this path, we will loose all. :(

what we can do? ???
 

Well guys you all know that the Constitution says we can take over and redo the government if we want to...I am ready---maybe we can just form a group of like minded people and keep telling everyone we want to take back our country and that includes the Federal government being abolished going back to states having controll and the fed only issuing money and providing for the common defence--the only thing they are constitutionally allowed to do!
 

Curtis,

I'm with you - though, there are folks who have been fighting this fight for many years - the fight to keep our public lands.

It is indicative of how a few groups can tell lie after lie - if you have the right "commercials" - and make hundreds of thousands of people believe that they are "saving" the world.

I do not advocate donating to anyone, but, I have seen organizations like PLP and Rocky Mountain Legal Foundation fight the good fight for many people in our situation, and others - like ranchers, folks in the lumber businesses and all those other "outdoor" folks who don't fit into the Bambi-flowers, birds and hiking trail categories.

Also, we have several states who are still pro-people and the public lands, who fight for our rights.

We need to get involved with all those organizations who are like minded - with ONE major caveat - we cannot be like the Sierra Club and Nature's Conservancy kinds of folks - we cannot deny activities just because WE don't like them. (that's what they do, we don't want to be like that, imo).

Beth
 

psst -- the US GOVT of various types (federal , state & local) has OWNED all the land since day 1 * -- land taxes were the original "money maker' funding source for american govt funding-- land taxes were how the various levels of govt made money to operate on -- each year the "so called' land owners had to pay a tax (fee) to the govt to keep the very land its said they own -- think you own your home --fine try not playing the land taxes on the land the house sits on and see what happens as you get kicked out and they sell the land and the home on it for "back taxes owed" *

since you will NEVER finally own the land tax free * it is never really "yours" -- you might build upon it --or mine or log it but it still not really "yours" --in effect you just got the cheapest lease.

and if the govt REALLY wants a bit of land for whatever reason and you the lawful "owner" trys to say NO , they will just go "imment domain" and take it from you , paying you what they feel is fair * WHICH IN MANY CASES IS A JOKE.

folks the GOVT deals the cards , and they are using a stacked deck and your forced to play "the game" like it or not cause its the only game in town , sadly the govt we have today would have made the founding fathers cry in disgust.
 

Ivan,

You do realize that I hate it when you are right, don't you????

Legally, they own nothing - in reality - they control everything.

Beth
 

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